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The Obvious

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dalamphere(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:01 pm Post subject: The Obvious

You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most  hidden.... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that  would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the  wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could -  still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer -  His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning  message, he just said to read the FAQ's. 

  

 Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is  (here is the exact quote):

  

 "Who did the installation?"

 "If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom  harness not purchased, the warranty is void."

  

 When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to  proceed.

 Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!

  

 Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the  mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike  jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).

  

 On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center  band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one  person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's  - eh?

  

  

 Now I have to reinstall that harness!

  

  

 Dave L.

  

   [quote][b]

harley(at)AgelessWings.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:33 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Amazing!  They give harness construction instructions right on their website, and in the same breath say that the warranty is void if you follow them! 

 

 Harley

 

 David & Elaine Lamphere wrote: [quote]            You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most hidden.... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could - still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer - His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning message, he just said to read the FAQ's. 

    

   Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is (here is the exact quote):

    

   "Who did the installation?"

   "If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom harness not purchased, the warranty is void."

    

   When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to proceed.

   Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!

    

   Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).

    

   On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's - eh?

    

    

   Now I have to reinstall that harness!

    

    

   Dave L.

    

    	  Quote: 	
		  



 href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List

 href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

 href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
 [b]

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: The Obvious

That’s a standard response from PS and I can’t really blame them.  They have had lots of intercoms that were toasted by users installing their equipment and then trying to return them saying it’s PS’s fault.  Solution to this is require a harness.  Seems a level headed requirement rather than not supporting guys like us.    

   

Michael  

       

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David & Elaine Lamphere

 Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 4:49 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: The Obvious  

  

  

     

You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most hidden.... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could - still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer - His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning message, he just said to read the FAQ's.   

    

   

    

Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is (here is the exact quote):  

    

   

    

"Who did the installation?"  

    

"If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom harness not purchased, the warranty is void."  

    

   

    

When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to proceed.  

    

Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!  

    

   

    

Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).  

    

   

    

On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's - eh?  

    

   

    

   

    

Now I have to reinstall that harness!  

    

   

    

   

    

Dave L.  

    

   

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      [quote][b]

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: The Obvious

At 03:48 PM 3/18/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most hidden.... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could - still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer - His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning message, he just said to read the FAQ's. 

  

 Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is (here is the exact quote):

  

 "Who did the installation?"

 "If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom harness not purchased, the warranty is void."

  

 When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to proceed.

 Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!

  

 Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).

  

 On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's - eh? 	


    If you had queried the AeroElectric Connection

    website search feature on "microphone" . . . one of the

    hits you would have received . . .



  http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html



    . . . speaks to this issue.



    You gotta cut the PS guys a bit of slack. The

    majority of installations for their products are

    carried out by folks who have done it before. I get dozens

    of e-mails and phone calls per weeks with questions

    that are equally simplistic. None of this stuff

    is "hard" to do . . . but there's so much "easy"

    stuff you need to know. Time that customer

    service folks spend on the phone/email trying

    to figure out which "easy" thing is being 

    overlooked doesn't help the bottom line.



    I've listened to one sided conversations in the

    customer service departments at Hakwker-Beech.

    In most cases, the exchange of data is rapid,

    concise, often folks at both ends of the line

    are looking at the same computer screen. Occasionally,

    you hear a conversation that is NOT moving

    ahead smoothly. I've been told that sifting

    the easy things with a new technician is

    4 to 10 times more expensive to the company

    than working with the more experienced tech.

    

    Nonetheless they are courteous and as helpful

    as they know how to be but its exceedingly

    difficult to know what your listener doesn't

    know. One of those calls can keep 4 to 10 

    more experienced folks waiting with commensurate

    extensions of THEIR customer's down time on

    a very expensive airplane!



    I'm not suggesting that anyone is right or

    wrong here. I'm only pointing out that

    education is EXPENSIVE in terms of $time$

    and patience. A lot of my time billed to customers

    is to educate myself in the magnitude and 

    character of simple-ideas that require sifting.



    Your frustration is understandable and perhaps

    expected . . .  but pitching mudballs at the PS

    Engineering guys is perhaps unustified and

    certainly not productive. I'm pleased that

    root cause of your problem is solved and

    that the project is again moving forward.



 

 

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------



     [quote][b]

jay(at)horriblehyde.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Hi there Dave,  

   

I have had exactly the same problem when installing the PM1000 system from PS Engineering; so far I have not been able to solve the problem- your mail gives me a new place to look..  I’ll check it out and report back!  

