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How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

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nickc(at)mtaonline.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Rick, and any other VW redrives,  

   

How many gallons per hour do burn with your VW Redrive. I read about your creation in the archives, but I did not see anything regarding GPH and what type of fuel do use?  

   

I am try to narrow engine choices… that I can afford.   

   

Thanks,   

   

Nick Cassara  

   

Proto-type Kolbra  

Palmer, Alaska  

   

   

   

   

   

   

       [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Nick

  

 I burn 4 gallons per hour of regular automotive  fuel. I had my engine built for a 7.8-9 to one compression ratio. Higher  compression requires higher octane.

  

 I have been told the VW engine mount that Kolb  makes is too wide for the Kolbra.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Rick



 Sounds as if you are running at near 50 horses...?  What redrive ratio and cruise rpms?   Cruise speed?  Thanks   Herb 



 

 At 08:02 AM 3/16/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]Nick

  

 I burn 4 gallons per hour of regular automotive fuel. I had my engine built for a 7.8-9 to one compression ratio. Higher compression requires higher octane.

  

 I have been told the VW engine mount that Kolb makes is too wide for the Kolbra.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

   ---

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Herb

  

 Since it is a custom engine the power is a bit  unknown but I cruise at a greatly reduced power level. I assume you extrapolated  the 50 HP from the fuel burn. You are assuming a lot but might be close. Climb  and cruise are very close to a 80 HP Rotax.

  

  The redrive ratio is 1.6 to 1 and I  cruise at 3200 engine RPMs. The cruise is 75 MPH. I'm currently turning a 71  inch three bladed F model PowerFin prop. 

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:53 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Good info Rick...thanks...  I want a MkIII with a Vw engine  Bad!!!    Looking for a project...however...



  My assumptions are based  on a burn of 12 hp per gal per hour .  This gives one a mental shorthand that  separates  lies from  reasonable estimates...(you would be amazed at how many 200 mpg carb guys are still out there----big oil,auto companies bought them all up  !!) ...Sounds as if  the 912 is a bit more efficient?  High compression ratio likely helps ...  



   I think I asked for those numbers before...      Herb 



 

 ps  anyone know if the rods on the 912 use needle bearings ?   I cannot tell looking at the cps catalog  Rods and crank sell as a unit.  



 do not archive 



 



   

 At 10:42 AM 3/16/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]Herb

  

 Since it is a custom engine the power is a bit unknown but I cruise at a greatly reduced power level. I assume you extrapolated the 50 HP from the fuel burn. You are assuming a lot but might be close. Climb and cruise are very close to a 80 HP Rotax.

  

  The redrive ratio is 1.6 to 1 and I cruise at 3200 engine RPMs. The cruise is 75 MPH. I'm currently turning a 71 inch three bladed F model PowerFin prop. 

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

   ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:22 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

12 hp per gal per hour is a little high for the  912UL.

  

 My experience with the 912UL is 4 gph at 5,000;  4.25 gph at 5,200, 4.5 gph at 5,400 rpm.  These figures are based on many  hours of cross country flying, not around the patch fuel consumption  figures.

  

 The 912ULS is not nearly as efficient as the old  80.  5 gph at 5,000 and 5.5 gph at 5,000.  Got to pay for the extra  kick.

  

 I can not remember what type bearing is used for  con rods.

  

 Give Ronnie Smith a call.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]     My assumptions are based  on a    burn of 12 hp per gal per hour .        Herb    

ps  anyone know if the rods on the 912 use needle bearings    ?    

[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Knew it was going to be better...  Sounds like 16 or so hp per gal per hr...?  Could not find a hp/torque curve in the CPS catalog for the 100 hp engine.. Thazzz purty gud...



   Who is flying the Geo Metro on the list?   Might make a good comparison...Herb 



 At 12:21 PM 3/16/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]12 hp per gal per hour is a little high for the 912UL.

  

 My experience with the 912UL is 4 gph at 5,000; 4.25 gph at 5,200, 4.5 gph at 5,400 rpm.  These figures are based on many hours of cross country flying, not around the patch fuel consumption figures.

  

 The 912ULS is not nearly as efficient as the old 80.  5 gph at 5,000 and 5.5 gph at 5,000.  Got to pay for the extra kick.

  

 I can not remember what type bearing is used for con rods.

  

 Give Ronnie Smith a call.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

     My assumptions are based  on a burn of 12 hp per gal per hour .        Herb 



 

  ps  anyone know if the rods on the 912 use needle bearings ?    



