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russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

John

In re the recent talk about fuel tanks -- I've wondered why you have  

yours so high? It must reduce the power needed to get fuel to the  

engine, but must also raise the CG. Are there any noticeable handling  

differences between yours and a 'stock'

Mark III?

Russ

so not archive

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:03 pm Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

I've wondered why you have

 	  Quote: 	
		   yours so high? It must reduce the power needed to get fuel to the  engine, 

 but must also raise the CG. Are there any noticeable handling  differences 

 between yours and a 'stock'

 Mark III?

 Russ


	


Russ:



My fuel tank is high because where it was located was empty, open space in 

the standard mkIII.  25 gals fits that space perfect.  Homer left this space 

open to have 360 deg visibility.  My neck won't twist that far around.



Getting fuel to the engine with less power had nothing to do with the 

location of the tank.



I don't understand "raising the CG".  There are no noticeable handling 

differences between my mkIII and a stock mkIII.



Location of the tank did not affect fore and aft, or lateral cg.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:54 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

John, While pilots rarely, if ever, calculate the vertical CG position, it is a component of aircraft ground handling. This is one of the reasons why GA pilots, particularly those flying high wing aircraft with tanks in the wings, are taught proper positioning of the controls during taxi operations. 



Rick



On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 7:58 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

 

 

 I've wondered why you have

  	  Quote: 	
		   yours so high? It must reduce the power needed to get fuel to the  engine, but must also raise the CG. Are there any noticeable handling  differences between yours and a 'stock'

 Mark III?

 Russ

 	
 

 

 

 Russ:

 

 My fuel tank is high because where it was located was empty, open space in the standard mkIII.  25 gals fits that space perfect.  Homer left this space open to have 360 deg visibility.  My neck won't twist that far around.

  

 Getting fuel to the engine with less power had nothing to do with the location of the tank.

 

 I don't understand "raising the CG".  There are no noticeable handling differences between my mkIII and a stock mkIII.

 

 Location of the tank did not affect fore and aft, or lateral cg.

 

 john h

 mkIII 

 

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 [b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:11 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

At 06:51 AM 3/11/2009, Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  John, While pilots rarely, if ever, calculate the vertical CG position, it 

is a component of aircraft ground handling. This is one of the reasons why 

GA pilots, particularly those flying high wing aircraft with tanks in the 

wings, are taught proper positioning of the controls during taxi operations.


	


Proper positioning of the controls during taxi is to prevent the wind from 

lifting a wing and tipping the aircraft over; it has nothing to do with 

vertical CG.  Oh, the higher the CG the more "tippy" an aircraft might be 

once it starts to go over, but crosswind taxi technique should be used 

regardless of the vertical CG location of whether you're flying a high wing 

or low wing.  About the only time when the vertical CG location needs to be 

considered, unless it's in some extreme position where it could conceivably 

affect dynamic stability (not likely), is when the designer is locating the 

landing gear.



-Dana

--

  I love my country, but I fear my government.

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

First I have ever heard vertical CG, either in  rotary or fixed wing training.  Must have been dozing during that part of  class.

  

 I position controls on the ground depending on  wind, power, and braking.  With a lot of weight on tailwheel, main gear  moved forward, and wider track, I don't have to worry a lot about precise  positioning of controls on the ground, unless the wind is really  howling.

  

 Since I am primarily a Kolb pilot, do you think I  need to be concerned with vertical cg?

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    

John, While pilots rarely, if ever,    calculate the vertical CG position, it is a component of aircraft ground    handling. This is one of the reasons why GA pilots, particularly those flying    high wing aircraft with tanks in the wings, are taught proper positioning of    the controls during taxi operations.   



   Rick



    



[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

Speaking of tanks, do store bought and or custom  fuel tanks have to have 

 internal baffles?

  

 Vic

 xtra 912

   [quote][b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 7:28 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

John You're right on. And with all your time in Kolbs, whatever you're doing is right too. No need to worry about theoretical problems.

You position the controls properly on the ground, according to wind speed, direction, etc, and every pilot should. 

But lots don't, as you see all the time. A higher CG, produced by a higher fuel tank, would make the plane more prone to hit a wingtip IF you hotrodded around & made very sharp turns at fast taxi speeds. But it must also speed up your roll rate a little in  the air. I was just curious if you noticed any roll-rate difference when you fly a different Kolb.