   

I also encountered the same poor service response from them- extremely bad.  I would not at all recommend PS Eng products based on the extremely poor after sales service.  If I hadn’t already cut the panel I’d go so far as to toss the damned thing out..  

   

The PS Eng guys response was similar to that that you encountered- speak to the avionics agent who installed or sold you the product- I bought it from their stand at Oshkosh last year… to which I got the equivalent of an ‘oh well’ shrug…  

     

Jay  

   

   

          

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David & Elaine Lamphere

 Sent: 18 March 2009 10:49 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: The Obvious  

  

     

You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most hidden... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could - still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer - His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning message, he just said to read the FAQ's.   

    

   

    

Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is (here is the exact quote):  

    

   

    

[i]"Who did the installation?"[/i]  

    

[i]"If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom harness not purchased, the warranty is void."[/i]  

    

   

    

When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to proceed.  

    

Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!  

    

   

    

Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).  

    

   

    

On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's - eh?  

    

   

    

   

    

Now I have to reinstall that harness!  

    

   

    

   

    

Dave L.  

    

   

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jay(at)horriblehyde.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Hmm, I disagree somewhat with you Bob; if this is such an obvious problem and continuously encountered then the manufacturer ought to make it clearer on the installation instructions- quite simple really.  Or, in the FAQ list on their website, provide pictures like you have- its obviously a frequent source of frustration for customers, and hence support staff- so make it clearer…  

   

I have just checked my wiring, and I had also previously looked at the link that you provide in your mail, and my wiring is exactly as you indicate.  I took my unit to a local PS Eng agent and avionics shop to check out and provided the detailed wiring diagram as I wired it up.  They checked the unit out and found it to be fine- they also thought that my wiring was correct, but still the Icom A210 won’t talk to the PS unit..   

     

Jay  

   

          

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III

 Sent: 18 March 2009 11:47 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: The Obvious  

  

   

At 03:48 PM 3/18/2009, you wrote:

 

   

You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most hidden... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could - still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer - His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning message, he just said to read the FAQ's. 

  

 Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is (here is the exact quote):

  

 "Who did the installation?"

 "If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom harness not purchased, the warranty is void."

  

 When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to proceed.

 Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!

  

 Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).

  

 On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's - eh?  



    If you had queried the AeroElectric Connection

    website search feature on "microphone" . . . one of the

    hits you would have received . . .

 

 http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html

 

    . . . speaks to this issue.

 

    You gotta cut the PS guys a bit of slack. The

    majority of installations for their products are

    carried out by folks who have done it before. I get dozens

    of e-mails and phone calls per weeks with questions

    that are equally simplistic. None of this stuff

    is "hard" to do . . . but there's so much "easy"

    stuff you need to know. Time that customer

    service folks spend on the phone/email trying

    to figure out which "easy" thing is being 

    overlooked doesn't help the bottom line.

 

    I've listened to one sided conversations in the

    customer service departments at Hakwker-Beech.

    In most cases, the exchange of data is rapid,

    concise, often folks at both ends of the line

    are looking at the same computer screen. Occasionally,

    you hear a conversation that is NOT moving

    ahead smoothly. I've been told that sifting

    the easy things with a new technician is

    4 to 10 times more expensive to the company

    than working with the more experienced tech.

    

    Nonetheless they are courteous and as helpful

    as they know how to be but its exceedingly

    difficult to know what your listener doesn't

    know. One of those calls can keep 4 to 10 

    more experienced folks waiting with commensurate

    extensions of THEIR customer's down time on

    a very expensive airplane!

 

    I'm not suggesting that anyone is right or

    wrong here. I'm only pointing out that

    education is EXPENSIVE in terms of $time$

    and patience. A lot of my time billed to customers

    is to educate myself in the magnitude and 

    character of simple-ideas that require sifting.

 

    Your frustration is understandable and perhaps

    expected . . .  but pitching mudballs at the PS

    Engineering guys is perhaps unustified and

    certainly not productive. I'm pleased that

    root cause of your problem is solved and

    that the project is again moving forward.

 

 

 

     

       Bob . . .

 

        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

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dalamphere(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Yep - that's the article! The light bulb went on  at that moment!

 Very clear essay on the subject  Thank  You!

  

 As to PS Engineering - they could have been just  a little bit more helpful 

 Not the kind of treatment you would like I am  sure.

  

 [quote]      If you had queried the AeroElectric Connection

   website search    feature on "microphone" . . . one of the

   hits you would have    received . . .



http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/micjack/micjack.html



      . . . speaks to this issue.



