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WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:37 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

I can not tell you how much I hate being the guy who has one issue after another, but I have to say I expected to have a series of issues purchasing a plane.  I just didn't think they would all be so EXCITING.



So yesterday I had my instructor take my wife up in the Kitfox for a quick ride since she is half the owner and had never been up in it.  When they came back the turtle deck had popped out from under the green house (is this what the large sun roof window is called in this plane?) and was acting as a large scoop.  What I have been told was that they were doing some progressively steeper turns and on a right turn the instructor let the nose tuck in the turn which let the airspeed build a little, probably around 90-95 indicated, and then there was a "pop" and a "woosh".    Neither said where the trim ball was at the time, but I am sure it was not in the center.



We pulled the turtle deck off and reinstalled it and the front edge of it buts all the way against the metal strip which holds the gap under the window.  All DZUS fasteners (camlocks?) were installed and are as snug as I would expect.  So once again I am here with no ideas how to go about fixing this, or even if there is something to fix.  I am not sure what could have caused this to happen.  Any help is appreciated.



James

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

James, I read in my Avid manual of this happening if the windshield was cut to short and the turtle deck did not stuck under it far enough.  I thing they recommended 1.25" of turtle deck sticking under the windshield.  The fix was to drill out the rivets on the back edge of the windshield, slip a piece of aluminum between the windshield and the spacer to get the full 1.25" over lap.  Would only take an hour tops to make the quick fix!  I will dig through the files and see if I can find the drawing for you and get it posted in the next couple hours.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

here is some snake oil for today...... the service letter from Avid. This will take care of you!

Turtle deck service letter.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Turtle deck service letter.pdf

Filesize:

102.14 KB

Downloaded:

526 Time(s)

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 10:44 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

Thanks a bunch.  I read the letter and checked my measurements.  I am sitting at 1 1/2" so I am good according to the letter.  But I find it odd that they are measuring from the front edge of FC-3.  Why not state the minimum requirement as amount of over hang?  I have 5/8" of lexan that over laps the turtle deck, does this sound like the appropriate amount?

_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:11 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

NO, they state you need 1.25" overlap.  The drawing is a little hosed up, read the written description.  The letter kinda states why... it you dont have the overlap, and you are doing slips (could be an uncoordinated turn) you can pressure up the fuse and blammo you got a nice little speed brake right behind your head and soiled pair of shorts.  Not so bad if they are yours, but if you make the ole lady soil hers, you can expect some couch time in the near future and the playground is liable to be off limits for a very long time.



Do the fix they show and you will both be happier.

WurlyBird

Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 207
Location: North Pole, Alaska

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:58 am Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

I re-read it two more times, everything is indicating that the minimum required 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3.  Do you have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck?  Can I get a quick poll on this from a few people?  I can certainly see that the extra would help keep everything together.

Avid clip.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

21.75 KB

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_________________
James
Kitfox 3 / 582 / 70" IVO 2 blade GA
50 hrs on the 582 swapping for HKS 700E and Avid Cowl.

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

James. Looking at Lenoards drawing  C " frrom the front of FC-3 overlap" would not give you 1 1/4 overlap of the turtle deck. It would give you 1 1/4" minus the width of FC-28. Leonards drawing shows that dimention to be 5/8".



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford C IL





 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Re: New issue C turtle deck security

 From: james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil

 Date: Sun C 15 Feb 2009 11:58:42 -0800

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "WurlyBird" <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>

 

 I re-read it two more times C everything is indicating that the minimum required 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3. Do you have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck? Can I get a quick poll on this from a few people? I can certainly see that the extra would help keep everything together.

 

 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 4 hrs of instruction and climbing (I solo tomorrow)

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230377#230377

 

 

 

 

 Attachments: 

 

 http://forums.matronics.com//files/avid_clip_189.jpg

&gt=======================
	


[quote] 

 

 

   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

 	  WurlyBird wrote: 	
		  I re-read it two more times, everything is indicating that the minimum required 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3.  Do you have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck?  Can I get a quick poll on this from a few people?  I can certainly see that the extra would help keep everything together. 	