Russ

do not archive



On Mar 11, 2009, at 9:24 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  First I have ever heard vertical CG, either in rotary or fixed wing training.  Must have been dozing during that part of class.

 

I position controls on the ground depending on wind, power, and braking.  With a lot of weight on tailwheel, main gear moved forward, and wider track, I don't have to worry a lot about precise positioning of controls on the ground, unless the wind is really howling.

 

Since I am primarily a Kolb pilot, do you think I need to be concerned with vertical cg?

 

john h

mkIII

 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   

John, While pilots rarely, if ever, calculate the vertical CG position, it is a component of aircraft ground handling. This is one of the reasons why GA pilots, particularly those flying high wing aircraft with tanks in the wings, are taught proper positioning of the controls during taxi operations.



Rick



 



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 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

---- Vic <vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net> wrote: 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Speaking of tanks, do store bought and or custom fuel tanks have to have 

 internal baffles?

 

 Vic

 xtra 912


	


Vic:



Guess a lot depends on the size of the tank.



My 25 gal tank is cross baffled.



The 18 gal tank in my FS was cross baffled.



Serves to purposes, maybe more.  One:  Keeps the fuel more or less in place.  Two:  Increases the strength of the fuel tank.



Can you think of anything else?  I can't.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 11, 2009 8:49 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

I was just  

 	  Quote: 	
		   curious if you noticed any roll-rate difference when you fly a  

 different Kolb.

 Russ

 
	




I don't notice any difference in roll rates, except between the long wing and short wing Kolbs.  The Sling Shot and the Fire Fly (with shortened aileron cord) have quick roll rates compared to the long wings.



On the ground, I don't have a problem with my mkIII.  I ground looped it, unintentional, initial arrival at the UL strip, Oskosh, and kept both mains on the ground.  Lost a tailwheel spring between Joliet, IL, and OSH.  Didn't know it until after I finished ground looping, got out and found the spring was missing.  Had a good ole OSH cross wind, dry grass, big ole ground loop before I knew it.  Taxiied over to the fence, got out, never said a word to anyone.  For all I know the spectators thought it was an intentional maneuver.  



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

vicsv(at)myfairpoint.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

John

 I should have been more specific. I found (boat)  bow tanks for a couple hundred that look 

 like they would fit pretty well up top behind heads  as mine doesn't turn around that far either.

 I can barely reach the flap handle.

 Just your oppinion, would an 19 gal wedge shaped  tank HAVE to be baffled? I don't know yet if it is.

  

 Vic

  Xtra 912

 3.5hrs legal insruction

  

   [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

 	  Quote: 	
		   Just your oppinion, would an 19 gal wedge shaped tank HAVE to be baffled? I don't know yet if it is.

 

 Vic

 
	




Vic:



I don't know that I can answer that.  I don't know how much a "baffleless" tank would affect flight and handling characteristics.



If it were my airplane, I'd spend the bucks, have an aluminum tank built to order with baffles.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

jimh474(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:46 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

I do believe that any tank over 10 gallons has to be  baffled.

  

 Jim Hauck

   [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:06 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

Vic

  

 Would you share with us what you found? I'm still  looking for a larger tank that I can put in my MKIIIC. I have been told the  New Kolb tanks will not fit. If a alternative tank looked good and priced right  I would consider one. If the tank didn't have baffles I would install  a small header tank 1-2 gallons below it. The header tank would supply a  constant flow of fuel in spite of any sloshing of fuel in a unbaffled main  tank.

  

 Again worth what you paid for it.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:33 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

Rick --



TNK 6 gallon tanks do fit in the MkIII Classic...  They did in mine, at least.



  -- Robert

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 1:05 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

 [quote]       Vic

  

 Would you share with us what you found? I'm still  looking for a larger tank that I can put in my MKIIIC. I have been told the  New Kolb tanks will not fit. If a alternative tank looked good and priced right  I would consider one. If the tank didn't have baffles I would install  a small header tank 1-2 gallons below it. The header tank would supply a  constant flow of fuel in spite of any sloshing of fuel in a unbaffled main  tank.