[b]

dalamphere(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Jay,

  

 One other gotcha is keeping the jacks detached  electrically from the panel. Those parts that come with the jacks : phenolic  rings and black plastic rings that have a lip that fit in the mounting hole  and insulate the jack stud are to be used! The signal lows are NOT ground  and need to be kept isolated from the airframe/panel ground.

  

 To their credit, they (PSE)  DO give you the  installation schematic. Some of the other manufacturers of avionics do not!  DIY's have to really dig and scramble in those cases. Bob's postings and  documents are priceless in those cases.

  

 Dave  

 [quote]   ---

tonybabb(at)alejandra.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: The Obvious

I  have little to no sympathy for PS position I think the problems are  completely of their own making and the solution is in their own hands. If their  products are difficult to install then they should only sell through  resellers who do installation or they should insist on a harness being  purchased, or insist on customers taking a training course. Seems to me they  want it both ways - additional revenue by selling direct to any retail  customer with a credit card and low service level costs assuming they're selling  through qualified installers. 

  

 Back  in the early days of PCs there were numerous issues with customers buying PCs  direct from manufacturers and then not being able to assemble them. Some  manufacturers referred customers to the cheapest tech support they could find (  usually off-shore with a heavy accent following a script) and others stepped up  to the plate and provided very simple color diagrams - with only numbers and  pictures with no text descriptions that matched the color coded connectors and  cables. Guess which manufacturers are still around  today.....

  

 If you  know that your customers are going to be challenged to install your stuff then  you have to look at the whole customer experience - a flashy stand at Oshkosh  doesn't cut it any more - well designed products with documentation that matches  the expected experience level of your customers. If you can't do that then get  out of the business or you will be overtaken by those who  will.

  

 Tony

 Velocty SEFG 62% done, 78% to go

 www.alejandra.net/velocity

 [quote]   

   --

rjquillin

Joined: 13 May 2007
Posts: 123
Location: KSEE

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 3:13 pm Post subject: The Obvious

At 15:19 3/18/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Hmm, I disagree somewhat with you Bob; if this is such an obvious problem and continuously encountered then the manufacturer ought to make it clearer on the installation instructions- quite simple really.  Or, in the FAQ list on their website, provide pictures like you have- its obviously a frequent source of frustration for customers, and hence support staff- so make it clearer… 	


 I'm with Bob on this.  



 I had a King KMA aka PS-7000 unit.  Had sticky buttons, and -under warranty- a King dealer REFUSED to accept the unit for repair.  I sent it to PS, had it upgraded and it came back, promptly, with a PS bezel and working buttons.  The IM for the 7000B unit has a drawing of the jack with Hi, Lo and PTT clearly indicated.  Assuming you meant PM1000-II and not PS1000II, an even better and very clearly labeled diagram is right in the manual.  If we can't RTFM, and follow, we have no business wiring our avionics, perhaps incorrectly, and then slamming the factory customer support.



 Apologies if I offend, just my opinion.



 Ron Q.



     [quote][b]

Barry Chapman

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 11
Location: Lone Wolf, OK

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Something else that may be a gotcha on this system is that they want the jack isolated from aircraft ground and that the shield grounds are back at the ps1000 box, not at the jacks.  I have a pdf schematic of the wiring if any are interested, email off list.  Thanks.



Barry Chapman

RV-9A

From: Jay Hyde <jay(at)horriblehyde.com>

To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 4:55:05  PM

Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: The Obvious



                    

Hi there Dave,   

     

I have had exactly the same problem when installing the PM1000 system from PS Engineering; so far I have not been able to solve the problem- your mail gives me a new place to look..  Iâ€™ll check it out and report back!   

     

I also encountered the same poor service response from them- extremely bad.  I would not at all recommend PS Eng products based on the extremely poor after sales service.  If I hadnâ€™t already cut the panel Iâ€™d go so far as to toss the damned thing out..   

     

The PS Eng guys response was similar to that that you encountered- speak to the avionics agent who installed or sold you the product- I bought it from their stand at Oshkosh last yearâ€¦ to which I got the equivalent of an â€˜oh wellâ€™ shrugâ€¦   

       

Jay   

     

    

          

  

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of David & Elaine Lamphere

 Sent: 18 March 2009 10:49 PM

 To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: The Obvious   

  

       

You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most hidden.... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could - still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer - His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning message, he just said to read the FAQ's.    

