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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

As I picked up two OEM Cleveland Brake Discs at Vans this morning (ouch), I asked what the latest RV-10 order was.  

Patrick Kelly just committed to kit #40937.  I had such high hopes for kit #1,000 sold before OSH '09 and seeing Tim lead a formation of Ten RV-10s over the field as the rest of us look up from RV parking or elsewhere.  

John Cox  

#600  

    [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

Keep Dreamin' John......  I think we'll see 1000 easy enough...maybe

or maybe not before OSH 2009...certainly by OSH 2010.  But I won't

hold my breath for a formation of 10 RV-10's.   For one, I'm not

qualified to lead such a thing.  And the same token goes for so

many of the RV-10 community.  I'd have a hard time finding 10

RV-10 builders that I'd trust (myself included) to fly in one

formation.  It's tougher than it looks.  Then there's the OSH

approval.  Maybe someday we'll get a group motivated to go and

get the training and do the photo shoot, but until then, I

think seeing 2 or 3 together is great.



Fly safe!



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   As I picked up two OEM Cleveland Brake Discs at Vans this morning 

 (ouch), I asked what the latest RV-10 order was.

 

 Patrick Kelly just committed to kit #40937.  I had such high hopes for 

 kit #1,000 sold before OSH '09 and seeing Tim lead a formation of Ten 

 RV-10s over the field as the rest of us look up from RV parking or 

 elsewhere.

 

 John Cox

 

 #600

ncol(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:09 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

I'll do my best to join any formation for 2010 at Osh. I did some air  

to air pics with a very skilled pilot, and was simply amazed at how  

much work it was as 110 knots in still air. I have a lot of respect  

for those aerobatic formations now. But if we're going to do it, I'll  

get the training.

Neil

On 10/02/2009, at 9:34 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Keep Dreamin' John......  I think we'll see 1000 easy enough...maybe

 or maybe not before OSH 2009...certainly by OSH 2010.  But I won't

 hold my breath for a formation of 10 RV-10's.   For one, I'm not

 qualified to lead such a thing.  And the same token goes for so

 many of the RV-10 community.  I'd have a hard time finding 10

 RV-10 builders that I'd trust (myself included) to fly in one

 formation.  It's tougher than it looks.  Then there's the OSH

 approval.  Maybe someday we'll get a group motivated to go and

 get the training and do the photo shoot, but until then, I

 think seeing 2 or 3 together is great.

 Fly safe!

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

 John Cox wrote:

> As I picked up two OEM Cleveland Brake Discs at Vans this morning  

> (ouch), I asked what the latest RV-10 order was.

> Patrick Kelly just committed to kit #40937.  I had such high hopes  

> for kit #1,000 sold before OSH '09 and seeing Tim lead a formation  

> of Ten RV-10s over the field as the rest of us look up from RV  

> parking or elsewhere.

> John Cox

> #600

N520TX

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 9

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

As Neil says, it's a surprising amount of work. Some find it very 

satisfying, others not so much - it's not everyones cup of tea. For anyone 

who wants to get their feet wet, there are several *free* clinics held at 

various places throughout the country each year. The next one is mid April 

in the Atlanta area. These are tailored toward the total newbies and in my 

opinion worth ever penny and more.



At the very least, you'll get to ride left seat while an experienced pilot 

is right/back seat to take you through what the picture and action is like 

up close.



Food for thought.



Ron



---

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:49 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

I have flown my 10 in the proper wing position on a few occasions.  As far 

as the airframe goes the issues are minor and relate to a little 

inconvenience with the sight picture in the right wing position.  General 

handling qualities like the other models of RVs make the 10 a good formation 

airplane.  Mixing the 10 with other RV types would probably not be advised 

or look good unless the 10 was in separated lead or trail position due to 

the difference in size.  A formation of just 10s would be awesome.



Tim's comments are spot on with regard to training.  There are at least two 

large FAA recognized training organizations to qualify formation pilots. 

The FAST program and Stu McCurdy's Formation Flight Incorporated.  Both 

include extensive ground and flight training leading to a certification 

card.  This certification is required to fly in FAA wavered airspace such as 

Oshkosh and Sun & Fun.  The procedures and standards are well defined and 

very well standardized.  Pilots completing the training can have confidence 

in other pilots who have also completed the program.