OK as I said the DRAWING is hosed... use it a REFERENCE to give you a visual on the fix... the written description states





The leading edge of the turtle deck must engage the skylight with a minimum overlap of 1 1/4"



This does not say from the edge of yada yada, it states OVERLAP period.  Go by the written letter not the drawing and you cant go wrong.



I put this on mine as I did not feel like having an in-flight air-conditioning system self activating at inopportune moments.

[/b]

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

marked up the PDF and reposted

EDIT* pdf did not attach

Turtle deck marked up.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Turtle deck marked up.pdf

Filesize:

115.52 KB

Downloaded:

551 Time(s)

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

This is an unfortunate circumstance where the "picture guy" and the  

"dialogue guy" did not get on the same page...literally....before  

this Service Bulletin went out.

It's too bad too, because it leaves us builders to try to figure out  

if the situation calls for the 1 -1/4" overlap of turledeck and  

skylight, or the "apparent"  5/8" of overlap as shown on the drawing.  

What do we follow...words or picture?



Just to interject my own situation, I followed the *Kitfox* drawing  

and dialogue, and mine came out closer to the 5/8" dimension. I have  

not had the trouble that James has had and I do a LOT of slips to  

both sides.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 15, 2009, at 2:58 PM, WurlyBird wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <james.t.trizzino(at)us.army.mil>



 I re-read it two more times, everything is indicating that the  

 minimum required 1 1/4" is measured from the front of FC-3.  Do you  

 have 1 1/4" of lexan that overlaps the turtle deck?  Can I get a  

 quick poll on this from a few people?  I can certainly see that the  

 extra would help keep everything together.



 --------

 James

 Kitfox 3 / 582 / GSC prop

 4 hrs of instruction and  climbing (I solo tomorrow)





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30377#230377





 Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/avid_clip_189.jpg

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

On Sun, February 15, 2009 2:38 pm, akflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 marked up the PDF and reposted


	


Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However, I must point out that the markup did

not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum posting just fine.

click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup.



<http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=14596&sid=7a9dbd247008ae785633dd9eb88241c2>



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



 hander outer of humorless darwin awards





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30404#230404






	




-- 

Paul Franz

425.440.9505 (O)

425.241.1618 (C)

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

 	  Paul A. Franz, P.E. wrote: 	
		  On Sun, February 15, 2009 2:38 pm, akflyer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 marked up the PDF and reposted



	


Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However, I must point out that the markup did

not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum posting just fine.

click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup.



<http>



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 --------

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

 Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 Soldotna AK

 Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 582 IVO IFA

 Full Lotus 1260

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



 hander outer of humorless darwin awards





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30404#230404

	




-- 

Paul Franz

425.440.9505 (O)

425.241.1618 (C) 	


Paul, I think it is because the PDF did not attach right when I first made the post.  I edited the post and now it shows up on the forum, but not to anyone who is just using emails.  For the sake of all, I will post the attachment again with this reply.

Turtle deck marked up.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

Turtle deck marked up.pdf

Filesize:

115.52 KB

Downloaded:

466 Time(s)

patreilly43(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Len C Thanks for info. I made my 2 piece windshield cabin top same as original it has about 5/8 " overlap. Guess I'll have to install the aluminum overhang addition to be safe. Hard to believe 5/8" isn't adequate.

 do not archive



Pat Reilly

Mod 3 582 Rebuild

Rockford C IL





 	  Quote: 	
		   Date: Sun C 15 Feb 2009 16:04:29 -0800

 Subject: Re: Re: New issue C turtle deck security

 From: paul(at)eucleides.com

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz" <paul(at)eucleides.com>

 

 

 On Sun C February 15 C 2009 2:38 pm C akflyer wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com>

 >

 > marked up the PDF and reposted

 

 Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However C I must point out that the markup did

 not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum posting just fine.

 click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup.