    

    

    

Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is (here is the exact quote):   

    

    

    

[i]"Who did the installation?"[/i]   

    

[i]"If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom harness not purchased, the warranty is void."[/i]   

    

    

    

When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to proceed.   

    

Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!   

    

    

    

Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).   

    

    

    

On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's - eh?   

    

    

    

    

    

Now I have to reinstall that harness!   

    

    

    

    

    

Dave L.   

    

    

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This message has been scanned for viruses and 

dangerous content by Pinpoint Securemail, 

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 [quote][b]

_________________
Barry Chapman
RV-9A in progress
Tail complete, Wings here, Engine needs rebuilt

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Boy I don't know, the audio panel is about the most complex item

in a panel to wire. I know it's about the largest and most

complex wired item in my plane.  I'm really glad they do provide

the diagrams and I am allowed to wire it myself, but I certainly

wouldn't want to be on their end having to provide support to

the untrained.  I know Stein spends WAY more time in his business

helping amateurs figure out what they screwed up than I could

ever tolerate, and I know of specific examples where people

came screaming at his guys blaming them for inop audio panels...

only to find out later that things like jacks were mis-wired,

causing the issues.  So like Michael said, I think it's pretty

normal for them to want to require a purchased or custom harness. 

Everything a person needs to know is usually

in the avionics manuals, and PS has some of the best manuals

there are as far as interconnect diagrams go.  But still,

it takes a very diligent reader and some hard studying for

an amateur to figure it out.  It's complicated stuff.

I spend a bunch of time supporting apps and networks and users,

and I'll tell you what, it gets frustrating.  I can't blame them

for their warranty position.  I just approach it from the angle

that I shouldn't be doing it unless I'm willing to work

hard enough to do it right.



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Tony Babb wrote:

[quote] I have little to no sympathy for PS position I think the problems are 

 completely of their own making and the solution is in their own hands. 

 If their products are difficult to install then they should only sell 

 through resellers who do installation or they should insist on a harness 

 being purchased, or insist on customers taking a training course. Seems 

 to me they want it both ways - additional revenue by selling direct to 

 any retail customer with a credit card and low service level costs 

 assuming they're selling through qualified installers.

  

 Back in the early days of PCs there were numerous issues with customers 

 buying PCs direct from manufacturers and then not being able to assemble 

 them. Some manufacturers referred customers to the cheapest tech support 

 they could find ( usually off-shore with a heavy accent following a 

 script) and others stepped up to the plate and provided very simple 

 color diagrams - with only numbers and pictures with no text 

 descriptions that matched the color coded connectors and cables. Guess 

 which manufacturers are still around today.....

  

 If you know that your customers are going to be challenged to install 

 your stuff then you have to look at the whole customer experience - a 

 flashy stand at Oshkosh doesn't cut it any more - well designed products 

 with documentation that matches the expected experience level of your 

 customers. If you can't do that then get out of the business or you will 

 be overtaken by those who will.

  

 Tony

 Velocty SEFG 62% done, 78% to go

 www.alejandra.net/velocity <http://www.alejandra.net/velocity>

 

     --

BobsV35B(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: The Obvious

Good Evening Tim and All,

 

I find that PS Engineering is about the easiest supplier to work with of  any 

that I have ever used.

 

I am currently finishing the wiring on the third PSE installation that I  

have utilized.  As always, one step at a time and carefully following the  

drawing gets the job done. 

 

As you say, wiring a complete intercomm is NOT a trivial task. Every time I  

make a dumb mistake, the PSE folks have been most gracious in trying to help 

me  solve my problem. 

 

Have you ever tried to talk to Garmin about anything?

 

I not only think PS Engineering has the finest intercomm available on the  

market, I also feel they are the very best when it comes to service or help for  

we dummies!

 

Happy  Skies



Old Bob

AKA

Bob Siegfried

Ancient Aviator

628 West 86th  Street

Downers Grove, IL 60516

630 985-8502 

Stearman  N3977A

Brookeridge Air Park LL22  



 

In a message dated 3/18/2009 8:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  

Tim(at)MyRV10.com writes:






Boy I don't know, the audio panel is about the  most complex item

in a panel to wire. I know it's about the largest and  most

complex wired item in my plane.  I'm really glad they do  provide

the diagrams and I am allowed to wire it myself, but I  certainly

wouldn't want to be on their end having to provide support  to

the untrained.  I know Stein spends WAY more time in his  business

helping amateurs figure out what they screwed up than I  could

ever tolerate, and I know of specific examples where people

came  screaming at his guys blaming them for inop audio panels...

only to find  out later that things like jacks were mis-wired,

causing the issues.   So like Michael said, I think it's pretty

normal for them to want to  require a purchased or custom harness. 