Formation flying can be very satisfying, will dramatically improve ones 

overall flying skills, is serious business and can be a lot of fun.  There 

have been fatalities even among serious trained pilots so it should be 

approached with the respect it deserves.



Dick Sipp

N110DV 110 hours (coincidentally) 

FFI Wingman



---

Deems Davis

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 925

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

I'm on thin ice here, but I was of the impression that the enclosed 

cabin cover, and lack a rearward visibility make the -10 a poor 

candidate for formation flying/work.



Deems Davis # 406

'Its all done....Its just not put together'

http://deemsrv10.com/



Ron Walker wrote:

[quote] 



 As Neil says, it's a surprising amount of work. Some find it very 

 satisfying, others not so much - it's not everyones cup of tea. For 

 anyone who wants to get their feet wet, there are several *free* 

 clinics held at various places throughout the country each year. The 

 next one is mid April in the Atlanta area. These are tailored toward 

 the total newbies and in my opinion worth ever penny and more.



 At the very least, you'll get to ride left seat while an experienced 

 pilot is right/back seat to take you through what the picture and 

 action is like up close.



 Food for thought.



 Ron



 ---

scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

Tim, your still dangerous!

You can be my wingman anytime!

 

do not archive

Scott SchmidtCell 801-718-1277scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com



From: Tim  Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, February 9, 2009 1:34:17 PM

Subject: Re: Dreams of 1,000



 --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>



Keep Dreamin' John......  I think we'll see 1000 easy enough...maybe

or maybe not before OSH 2009...certainly by OSH 2010.  But I won't

hold my breath for a formation of 10 RV-10's.   For one, I'm not

qualified to lead such a thing.  And the same token goes for so

many of the RV-10 community.  I'd have a hard time finding 10

RV-10 builders that I'd trust (myself included) to fly in one

formation.  It's tougher than it looks.  Then there's the OSH

approval.  Maybe someday we'll get a group motivated to go and

get the training and do the photo shoot, but until then, I

think seeing 2 or 3 together is great.



Fly safe!



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John Cox wrote:

[quote] As I picked up two OEM Cleveland [quote][b]

ron.mcgann(at)baesystems.
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:33 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

I luv the quotes from 'Pop Gun'!!



 [quote]         From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott    Schmidt

Sent: Tuesday, 10 February 2009 2:52 PM

To:    rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Dreams of    1,000

   

   Tim,    your still dangerous!

You can be my wingman anytime!

   

do not archive

Scott    SchmidtCell    801-718-1277scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

   



   

 



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your computer."



[b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

HA!! Yeah, we have had some fun and some time flying side

by side to get to know eachother a bit, haven't we. 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Scott Schmidt wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Tim, your still dangerous!

 You can be my wingman anytime!

  

 do not archive

 

 Scott Schmidt

 Cell 801-718-1277

 scottmschmidt(at)yahoo.com

 

 

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* Tim Olson <Tim(at)MyRV10.com>

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Sent:* Monday, February 9, 2009 1:34:17 PM

 *Subject:* Re: Dreams of 1,000

 

 

 <mailto:Tim(at)myrv10.com>>

 

 Keep Dreamin' John......  I think we'll see 1000 easy enough...maybe

 or maybe not before OSH 2009...certainly by OSH 2010.  But I won't

 hold my breath for a formation of 10 RV-10's.  For one, I'm not

 qualified to lead such a thing.  And the same token goes for so

 many of the RV-10 community.  I'd have a hard time finding 10

 RV-10 builders that I'd trust (myself included) to fly in one

 formation.  It's tougher than it looks.  Then there's the OSH

 approval.  Maybe someday we'll get a group motivated to go and

 get the training and do the photo shoot, but until then, I

 think seeing 2 or 3 together is great.

 

 Fly safe!

 

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 do not archive

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

Trust me, when you're in the formation, you don't have time to

look behind you.  It would be nice to have more viz for

spotting everyone and getting together in formation, but

you don't have much time for looking around when you're

actually in formation.  I'm absolutely no expert, and

I know it must get easier as you spend countless hours

on it, but it's very hard to hold position doing anything

but keeping your eyes on the plane you're lined up with.

That's why if the leader goes into the ground, sometimes

the rest follow...they don't have time to know it's coming.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Deems Davis wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'm on thin ice here, but I was of the impression that the enclosed 

 cabin cover, and lack a rearward visibility make the -10 a poor 

 candidate for formation flying/work.