 

 <http://forums.matronics.com/download.php?id=14596&sid=7a9dbd247008ae785633dd9eb88241c2>

 

 >

 > --------

 > DO NOT ARCHIVE

 > Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

 > Soldotna AK

 > Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

 > 582 IVO IFA

 > Full Lotus 1260

 > #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

 >

 > hander outer of humorless darwin awards

 >

 >

 >

 >

 > Read this topic online here:

 >

 > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=230404#230404

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 

 

 -- 

 Paul Franz

 425.440.9505 (O)

 425.241.=====================

 _================

 

 

 


	


  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Perfectly clear, but is this 1-1/4" dimension really needed? The  

Kitfox seems to work ok with the 5/8" overlap, and this is the first  

time we've (I've, at least) heard of the turtledeck blowing out...or  

is it? Somebody with more time in type and on this list should be  

able to answer this question. Is there a Service Bulletin out on the  

Kitfox? Remember this is an Avid Service Bulletin. I'm not saying  

anything bad about Avids, just trying to understand why no SB on a  

Kitfox, if indeed there are none.

Next is the history of this particular plane. Just the other day we  

had a flutter problem on this plane. Now we've got a turtledeck  

trying to exit the plane. How about thinking a bit further into this  

plane, and wondering if maybe the plane was sold because it exhibited  

some of these strange behaviors. How about a weak framework? How  

about a broken tube joint somewhere hidden from normal view that  

would allow the framework to flex? Did the new owner take the seats  

out, and look for any new welds, or broken ones? Are all the camlocks  

present and accounted for?...my plane has 9 of them holding the  

t'deck on...factory count. Are they tight? How thick is the  

windshield/skylight material? How many machine screws hold the rear  

of the skylight in place, or are they rivets as the Kitfox and the  

Avid drawings show? I chose to use machine screws and nutplates on my  

installation after I read of so many builders needing to replace  

windshields/skylights due to crazing/cracks, etc. That might account  

for some of the strength in that area that my plane apparently exhibits.

Remember this is a recently sold/purchased airplane....maybe the  

buyer need to do more than kick the tires and light 'er up.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying

On Feb 15, 2009, at 7:04 PM, Paul Franz wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Sun, February 15, 2009 2:38 pm, akflyer wrote:

> 

>

> marked up the PDF and reposted

 Excellent! Now this is perfectly clear. However, I must point out  

 that the markup did

 not get distributed to the e-mail list but it appears in the forum  

 posting just fine.

 click this link to see Leni's (Snakeman's) perfectly clear markup.

 <http://forums.matronics.com/download.php? 

 id=14596&sid=7a9dbd247008ae785633dd9eb88241c2>

>

> --------

> DO NOT ARCHIVE

> Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

> Soldotna AK

> Avid &quot;C&quot; / Mk IV

> 582 IVO IFA

> Full Lotus 1260

> #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

>

> hander outer of humorless darwin awards

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 30404#230404

>

>

 -- 

 Paul Franz

 425.440.9505 (O)

 425.241.1618 (C)

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Hard for me to believe too, Pat, but remember that this is an Avid  

Service Letter,  *undated*, and refers to slips with the door open.  

Maybe this was released before Kitfox broke away from the "parent"  

organization, and Kitfox strengthened something after this, rendering  

this SL non-applicable to the 'fox.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 605 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

New skis done and flying





On Feb 15, 2009, at 8:47 PM, patrick reilly wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Len, Thanks for info. I made my 2 piece windshield cabin top same  

 as original it has about 5/8 " overlap. Guess I'll have to install  

 the aluminum overhang addition to be safe. Hard to believe 5/8"  

 isn't adequate.

 do not archive



 Pat Reilly

 Mod 3 582 Rebuild

 Rockford, IL

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Tom Jones

Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

 	  Quote: 	
		  We pulled the turtle deck off and reinstalled it and the front edge of it buts all the way against the metal strip which holds the gap under the window. All DZUS fasteners (camlocks?) were installed and are as snug as I would expect. So once again I am here with no ideas how to go about fixing this, or even if there is something to fix. I am not sure what could have caused this to happen. Any help is appreciated. 



James 	




James, I just now went out and looked at my turtle deck.  Mine is a Classic 4 and I have never seen a Model III in person.  It may be different than a 4.  I see no way the leading edge can come out from under the skylight trailing edge without some significant permanent bending.



Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4 turtle deck.  Note the notch in the lower left where it fits around the rear spar carry through.  Also the stiffening angles riveted to the inside of the deck.  The camlock on the side near the leading edge.



The wear marks where it has been fitting shows 5/8 inch overlap under the skylight lexan.



