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External start battery

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jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: External start battery

Hi All  

   

Was having a chat with my AMO re starting the L29 and the issue around on board start vs external power came up.  What are you guys all using?  I am thinking of using 2 x 24V plus 1 x 6V battery making up a 30V system for starting only.  Is this too high?   

       [quote][b]

ncam(at)wave.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:17 am Post subject: External start battery

Dear Jorgen,

                         Pete Taylor used 2 Odyssey 940 series inside and it started fine, I used it on  my plane and it was fine.

 Having a turnkey airplane is sooo good, just like a  172.

 Regards

 Neville

  

 [quote]   ---

colyergreg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: External start battery

30 volts too much



Sent from my iPhone,

Greg



On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:17 AM, "Neville Cameron" <ncam(at)wave.co.nz (ncam(at)wave.co.nz)> wrote:



[quote]  Dear Jorgen,

                         Pete Taylor used 2 Odyssey 940 series inside and it started fine, I used it on  my plane and it was fine.

 Having a turnkey airplane is sooo good, just like a  172.

 Regards

 Neville

  

 [quote]   ---

colyergreg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: External start battery

Jorgen

   I only used the same odessy batteries as well.

Sent from my iPhone,

Greg



On Feb 17, 2009, at 12:17 AM, "Neville Cameron" <ncam(at)wave.co.nz (ncam(at)wave.co.nz)> wrote:



[quote]  Dear Jorgen,

                         Pete Taylor used 2 Odyssey 940 series inside and it started fine, I used it on  my plane and it was fine.

 Having a turnkey airplane is sooo good, just like a  172.

 Regards

 Neville

  

 [quote]   ---

bculberson(at)staraviatio
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: External start battery

I also have the oddysey batteries and have 150+ starts on them with out much issue. I have, however, used ground power with a much higher current capacity and it is the prefered way to go. It starts 40 percent faster than fresh oddyseys. The starter will live longer if the voltage is kept as close to 28 volts during the start up process as that keeps current flow low and therefore waste heat generated lower. According to my checklist, the start should occur within 30 seconds (to idle) I change the batteries when, fully charged, it can't make 30 seconds. try a good ground power cart (+300A) as comparisons, mine will be fully started in 15-18 seconds. Engines and parts are relatively cheap, but I'd hate to buy and INSTALL a starter...

 --------------------------

 Sent using BlackBerry

 

 

 ---

jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:33 am Post subject: External start battery

Hi Neville  

   

My onboard batteries perfect, looking for external solution.  

   

We at 5000ft at density altitudes up to 8000ft.  With the air being so thin you have to manually retard the fuel flow lever (a lot) to keep EGT within limits.    

   

So up here its recommended to use external start – I did this once at a military airbase and she fired up nice and cool and quick.  

   

Hows your L29 going?  

   

Regards to all on the list!  

   

Jorgen   

       

From: owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neville Cameron

 Sent: 17 February 2009 10:17 AM

 To: l29-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: External start battery  

  

  

     

Dear Jorgen,  

    

                       Pete Taylor used 2 Odyssey 940 series inside and it started fine, I used it on my plane and it was fine.  

    

Having a turnkey airplane is sooo good, just like a 172.  

    

Regards  

    

Neville  

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Jorgen Nielsen (jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co.za)   

    

To: l29-list(at)matronics.com (l29-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 9:00 PM  

    

Subject: External start battery  

    

   

  

Hi All  

   

Was having a chat with my AMO re starting the L29 and the issue around on board start vs external power came up.  What are you guys all using?  I am thinking of using 2 x 24V plus 1 x 6V battery making up a 30V system for starting only.  Is this too high?    	  Quote: 	
		    href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?L29-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?L29-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 	
      

  

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       [quote][b]

jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: External start battery

This is exactly my point re higher voltage for start.  

   

I know some of the ground power units will maintain 28V, even under load.  

   

My reckoning is that the normal onboard 24V system is depressed to 20V when starting, and a 30V battery system will depress to 25V when starting.  

   

   

       

From: owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Culberson

 Sent: 17 February 2009 06:33 PM

 To: l29-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: External start battery  

  

  

   

I also have the oddysey batteries and have 150+ starts on them with out much issue. I have, however, used ground power with a much higher current capacity and it is the prefered way to go. It starts 40 percent faster than fresh oddyseys. The starter will live longer if the voltage is kept as close to 28 volts during the start up process as that keeps current flow low and therefore waste heat generated lower. According to my checklist, the start should occur within 30 seconds (to idle) I change the batteries when, fully charged, it can't make 30 seconds. try a good ground power cart (+300A) as comparisons, mine will be fully started in 15-18 seconds. Engines and parts are relatively cheap, but I'd hate to buy and INSTALL a starter...