 

 Deems Davis # 406

 'Its all done....Its just not put together'

 http://deemsrv10.com/

N520TX

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 9

Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:51 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

That about sums it up - you follow lead, and secondarily 'dress' off the guy 

next to you on the other side of lead. I've never looked over my shoulder at 

who is leading off of me.



Ron



---

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

Agreed. Another aircraft within a quarter mile; no thanks. Twenty years or

so ago I and an instrument student left for OSH out TUL with an IFR

clearance on a VFR day. Another VFR pilot ask to tag along (sort of loose

deuce) and we would keep in contact on the second radio. When crossing the

Mississippi River near St. Louis, visibility had dropped to about 1/2 mile

and I told my student I would check on the VFR pilot to see if he was still

on frequency. To my surprise he said "check your 4 o'clock" and there he was

at about 1/4 mile. That's close enough for me. 





From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com

[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Olson

Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:34 PM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Dreams of 1,000






Keep Dreamin' John......  I think we'll see 1000 easy enough...maybe or

maybe not before OSH 2009...certainly by OSH 2010.  But I won't

hold my breath for a formation of 10 RV-10's.   For one, I'm not

qualified to lead such a thing.  And the same token goes for so many of the

RV-10 community.  I'd have a hard time finding 10 RV-10 builders that I'd

trust (myself included) to fly in one formation.  It's tougher than it

looks.  Then there's the OSH approval.  Maybe someday we'll get a group

motivated to go and get the training and do the photo shoot, but until then,

I think seeing 2 or 3 together is great.



Fly safe!



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

John Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   As I picked up two OEM Cleveland Brake Discs at Vans this morning 

 (ouch), I asked what the latest RV-10 order was.

 

 Patrick Kelly just committed to kit #40937.  I had such high hopes for 

 kit #1,000 sold before OSH '09 and seeing Tim lead a formation of Ten 

 RV-10s over the field as the rest of us look up from RV parking or 

 elsewhere.

 

 John Cox

 

 #600

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

David McNeill wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Agreed. Another aircraft within a quarter mile; no thanks. Twenty years or

 so ago I and an instrument student left for OSH out TUL with an IFR

 clearance on a VFR day. Another VFR pilot ask to tag along (sort of loose

 deuce) and we would keep in contact on the second radio. When crossing the

 Mississippi River near St. Louis, visibility had dropped to about 1/2 mile

 and I told my student I would check on the VFR pilot to see if he was still

 on frequency. To my surprise he said "check your 4 o'clock" and there he was

 at about 1/4 mile. That's close enough for me. 

Well, you're just not a candidate for formation flying.  That's not a 
	


bad thing.  It isn't for everyone.  Those of us that fly that way look 

at it as just another flying skill.  It takes training, practice, and 

more practice.  Formation flying isn't about how close you can get, but 

how it looks to those on the ground.  Spacing is important to have a 

balanced group of airplanes.  I like to fly formation when I'm going 

places with other airplanes.  It makes the trip go faster as I'm 

intensely focused on that other airplane.  Sometimes I get too close for 

their comfort, and they let me know so I can pick another 'sight 

picture' further out.  I don't call 1/4 mile (1300 feet) 'in formation'. 



Linn

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:41 am Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

Agreed. Its something I could do if I wanted to expend the effort but I

don't. 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

Linn, personally, I agree with you.  I love flying side by side.

It makes the time go quicker, and you can have a lot of fun

being 50' (or less) away if you're careful.  With only 2 planes

involved, it isn't such a big problem.  Make it 3 and bring

them in to less than 50' and you are really changing the

amount of workload.  Bring them in to 15' and it's nonstop

hard work.  I really enjoy flying side by side with people.

It's some of the best fun I've had, flying with Vic, and with

Scott, Stein, and others.  But, I definitely realize that while

I may have fun with 2 or 3, there's no way without more

training, and also TRUST that I'd want to get more involved.

Trust is more important and involved than I think people

understand until they've been that close.  When I did the

3-ship, Josh B, a really REALLY good pilot, was the reason

I was able to be that close.  It was more his skill than mine.

It was harder than it looks in the photo...and it took

over a hundred photos to get that one.  To me, I don't know

that I know 10 RV-10 builders that I can say that I would

without a doubt trust to do a 10, or even 5 ship formation.