Everything a person needs to know  is usually

in the avionics manuals, and PS has some of the best  manuals

there are as far as interconnect diagrams go.  But  still,

it takes a very diligent reader and some hard studying for

an  amateur to figure it out.  It's complicated stuff.

I spend a bunch of  time supporting apps and networks and users,

and I'll tell you what, it  gets frustrating.  I can't blame them

for their warranty  position.  I just approach it from the angle

that I shouldn't be doing  it unless I'm willing to work

hard enough to do it right.



Tim Olson  - RV-10 N104CD - Flying

do not archive

Tony Babb wrote:

[quote]  I have little to no sympathy for PS position I think the problems are 

  completely of their own making and the solution is in their own hands.  

 If their products are difficult to install then they should only sell  

 through resellers who do installation or they should insist on a  harness 

 being purchased, or insist on customers taking a training  course. Seems 

 to me they want it both ways - additional revenue by  selling direct to 

 any retail customer with a credit card and low  service level costs 

 assuming they're selling through qualified  installers.

  

 Back in the early days of PCs there were  numerous issues with customers 

 buying PCs direct from manufacturers  and then not being able to assemble 

 them. Some manufacturers referred  customers to the cheapest tech support 

 they could find ( usually  off-shore with a heavy accent following a 

 script) and others stepped  up to the plate and provided very simple 

 color diagrams - with only  numbers and pictures with no text 

 descriptions that matched the color  coded connectors and cables. Guess 

 which manufacturers are still  around today.....

  

 If you know that your customers are  going to be challenged to install 

 your stuff then you have to look at  the whole customer experience - a 

 flashy stand at Oshkosh doesn't cut  it any more - well designed products 

 with documentation that matches  the expected experience level of your 

 customers. If you can't do that  then get out of the business or you will 

 be overtaken by those who  will.

  

 Tony

 Velocty SEFG 62% done, 78% to  go

 www.alejandra.net/velocity  <http://www.alejandra.net/velocity>

 

      --

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: The Obvious

For many years I worked in QA for office products and the aircraft industry

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:39 am Post subject: The Obvious

At 07:33 PM 3/18/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Something else that may be a gotcha on this system is that they want the jack isolated from aircraft ground and that the shield grounds are back at the ps1000 box, not at the jacks.  I have a pdf schematic of the wiring if any are interested, email off list.  Thanks.

 	


   Yeah, keeping the microphone and headset jacks ISOLATED

   from the airframe is an important noise mitigation 

   technique. B&C has the washer sets.



   I also peeked at the PS Engineering schematics I have

   on the hard-drive. Their depiction of microphone wiring

   is typical of the industry and echoed in all of my 

   drawings as well. If you check the locations of the

   signal contacts on the mic jack symbol, PTT is furthest

   away form the panel bushing, microphone audio is further

   in. It's a subtle thing but imporant.



 

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20090318214830.01c45618(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



 



 

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

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wooody04(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:32 am Post subject: The Obvious

I'll take one Barry

 

 Jim Streit

 wooody04(at)bellsouth.net (wooody04(at)bellsouth.net)

 

 

 b e wrote: [quote]         Something else that may be a gotcha on this system is that they want the jack isolated from aircraft ground and that the shield grounds are back at the ps1000 box, not at the jacks.  I have a pdf schematic of the wiring if any are interested, email off list.  Thanks.

   

 Barry Chapman

 RV-9A

   

   

      From: Jay Hyde <jay(at)horriblehyde.com> (jay(at)horriblehyde.com)

   To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

   Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 4:55:05 PM

   Subject: RE: The Obvious

   

             

Hi there Dave,   

     

I have had exactly the same problem when installing the PM1000 system from PS Engineering; so far I have not been able to solve the problem- your mail gives me a new place to look..  I’ll check it out and report back!   

     

I also encountered the same poor service response from them- extremely bad.  I would not at all recommend PS Eng products based on the extremely poor after sales service.  If I hadn’t already cut the panel I’d go so far as to toss the damned thing out..   