Is it possible your turtle deck was installed with the leading edge on top of the trailing edge of the skylight by mistake before the flight?



I would not hesitate to install the mod posted for the avid if you can't find a logical reason for what happened.  It would be good to hear from some model III owners on this.



Edit,:Sorry about the wide picture, can't seem to fix it.  Sometimes this forum is a mystery to me.

Turtle deck.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

94 KB

Viewed:

15990 Time(s)

_________________
Tom Jones
Classic IV
503 Rotax, 72 inch Two blade Warp
Ellensburg, WA

sbennett3(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 7:39 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

On a long cross country with the turtle deck FULL of cargo this happened to me.  We landed at a controlled field that night and went home. When I returned the next day I noticed that it was the overloading of the turtledeck that caused this. I agree with the last post that maybe the deck was installed with the trailing edge over the lip.  I don't know what else to call it but if it got loud and windy and cold in the cockpit, that's probably what happened.  I'm not a builder, but this has happened to me as well... I bought a cargo sack from Kitfox and maybe we wont have to have this conversation again. Steve Bennett  Classic 4 1200  912  Durham NC. 

  

  

  

 In a message dated 02/15/09 22:15:27 Eastern Standard Time, nahsikhs(at)elltel.net writes:

 [quote]   .aolmailheader          {font-size:8pt; color:black; font-family:Arial} a.aolmailheader:link    {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:visited {color:magenta; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:active  {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal} a.aolmailheader:hover   {color:blue; text-decoration:underline; font-weight:normal}  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Tom Jones" <nahsikhs(at)elltel.net> 

 	  Quote: 	
		   We pulled the turtle deck off and reinstalled it and the front edge of it buts all the way against the metal strip which holds the gap under the window. All DZUS fasteners (camlocks?) were installed and are as snug as I would expect. So once again I am here with no ideas how to go about fixing this, or even if there is something to fix. I am not sure what could have caused this to happen. Any help is appreciated. 

 

 James 


	




James, I just now went out and looked at my turtle deck.  Mine is a Classic 4 and I have never seen a Model III in person.  It may be different than a 4.  I see no way the leading edge can come out from under the skylight trailing edge without some significant permanent bending. 



Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4 turtle deck.  Note the notch in the lower left where it fits ar  <  

  Access 350+ FREE radio stations anytime from anywhere on the web. Get the Radio Toolbar!

   [quote][b]

vetdrem

Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 62

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: New issue, turtle deck security

My model 3 only has about 3/8"overlap.  I have not had any problems with mine.  I just tried to push it out by hand, to see if i could cause it to come out, but even applying more force than I was comfortable doing, I could not get it to pop out..



Louie

Model 3 912ul

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

On Sun, February 15, 2009 7:13 pm, Tom Jones wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   


	


 	  Quote: 	
		   Attached is a picture of the inside of the leading edge on a Classic 4 turtle deck.

 Note the notch in the lower left where it fits around the rear spar carry through.

 Also the stiffening angles riveted to the inside of the deck.  The camlock on the side

 near the leading edge.


	


The attachment is actaully here:



<http://forums.matronics.com/files/turtle_deck_132.jpg>



Rather than the improperly shown link in the e-mail distributed to the KF List:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Attachments:



 http://forums.matronics.com//files/turtle_deck_603.jpg


	


Something goofy happens when a forum post with a picture gets sent to e-mail. Notice

the extra forward slash in the posted link? Just enough so that the matronics web

server can't resolve the file location.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: New issue, turtle deck security

Good post, Lynn.  All very good points.  I had a good look at mine, a S5 and 

same setup as the 3.  As far as I can see there is only one thing that can 

cause that leading edge to come out and that is extreme bending of the 

complete turtle deck itself.  That is what the long stiffeners are for and 

after fooling around with mine for a few minutes, I found that it just ain't 

gonna happen.  Before we all start tearing things apart and reinventing the 

wheel, lets first ensure there is a real inherent problem and not an 

isolated incident that is based on the method of fabrication.

Personally, I feel everyone should have a good look at theirs, but I don't 

think it's an issue.

Deke Morisse

Mikado Michigan

S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT

"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."

- Joseph Joubert

---

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