How COULD I know I could trust them. I know that 2 planes

together isn't so bad, but I know that 3 is real hard work.

The only way I know I could even begin to trust them, or me,

is to take training, and then at least prove it enough to

have a card in my pocket.  Short of that, I don't think

I'd be willing to even be a part of a large formation,

and I'd seriously question someone's judgement if they

thought that I was qualified without carrying the card.

I think formation is a blast, and a great way to have fun.

I just think that it deserves a lot of respect for training

and skill.  I would encourage anyone who likes this sort of

thing to go for the training...I know I'd love to. Hope

they do something up by MSP some day.  Oh, and if you're

thinking you'll want to do formation, get a throttle

quadrant, not push-pulls.  From what I hear, you can't

really be a part of such things in most groups unless

you have a quadrant.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

linn Walters wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 David McNeill wrote:

> 

>

> Agreed. Another aircraft within a quarter mile; no thanks. Twenty 

> years or

> so ago I and an instrument student left for OSH out TUL with an IFR

> clearance on a VFR day. Another VFR pilot ask to tag along (sort of loose

> deuce) and we would keep in contact on the second radio. When crossing 

> the

> Mississippi River near St. Louis, visibility had dropped to about 1/2 

> mile

> and I told my student I would check on the VFR pilot to see if he was 

> still

> on frequency. To my surprise he said "check your 4 o'clock" and there 

> he was

> at about 1/4 mile. That's close enough for me. 

 Well, you're just not a candidate for formation flying.  That's not a 

 bad thing.  It isn't for everyone.  Those of us that fly that way look 

 at it as just another flying skill.  It takes training, practice, and 

 more practice.  Formation flying isn't about how close you can get, but 

 how it looks to those on the ground.  Spacing is important to have a 

 balanced group of airplanes.  I like to fly formation when I'm going 

 places with other airplanes.  It makes the trip go faster as I'm 

 intensely focused on that other airplane.  Sometimes I get too close for 

 their comfort, and they let me know so I can pick another 'sight 

 picture' further out.  I don't call 1/4 mile (1300 feet) 'in formation'. 

 Linn

N520TX

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 9

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

 	  Quote: 	
		    Oh, and if you're

 thinking you'll want to do formation, get a throttle

 quadrant, not push-pulls.  From what I hear, you can't

 really be a part of such things in most groups unless

 you have a quadrant.



 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying




	


I have a quadrant in my 7 - but I also know alot of others that don't, they 

have the normal push/pull throttle cables. The only real 'rule' for 

formation is that it *not* be a vernier type of cable. Flying close 

formation is constant throttle adjustments and they have to happen fluidly.



Ron

ncol(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:23 am Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

I would second the throttle quadrant comment. That was the main thing  

I noticed when we did our air to air pics. We were so close to the  

camera ship (a C182) that the photographer used a standard lens. My co- 

pilot, Dave Philips (who actually flew, and was an instructor for our  

airforce aerobatics team), was constantly on the throttle. There  

wasn't a moment it wasn't moving. It was hard work.

Each year we get a new aerobatics team, so their training program must  

work. Dave had never flown an RV10 before, & was instantly at home in  

it. The airtrainers our airforce uses has the same IO540, so it  

probably wasn't too great a jump.

It was certainly scary being that close!

We may not have 10 RV10 flyers with that level of skill now, but given  

a year and half lead time, & the will power to do it, I'm sure it  

could be done. Our problem in NZ is finding another RV10 to practice  

with. Anyone want to bring their's over?

On 11/02/2009, at 6:21 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Linn, personally, I agree with you.  I love flying side by side.

 It makes the time go quicker, and you can have a lot of fun

 being 50' (or less) away if you're careful.  With only 2 planes

 involved, it isn't such a big problem.  Make it 3 and bring

 them in to less than 50' and you are really changing the

 amount of workload.  Bring them in to 15' and it's nonstop

 hard work.  I really enjoy flying side by side with people.

 It's some of the best fun I've had, flying with Vic, and with

 Scott, Stein, and others.  But, I definitely realize that while

 I may have fun with 2 or 3, there's no way without more

 training, and also TRUST that I'd want to get more involved.

 Trust is more important and involved than I think people

 understand until they've been that close.  When I did the

 3-ship, Josh B, a really REALLY good pilot, was the reason

 I was able to be that close.  It was more his skill than mine.