  

 [b]

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:39 am Post subject: Re: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

 	  herbgh(at)nctc.com wrote: 	
		  

 ps  anyone know if the rods on the 912 use needle bearings ?   I cannot tell looking at the cps catalog  Rods and crank sell as a unit.  



 do not archive 

	




I believe the 912 rods use "regular old" sleeve/bushing type bearings which are supported by oil pressure. I don't think they use needle bearings.



And I don't want to have to find out. Ever.... 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:54 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

 	  Quote: 	
		   I believe the 912 rods use "regular old" sleeve/bushing type bearings 

 which are supported by oil pressure. I don't think they use needle 

 bearings.



 And I don't want to have to find out. Ever.... 



 LS


	




The main bearings are "inserts".  I remember that from 912 course, but can 

not remember the con rods.



Guess I could do a little research in the heavy maintenance manual, but 

don't have time now.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:24 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Herb, because the geo is only 1 liter and high compression it does very well at being frugal.It also burns  low octane gas with no protest.  I did notice a slight loss when they started putting

ethanol in it.  I can't give any  numbers because I haven't done a real test. As with any engine though, it

gets thirstier if I push it harder.

Same goes for rate of climb.  Never measured it but I think I would need to look at the hour hand

instead of the minute hand.

Been beautiful flying weather here for the past three days but spring is a busy time around here

so that's wishful thinking.  -besides, I still have to change my legs over to the new steel jobbers.

Something new every year.

BB



On 16, Mar 2009, at 1:54 PM, herb wrote:

[quote] 

 Knew it was going to be better...  Sounds like 16 or so hp per gal per hr...?  Could not find a hp/torque curve in the CPS catalog for the 100 hp engine.. Thazzz purty gud...



   Who is flying the Geo Metro on the list?   Might make a good comparison...Herb 



 At 12:21 PM 3/16/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  12 hp per gal per hour is a little high for the 912UL.

  

 My experience with the 912UL is 4 gph at 5,000; 4.25 gph at 5,200, 4.5 gph at 5,400 rpm.  These figures are based on many hours of cross country flying, not around the patch fuel consumption figures.

  

 The 912ULS is not nearly as efficient as the old 80.  5 gph at 5,000 and 5.5 gph at 5,000.  Got to pay for the extra kick.

  

 I can not remember what type bearing is used for con rods.

  

 Give Ronnie Smith a call.

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

    My assumptions are based  on a burn of 12 hp per gal per hour .        Herb 



 

 ps  anyone know if the rods on the 912 use needle bearings ?    



 

 

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[b]

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

 >> Who is flying the Geo Metro on the list?   Might make a good comparison...Herb

  

 Herb C

  

   Currently C there are two gentlemen presently flying the GEO engine.  Bob Bean C who has his set up with a carburetor C and Vic (I think Gibson) C who more than likely has TBI (throttle body fuel injection C which probably retains the ECU computer for engine controls).

  

   I am in the final stages of attaching all the extraneous engine items on my turbocharged GEO 1.0 liter.  So far C I've got the turbocharger C radiator C intercooler and oil cooler fabrication completed and mounted these items.  Right now C I'm working on the finishing touches on my turbo exhaust.

 The exhaust is all built C I'm just putting on the O2 bungs C etc.  I'll most likely have these exhaust pieces cermicoated.

  

   Recently I received my high performance cam and reworked cam gear back from the Teamswift.net GEO engine guru.  This guy has a machine shop C and knows quite a bit about high performance GEO modifications.  There are dozens C if not hundreds C of people that have installed his performance parts C and every one of them rave about how much better their engine's power is improved.

  

   My engine now has his "mild" street cam C and 6+ degrees advanced cam gear (to be repositioned to the new 6+ degree setting).  It is the opinion of three people I've corresponded with (on that high performance chat group site) that my engine should be putting out around 95-100 HP C and around 120+ ft lbs of torque. 

  

   I make absolutely NO claim whatsoever as to whether it will or not have these perofrmance figures C until I fire the engine up and do some testing.  I don't claim a thing until it is proven!!!

 I expect I will do a thrust test at some point.

  

   Oh yeah C there is one more guy who is building a GEO 1.3 L engine.  His C also C will be fuel injection C but I think it's multi-port C IIRC.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

 	  Quote: 	
		    	
Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®.  See how.  [quote][b]

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

The durn picture on page  46 of the CPS catalog seems to indicate 

that the crank is multiple pieces using big end needle 

bearings.  ???  If it used replaceable rods, then it could be re 

buildable which I think it is not..?      Herb

At 01:39 PM 3/16/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

herbgh(at)nctc.com wrote:

 >

 >  ps  anyone know if the rods on the 912 use needle bearings ?   I 

 cannot tell looking at the cps catalog  Rods and crank sell as a unit.