 --------------------------

 Sent using BlackBerry

 

 

 ---

bculberson(at)staraviatio
Guest

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: External start battery

Well, true...but you still have the issue of finding a 6V battery with the same amp-hour rating or face potentially dangerous recharging issues. When using multiple batteries in series, traditionally you want 2 or 3 batteries of the same voltage/amperage. To get what you want, you would be much better off getting 2 larger batteries with larger amp-hour ratings. Most people go with the oddysey as they fit in the existing battery box. With a mild modification, you could go with a bigger set of batteries, perhaps one in the nose wheel bay. I've been facing the same design issue in the MiG-17 I've been restoring. A lot of weight is being removed from the nose, I'm using big batteries (80 lbs/per battery) to get the C/G back in position. My L-29 is a bit tail heavy, it could use more weight/bigger batteries...

 --------------------------

 Sent using BlackBerry

 

 

 ---

propblast(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: External start battery

I use  2 Oddesy pc925 batteries and it works very well.  Never have had a  problem.

  

 John  Cabrera

 [quote]   

   --

colyergreg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: External start battery

John

    You are in so cal, right?  Can you make

It up for the jet blast I'm hosting in may?



Sent from my iPhone,

Greg



On Feb 18, 2009, at 9:17 PM, "John Cabrera" <propblast(at)earthlink.net (propblast(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:



[quote]  I use  2 Oddesy pc925 batteries and it works very well.  Never have had a  problem.

  

 John  Cabrera

 [quote]   

   --

propblast(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: External start battery

Greg,

  

 I  won't be able to make.  I have a trip scheduled with my daugther and her  6th grade class to go to Washington DC for that week.

 Trust  me, I would rather go to the jet blast......

  

  

 John....

 [quote]   

   --

transmatch(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: External start battery

My L-29 came with a Gill GE-50 battery installed in the nose compartment on the right side where I think that the IFF equipment had been installed.  It is a large, heavy battery that takes up all of this compartment.  I have always started off this internal battery and usually the start temperature never exceeds 600 degrees.  When the aircraft sits for an extended period of time, I connect this battery to a 24 volt BatteryMINDer.  The battery is about 4 years and is still in very good condition.  I hope that this helps.

 

 Gene Freeman

 N229DD

 

 

 --

jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: External start battery

Thanks all.  

   

Yes noted, and I have started my jet once (!) at sea level and experienced a very cool start with no juggling of fuel flow.  

   

What has become apparent to me is that everyone on the list is operating at low altitudes.  So a heads up is in order.  

   

Be careful when starting at high elevation / high density altitude.  The engine will over temp.  I manually have to retard the fuel flow lever to keep the temps in limits.  Seen the same with all 3 L29 I have flown up here in Johannesburg.    

   

Hence the search for a ground start solution with higher voltage.  

   

Jorgen  

   

     

From: owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of transmatch(at)aol.com

 Sent: 22 February 2009 07:02 PM

 To: l29-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: External start battery  

  

   

My L-29 came with a Gill GE-50 battery installed in the nose compartment on the right side where I think that the IFF equipment had been installed.  It is a large, heavy battery that takes up all of this compartment.  I have always started off this internal battery and usually the start temperature never exceeds 600 degrees.  When the aircraft sits for an extended period of time, I connect this battery to a 24 volt BatteryMINDer.  The battery is about 4 years and is still in very good condition.  I hope that this helps.

 

 Gene Freeman

 N229DD

 

 

 --

Colyergreg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: External start battery

Gene,

    Where do you base your L-29?

  

  In a message dated 2/22/2009 9:03:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  transmatch(at)aol.com writes:

 [quote]My L-29    came with a Gill GE-50 battery installed in the nose compartment on the right    side where I think that the IFF equipment had been installed.  It is a    large, heavy battery that takes up all of this compartment.  I have    always started off this internal battery and usually the start temperature    never exceeds 600 degrees.  When the aircraft sits for an extended period    of time, I connect this battery to a 24 volt BatteryMINDer.  The battery    is about 4 years and is still in very good condition.  I hope that this    helps.



Gene Freeman

N229DD

-----Original    Message-----

From: John Cabrera <propblast(at)earthlink.net>

To:    l29-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 6:14 pm

Subject: RE:    External start battery



      Greg,

    

   I    won't be able to make.  I have a trip scheduled with my daugther and her    6th grade class to go to Washington DC for that week.

   Trust me, I would rather go to the jet blast......

    

    

   John....

   [quote]     

     --

Colyergreg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: External start battery

Jorgen,

      Even at see level on hot days here in CA I always  had to "feather the fuel" on start to keep the temps low.  I do the same  thing in the T-33.  It just goes with the old jets.