 It was harder than it looks in the photo...and it took

 over a hundred photos to get that one.  To me, I don't know

 that I know 10 RV-10 builders that I can say that I would

 without a doubt trust to do a 10, or even 5 ship formation.

 How COULD I know I could trust them. I know that 2 planes

 together isn't so bad, but I know that 3 is real hard work.

 The only way I know I could even begin to trust them, or me,

 is to take training, and then at least prove it enough to

 have a card in my pocket.  Short of that, I don't think

 I'd be willing to even be a part of a large formation,

 and I'd seriously question someone's judgement if they

 thought that I was qualified without carrying the card.

 I think formation is a blast, and a great way to have fun.

 I just think that it deserves a lot of respect for training

 and skill.  I would encourage anyone who likes this sort of

 thing to go for the training...I know I'd love to. Hope

 they do something up by MSP some day.  Oh, and if you're

 thinking you'll want to do formation, get a throttle

 quadrant, not push-pulls.  From what I hear, you can't

 really be a part of such things in most groups unless

 you have a quadrant.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 linn Walters wrote:

> 

> >

> David McNeill wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Agreed. Another aircraft within a quarter mile; no thanks. Twenty  

>> years or

>> so ago I and an instrument student left for OSH out TUL with an IFR

>> clearance on a VFR day. Another VFR pilot ask to tag along (sort  

>> of loose

>> deuce) and we would keep in contact on the second radio. When  

>> crossing the

>> Mississippi River near St. Louis, visibility had dropped to about  

>> 1/2 mile

>> and I told my student I would check on the VFR pilot to see if he  

>> was still

>> on frequency. To my surprise he said "check your 4 o'clock" and  

>> there he was

>> at about 1/4 mile. That's close enough for me.

> Well, you're just not a candidate for formation flying.  That's not  

> a bad thing.  It isn't for everyone.  Those of us that fly that way  

> look at it as just another flying skill.  It takes training,  

> practice, and more practice.  Formation flying isn't about how  

> close you can get, but how it looks to those on the ground.   

> Spacing is important to have a balanced group of airplanes.  I like  

> to fly formation when I'm going places with other airplanes.  It  

> makes the trip go faster as I'm intensely focused on that other  

> airplane.  Sometimes I get too close for their comfort, and they  

> let me know so I can pick another 'sight picture' further out.  I  

> don't call 1/4 mile (1300 feet) 'in formation'. 

> Linn

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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

My thoughts:

Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Linn, personally, I agree with you.  I love flying side by side.

 It makes the time go quicker, and you can have a lot of fun

 being 50' (or less) away if you're careful.  With only 2 planes

 involved, it isn't such a big problem.  Make it 3 and bring

 them in to less than 50' and you are really changing the

 amount of workload.  Bring them in to 15' and it's nonstop

 hard work.

For most planes 15' puts your wing inside the 'lead' wing, and to look 

good that close, you're forward of his tail.  That isn't a good spot.  

To be safe, you need to have a clear path ahead and sideways so that if 

you're 'lead' has a problem, rapid slowing or rapid turn you don't collide.

 	  Quote: 	
		     I really enjoy flying side by side with people.

 It's some of the best fun I've had, flying with Vic, and with

 Scott, Stein, and others.  But, I definitely realize that while

 I may have fun with 2 or 3, there's no way without more

 training, and also TRUST that I'd want to get more involved.

 Trust is more important and involved than I think people

 understand until they've been that close.  When I did the

 3-ship, Josh B, a really REALLY good pilot, was the reason

 I was able to be that close.  It was more his skill than mine.

 It was harder than it looks in the photo...and it took

 over a hundred photos to get that one.  To me, I don't know

 that I know 10 RV-10 builders that I can say that I would

 without a doubt trust to do a 10, or even 5 ship formation.

Large formations are really small formations of  4 ship (most common) or 

5 ship (rare, I think)

 	  Quote: 	
		   How COULD I know I could trust them. I know that 2 planes

 together isn't so bad, but I know that 3 is real hard work.

 The only way I know I could even begin to trust them, or me,

 is to take training, and then at least prove it enough to

 have a card in my pocket.

Training is really the first step.  The blue card is a 'satisfaction' 

thing .... proof of a job well done .... kinda like an IFR ticket.

 	  Quote: 	
		     Short of that, I don't think

 I'd be willing to even be a part of a large formation,

 and I'd seriously question someone's judgement if they

 thought that I was qualified without carrying the card.