 >

 >  do not archive

 >

I believe the 912 rods use "regular old" sleeve/bushing type 

bearings which are supported by oil pressure. I don't think they use 

needle bearings.

And I don't want to have to find out. Ever.... 

LS

--------

LS

Titan II SS

Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 34870#234870

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

> The durn picture on page  46 of the CPS catalog seems to indicate

 	  Quote: 	
		   that the crank is multiple pieces using big end needle bearings.  ???  If 

 it used replaceable rods, then it could be re buildable which I think it 

 is not..?      Herb


	




Picking up the phone, calling Ronnie Smith, was quicker than looking in the 

book.



912 series crankshafts are press fit.  Main bearings are split inserts and 

the con rods are whole inserts.  Crankshafts are not Service Center 

rebuildable.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

Thanks John

    Interesting concept...not sure that I have seen that 

before?   Makes me think that at 4k or so for the assy    the after 

market could  make  money rebuilding them with different rods 

with  split big ends..   Herb

At 03:27 PM 3/16/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > The durn picture on page  46 of the CPS catalog seems to indicate

>that the crank is multiple pieces using big end needle 

>bearings.  ???  If it used replaceable rods, then it could be re 

>buildable which I think it is not..?      Herb

Picking up the phone, calling Ronnie Smith, was quicker than looking 

in the book.

912 series crankshafts are press fit.  Main bearings are split 

inserts and the con rods are whole inserts.  Crankshafts are not 

Service Center rebuildable.

john h

mkIII

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:16 pm Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

>    Interesting concept...not sure that I have seen that

 	  Quote: 	
		   before?   Makes me think that at 4k or so for the assy    the after market 

 could  make  money rebuilding them with different rods with  split big 

 ends..   Herb


	




Does anyone know why Rotax when the same route with cranks for 4 strokes as 

they did for 2 strokes?



Not being an engineer, I have to rely on what little bit of good ole common 

sense I inherited.  A cursory glance at the crank tells me it may be lighter 

and cleaner for turning higher speeds.  Might reduce drag, increase 

performance.



Just guessing.  I don't know.



I do know that the only problem Rotax has experienced with a 912 crank was 

oil starvation.  A few seconds of oil starvation and the engine is toast. 

What is the primary cause of oil starvation?  Losing an oil line.  Jim Lee, 

Sharon, PA, lost his life near Lakeland, FL, when he was flying a Kolb MKIII 

with floats.  Lost an oil line on a 912, stalled and crashed.



Losing an oil line on a 912 should not happen.  The intake line is under 

vacuum, pump is pulling oil.  The outlet line is under 3 to 5 psi (crankcase 

pressure) to push oil out of the crankcase, back to the oil tank.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:23 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

The answer is weight. A built up crankshaft weighs less. It also allows the use of a "folded" (Eric Tucker's terminology) design of the crank throws, which makes the crank shorter, which makes a smaller, shorter crankcase which also reduces weight. Incidentally, the folded crank throw doesn't allow room for rod bolts, so no after market rods are likely. Okay, Dana, jump in and tell every one weight has absolutely nothing to do with it. :-}

Rick



On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 4:15 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>

  

 



 >    Interesting concept...not sure that I have seen that

  	  Quote: 	
		   before?   Makes me think that at 4k or so for the assy    the after market could  make  money rebuilding them with different rods with  split big ends..   Herb

 	
 

 



 Does anyone know why Rotax when the same route with cranks for 4 strokes as they did for 2 strokes?

 

 Not being an engineer, I have to rely on what little bit of good ole common sense I inherited.  A cursory glance at the crank tells me it may be lighter and cleaner for turning higher speeds.  Might reduce drag, increase performance.

  

 Just guessing.  I don't know.

 

 I do know that the only problem Rotax has experienced with a 912 crank was oil starvation.  A few seconds of oil starvation and the engine is toast. What is the primary cause of oil starvation?  Losing an oil line.  Jim Lee, Sharon, PA, lost his life near Lakeland, FL, when he was flying a Kolb MKIII with floats.  Lost an oil line on a 912, stalled and crashed.

  

 Losing an oil line on a 912 should not happen.  The intake line is under vacuum, pump is pulling oil.  The outlet line is under 3 to 5 psi (crankcase pressure) to push oil out of the crankcase, back to the oil tank. 



 

 john h

 mkIII 

 

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[b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:42 am Post subject: How many gallons per hour with VW Redrive

At 07:23 AM 3/17/2009, Richard Girard wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  Okay, Dana, jump in and tell every one weight has absolutely nothing to do 

with it. :-}


	


Are you kidding?  Weight is EVERYTHING! 



-Dana

--

  The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts.

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