  

 Greg

  

  In a message dated 2/22/2009 9:23:06 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co.za writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		        

Thanks    all.   

    

Yes    noted, and I have started my jet once (!) at sea level and experienced a very    cool start with no juggling of fuel flow.   

    

What    has become apparent to me is that everyone on the list is operating at low    altitudes.  So a heads up is in order.   

    

Be    careful when starting at high elevation / high density altitude.  The    engine will over temp.  I manually have to retard the fuel flow lever to    keep the temps in limits.  Seen the same with all 3 L29 I have flown up    here in Johannesburg.     

    

Hence    the search for a ground start solution with higher    voltage.   

    

Jorgen   

    

       

From:    owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of    transmatch(at)aol.com

Sent: 22 February 2009 07:02 PM

To:    l29-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: External start    battery

   

    

My L-29 came with a Gill GE-50    battery installed in the nose compartment on the right side where I think that    the IFF equipment had been installed.  It is a large, heavy battery that    takes up all of this compartment.  I have always started off this    internal battery and usually the start temperature never exceeds 600    degrees.  When the aircraft sits for an extended period of time, I    connect this battery to a 24 volt BatteryMINDer.  The battery is about 4    years and is still in very good condition.  I hope that this    helps.



Gene Freeman

N229DD

-----Original    Message-----

From: John Cabrera <propblast(at)earthlink.net>

To:    l29-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 6:14 pm

Subject: RE:    External start battery         

Greg,

      

 

      

I    won't be able to make.  I have a trip scheduled with my daugther and her    6th grade class to go to Washington DC for that    week.

      

Trust    me, I would rather go to the jet blast......

      

 

      

 

      

John....

    	  Quote: 	
		       

-----Original      Message-----

From: owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com)      [mailto:owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com ([email]owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com?[/email])]      On Behalf Of Colyergreg

Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2009      11:33 PM

To: l29-list(at)matronics.com (l29-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:      Re: External start battery          

John

          

    You are in so cal, right?  Can      you make

          

It up for the jet blast I'm hosting in may?



Sent      from my iPhone,          

Greg

          

 



          



On Feb 18, 2009, at 9:17      PM, "John Cabrera" <propblast(at)earthlink.net (propblast(at)earthlink.net)>      wrote:

      	  Quote: 	
		                       

I        use 2 Oddesy pc925 batteries and it works very well.  Never have had        a problem.

              

 

              

John        Cabrera

        	  Quote: 	
		           

-----Original          Message-----

From: owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com)          [mailto:owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com)]          On Behalf Of Jorgen Nielsen

Sent: Tuesday, February 17,          2009 12:00 AM

To: l29-list(at)matronics.com (l29-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject:          External start battery                           

Hi          All

                  

Was          having a chat with my AMO re starting the L29 and the issue around on          board start vs external power came up.  What are you guys all          using?  I am thinking of using 2 x 24V plus 1 x 6V battery making          up a 30V system for starting only.  Is this too high?          



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		   href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?L29-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?L29-Listhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.comhref="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c 	
  	


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 You can't always choose whom you love, but you can choose how to find them. Start with AOL Personals.

  [quote][b]

transmatch(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: External start battery

Greg:

 I live in St. Louis, Missouri and my hangar and airplane are based at the Saint Louis Downtown Airport (KCPS).  This is the old Parks College airport.

 

 Jorgen:

 

 You are correct. The highest density altitude that I ever started my L-29 was about 4500 feet.  I had no problem at that DA, but I can see where the higher DAs may be a problem.

 I would be careful about increasing the voltage above 28 volts.  The max amperage draw during a start should be no more than 600 amps.  This is a considerable draw and I think that you should ensure that you have very heavy cables and that they are no longer than is necessary.  This will keep the voltage drop from the external source to the starter to a minimum.  Also, when I start, I turn off the inverters as they draw a considerable amount of current as they spool up.  I'm sure that you are aware of this, but it bears reiterating.

 

 Gene

 N229DD

 

 

 --

Colyergreg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: External start battery

Thanks

  

  In a message dated 2/22/2009 9:58:57 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  transmatch(at)aol.com writes:

 [quote]Greg:

I live in St. Louis, Missouri and my hangar and airplane are    based at the Saint Louis Downtown Airport (KCPS).  This is the old Parks    College airport.



Jorgen:



You are correct. The highest density    altitude that I ever started my L-29 was about 4500 feet.  I had no    problem at that DA, but I can see where the higher DAs may be a problem.

I    would be careful about increasing the voltage above 28 volts.  The max    amperage draw during a start should be no more than 600 amps.  This is a    considerable draw and I think that you should ensure that you have very heavy    cables and that they are no longer than is necessary.  This will keep the    voltage drop from the external source to the starter to a minimum.  Also,    when I start, I turn off the inverters as they draw a considerable amount of    current as they spool up.  I'm sure that you are aware of this, but it    bears reiterating.