This is really an issue between you and your 'close companion'.  I don't 

have a blue card because there aren't any groups that fly a Pitts or 

Traumahawk, my two rides at this time, and the safest scenario is to not 

mix aircraft types.

 	  Quote: 	
		   I think formation is a blast, and a great way to have fun.

 I just think that it deserves a lot of respect for training

 and skill.

Absolutely.  There's no safer way to get the experience.

 	  Quote: 	
		     I would encourage anyone who likes this sort of

 thing to go for the training...I know I'd love to.

I plan on it when my -10 is done.  Mike Stewart is near Atlanta and 

that's probably where I'll get my official training.

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hope

 they do something up by MSP some day.  Oh, and if you're

 thinking you'll want to do formation, get a throttle

 quadrant, not push-pulls.  From what I hear, you can't

 really be a part of such things in most groups unless

 you have a quadrant.

The problem is the vernier push-pull throttle cables.  There is the 

possibility that you may need full throttle (or idle) instantly and the 

vernier button is something that may get overlooked in the panic.  

There's the problem in formation where you're constantly changing 

throttle and the 'button' keeps you from changing the throttle easily.  

People flying formation with vernier throttles use a clamp to keep the 

button pushed, and the clamp isn't easily removed. 

FWIW, I have some Grumman friends that love to fly formation, and one of 

the aircraft that flies formation with them .... is an RV-6.

Linn

 	  Quote: 	

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

 linn Walters wrote:

> 

> <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>

>

> David McNeill wrote:

>> 

>>

>> Agreed. Another aircraft within a quarter mile; no thanks. Twenty 

>> years or

>> so ago I and an instrument student left for OSH out TUL with an IFR

>> clearance on a VFR day. Another VFR pilot ask to tag along (sort of 

>> loose

>> deuce) and we would keep in contact on the second radio. When 

>> crossing the

>> Mississippi River near St. Louis, visibility had dropped to about 

>> 1/2 mile

>> and I told my student I would check on the VFR pilot to see if he 

>> was still

>> on frequency. To my surprise he said "check your 4 o'clock" and 

>> there he was

>> at about 1/4 mile. That's close enough for me. 

> Well, you're just not a candidate for formation flying.  That's not a 

> bad thing.  It isn't for everyone.  Those of us that fly that way 

> look at it as just another flying skill.  It takes training, 

> practice, and more practice.  Formation flying isn't about how close 

> you can get, but how it looks to those on the ground.  Spacing is 

> important to have a balanced group of airplanes.  I like to fly 

> formation when I'm going places with other airplanes.  It makes the 

> trip go faster as I'm intensely focused on that other airplane.  

> Sometimes I get too close for their comfort, and they let me know so 

> I can pick another 'sight picture' further out.  I don't call 1/4 

> mile (1300 feet) 'in formation'. 

> Linn

>

Dick Sipp

Joined: 11 Jan 2006
Posts: 215
Location: Hope, MI

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:36 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

Good point with the throttle comments Tim.  The restriction is actually 

against a vernier type throttle that requires a push lock to be released to 

make large power changes like most prop levers.  The normal push-pull type 

works fine.  You are right that many folks prefer the quadrant type.



Dick "Frogman" Sipp



---

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: Dreams of 1,000

It's an excellent platform for wing position.



A little tougher for lead due to poor aft visibility.



grumpy



On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:11 PM, Deems Davis wrote:



[quote] 



 I'm on thin ice here, but I was of the impression that the enclosed  

 cabin cover, and lack a rearward visibility make the -10 a poor  

 candidate for formation flying/work.



 Deems Davis # 406

 'Its all done....Its just not put together'

 http://deemsrv10.com/



 Ron Walker wrote:

> 

>

> As Neil says, it's a surprising amount of work. Some find it very  

> satisfying, others not so much - it's not everyones cup of tea. For  

> anyone who wants to get their feet wet, there are several *free*  

> clinics held at various places throughout the country each year.  

> The next one is mid April in the Atlanta area. These are tailored  

> toward the total newbies and in my opinion worth ever penny and more.

>

> At the very least, you'll get to ride left seat while an  

> experienced pilot is right/back seat to take you through what the  

> picture and action is like up close.

>

> Food for thought.

>

> Ron

>

> ---

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