  

 Again worth what you paid for it.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

Robert 

  

 I wasn't clear. I was thinking about their large  aluminum tank that they make for the Xtra. The 6 gallon tanks will be my next  tanks if I don't find something bigger that isn't too expensive.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

  

 [quote]   ---

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:34 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

Ah!  Well, if you find something, please post it here.  I'm not too thrilled with the ultra-thin-walled 6 gallon tanks.  I haven't had any problems with them, but it wouldn't take much to puncture them.   Ask me how I know.  

 

  -- Robert

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]        Robert 

  

 I wasn't clear. I was thinking about their large  aluminum tank that they make for the Xtra. The 6 gallon tanks will be my next  tanks if I don't find something bigger that isn't too expensive.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

  

 

[quote]   ---

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

jb92563

Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 314
Location: Southern California

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Fjuel rtanks

Why do tanks have baffles?  



To prevent a shift in balance and to keep the fuel moving slowly in the tank during maneuvers, and reduce foaming/bubbles and currents.



If you don't think these things would be a problem then baffles are not critical.



Baffles don't hurt anything if they come with the tank already but they do give the tank more support and make it a bit more durable.

_________________
Ray

Kolb UltraStar (Cuyuna UL-202)
Moni MotorGlider
Schreder HP-11 Glider
Grob 109 Motorglider

Do Not Archive

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

I too share a concern about the plastic tanks.  They won't fail while you are cruising but duringa hard landing the impact could cause a split at the bottom.  --which is why I don't like inviting trouble with a hole drilled for bottom feed.

Mine are old and if I replace them it will be with a high tank, but then I have to keep in mind

my age and anticipated flying future.  I do have other hobbies.

BB

On 12, Mar 2009, at 3:33 PM, Robert Laird wrote:

[quote]Ah!  Well, if you find something, please post it here.  I'm not too thrilled with the ultra-thin-walled 6 gallon tanks.  I haven't had any problems with them, but it wouldn't take much to puncture them.   Ask me how I know.  

 

  -- Robert

On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 2:26 PM, Richard & Martha Neilsen <NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net (NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]  Robert 

  

 I wasn't clear. I was thinking about their large aluminum tank that they make for the Xtra. The 6 gallon tanks will be my next tanks if I don't find something bigger that isn't too expensive.

  

 Do not archive

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

  

 

[quote]  ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:53 pm Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

Rick N:

  

 I think the major problem with a larger unbaffled  tank is shift of weight more than a problem with fuel starvation.

  

 I may be wrong, but that is my theory.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

  	  Quote: 	
		       The header    tank would supply a constant flow of fuel in spite of any sloshing of fuel in    a unbaffled main tank.

    

    

    

   Rick Neilsen

    

	
   [quote][b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 12, 2009 1:10 pm Post subject: Fjuel rtanks

Rick C

  

   A couple of minutes ago I got home from having some heli-arcing done from a welder I just met.  This guy is awesome when it comes to aluminum welding.  His quality is excellent C and he specializes in aluminum.

   I had him remount the intake and outlet tubes on my intercooler C plus heli-arc all the pieces that make up the TBI intake assembly.  Almost 1 1/2 hours of welding....$80.  He has welded aluminum for over 25 years.

  

   The point is:  If you need someone to make an aluminum tank for you...he could be your guy.  I have a MkIII fuselage C same as yours C and could furnish the dimensions he'd need.

 Also C I have found an aluminum supplier that's about 100 miles from me (near Valley Engineering in Missouri) C that carries 2024T6 sheets.(any thickness)

  

   This offer to build tanks is also to The New Kolb Company C if they don't have an official custom tank builder.  I'm NOT trying to take away business from TNK.  If they have tanks that suit your needs C by all means go through them.  

   But C if someone is looking for a great aluminum welder C I just found one.

  

   As usual C just let me know if I can help.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII 

 

  From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Fjuel rtanks

Date: Thu C 12 Mar 2009 14:05:25 -0400



    Vic

  

 Would you share with us what you found? I'm still looking for a larger tank that I can put in my MKIIIC. I have been told the New Kolb tanks will not fit. If a alternative tank looked good and priced right I would consider one. If the tank didn't have baffles I would install a small header tank 1-2 gallons below it. The header tank would supply a constant flow of fuel in spite of any sloshing of fuel in a unbaffled main tank.

  

 Again worth what you paid for it.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote] ---

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