Gene

N229DD

-----Original    Message-----

From: Colyergreg(at)aol.com

To:    l29-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 5:30 pm

Subject: Re:    External start battery



      Gene,

      Where do you base your L-29?

    

      In a message dated 2/22/2009 9:03:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, transmatch(at)aol.com (transmatch(at)aol.com) writes:

   [quote]My      L-29 came with a Gill GE-50 battery installed in the nose compartment on the      right side where I think that the IFF equipment had been installed.  It      is a large, heavy battery that takes up all of this compartment.  I      have always started off this internal battery and usually the start      temperature never exceeds 600 degrees.  When the aircraft sits for an      extended period of time, I connect this battery to a 24 volt      BatteryMINDer.  The battery is about 4 years and is still in very good      condition.  I hope that this helps.



Gene      Freeman

N229DD

--

czech6(at)mesanetworks.ne
Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: External start battery

I believe it’s 200 amps for a few seconds then 400 amps for the rest of the start. The 2 Odyssey batteries or the one big Gill/Concord battery is perfect.   

Many guys go to the local autoparts store and buy 2 12 volt car batteries for $50 each and they last for years.   

         

  

From: owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-l29-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of transmatch(at)aol.com

 Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 10:57 AM

 To: l29-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: External start battery  

  

   

Greg:

 I live in St. Louis, Missouri and my hangar and airplane are based at the Saint Louis Downtown Airport (KCPS).  This is the old Parks College airport.

 

 Jorgen:

 

 You are correct. The highest density altitude that I ever started my L-29 was about 4500 feet.  I had no problem at that DA, but I can see where the higher DAs may be a problem.

 I would be careful about increasing the voltage above 28 volts.  The max amperage draw during a start should be no more than 600 amps.  This is a considerable draw and I think that you should ensure that you have very heavy cables and that they are no longer than is necessary.  This will keep the voltage drop from the external source to the starter to a minimum.  Also, when I start, I turn off the inverters as they draw a considerable amount of current as they spool up.  I'm sure that you are aware of this, but it bears reiterating.

 

 Gene

 N229DD

 

 

 --

jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:09 am Post subject: External start battery

OK an update.  I spoke with a battery manufacturer here in SA, and went through all kinds of options to try get a battery based 28V system for external ground start.    

   

We even played with some off the wall ideas such as building me a one off car type battery but with only 2 cells connected, not the normal 6, to give 4V.  

   

What we have settled on is using 2 big car type batteries to give 24V.  In addition, I will use two 2V batteries as well to boost the voltage up to 28V.    

   

These 2V batteries are rated at 186Ah capacity, can deliver more than enough current.  20 years life.  They normally used here in SA in mining locomotives.  

   

I have a programmable charger that can deliver 5A, and I can set it for 4V.  When I make up the unit I will tap off some charge plugs for 24V and 4V to make it easy to charge.  

   

I will let you all know how it all works out.  

   

On another note:  I have been using a 24V charger for some time, to charge my normal 24V ground start batteries and also to top up the onboard batteries.  I battled to find a 24V charger initially, than had a bright idea and bought a fully electronic version from a electric scooter supplier.  Been working well so far.   

   

Regards to all on the list.  

   

Jorgen Nielsen  

    

       [quote][b]

colyergreg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 3:07 am Post subject: External start battery

Sounds like you figured it out, now let see how it works.



Sent from my iPhone,

Greg



On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:04 AM, "Jorgen Nielsen" <jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co.za (jorgen.nielsen(at)mweb.co.za)> wrote:



[quote]    

OK an update.  I spoke with a battery manufacturer here in SA, and went through all kinds of options to try get a battery based 28V system for external ground start.    

   

We even played with some off the wall ideas such as building me a one off car type battery but with only 2 cells connected, not the normal 6, to give 4V.  

   

What we have settled on is using 2 big car type batteries to give 24V.  In addition, I will use two 2V batteries as well to boost the voltage up to 28V.    

   

These 2V batteries are rated at 186Ah capacity, can deliver more than enough current.  20 years life.  They normally used here in SA in mining locomotives.  

   

I have a programmable charger that can deliver 5A, and I can set it for 4V.  When I make up the unit I will tap off some charge plugs for 24V and 4V to make it easy to charge.  

   

I will let you all know how it all works out.  

   

On another note:  I have been using a 24V charger for some time, to charge my normal 24V ground start batteries and also to top up the onboard batteries.  I battled to find a 24V charger initially, than had a bright idea and bought a fully electronic version from a electric scooter supplier.  Been working well so far.   

   

Regards to all on the list.  

   

Jorgen Nielsen  

    

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