     

The PS Eng guys response was similar to that that you encountered- speak to the avionics agent who installed or sold you the product- I bought it from their stand at Oshkosh last year… to which I got the equivalent of an ‘oh well’ shrug…   

        

Jay   

     

    

            

   

From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-aeroelectric-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of David & Elaine Lamphere

   Sent: 18 March 2009 10:49 PM

   To: aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com (aeroelectric-list(at)matronics.com)

   Subject: The Obvious   

   

        

You know, sometimes the obvious can be the most hidden.... I've been wrestling with  a new intercom (PS1000II) that would stop working when the headset microphone was plugged in. All the wiring checked out, I disconnected it from the radio and everything I could - still it wouldn't work. Definitely didn't get any help from the manufacturer - His email response was anything but friendly or helpful. After a warning message, he just said to read the FAQ's.    

      

    

      

Homebuilders beware, PS Engineering's stand is (here is the exact quote):   

      

    

      

[i]"Who did the installation?"[/i]   

      

[i]"If not installed by a PS Engineering dealer or a PS Engineering custom harness not purchased, the warranty is void."[/i]   

      

    

      

When all I wanted was some information and suggestions how to proceed.   

      

Would I buy anything more from these guys - no way!   

      

    

      

Anyway, 12 hrs into the pursuit, the problem turns out that the mike key and audio hi wires were connected to the wrong jack pins - on each mike jack (pilot, co-pilot, aux).   

      

    

      

On a microphone plug the tip is the mike key connection - NOT the center band like I thought. So obvious and yet so hidden... I'll bet more than one person has been bit by this misunderstanding! How come THAT wasn't in the FAQ's - eh?   

      

    

      

    

      

Now I have to reinstall that harness!   

      

    

      

    

      

Dave L.   

      

    

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rv9jim(at)juno.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:37 am Post subject: The Obvious

Dave,

        I also had the same problem.  My wiring is usually very good as I

check everything twice and follow the schematics faithfully.  I have just

finished my second build.  I have had no problems on my side.  Then  I

needed to have a passenger (finished my phase 1) and I could not talk to

him.  I checked my wiring and thought that the PS1000II was the problem. 

It was out of warranty and they (PS Eng) said that it would cost a bit to

fix the unit if it was bad.  They said that the PS1000II is bullet proof

and they did not think the problem was in their unit.  I had them send a

new unit just in case that was the problem.  I was trying to get my

bi-annual flight check out of the way.   When I swapped the intercom out,

the problem remained.  I went back and did a very close check on the

wiring at the female jack.  I had reversed two of the wires.  I reversed

them to make the wiring correct.  Volia ---  everything worked fine.  I

returned the unit to them and asked if there was a charge for the use.  I

have not received a bill.  This is my second PS1000II I have purchased

from them and if I build another plane I will use them again.  I also

recommend the unit as it will let you set the squelch and volume

independantly.  A great company.  JMHO

____________________________________________________________

Digital Photography - Click Now.

http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmPiIfXkqfNqOqxTJ5qYnEwNAcycaE6tVIULDO9JI4yykXJhRMs/

echristley(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:20 am Post subject: The Obvious

Richard Girard wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   For many years I worked in QA for office products and the aircraft 

 industry. It never ceased to amaze me how companies will become so 

 entrenched in their way of doing things that they fail to take a step 

 back and analyze the costs of problems like these in terms of service 

 and ill will. Taken in that light I'd bet dollars to donuts they'd 

 find it was actually cheaper to bundle the harness with the intercom 

 even without a price increase over the cost of the intercom alone. 

It wouldn't even take a full harness.  Supply a little box and give 
	


instructions to connect each of the mic/earphone combinations to the 

little box.  One wire from the box clips to airframe ground.  There is a 

connector for a 9V battery.  On the front is some green LEDs and some 

red LEDs.  If you have the jack wiring correct, everything lights up 

green.  One of the wires hitting ground will give you a red light.  A 

single sheet of paper will tell you what is wrong with each jack.



The OBAM guys just runs through each of his jacks, and then connects 

them to the intercom as each is confirmed.  Bonus points if the little 

box has a buzzer to confirm sound gets through to the headset.  If they 

don't want to give the things away, take a deposit, send one with each 

unit, and refund the deposit when you get it back.



It's true that selling a highly technical device to the uninitiated is 

difficult, but if you're not willing to confront the difficulty, don't 

do it.  Wiring the intercom is complicated, but it is not complex.  You 

have lots of wires, but each set basically does the same thing.  It is 

just a matter of confirming each piece individually, and then doing the 

same operation several times.  Smart companies take the time to look at 

the problems their customers are having, and then takes steps to address 

them.



-- 



http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org

Bob Collins

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 470
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota

Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:04 am Post subject: The Obvious

I hate to wade into the debate, especially when it's reached the "preachy"

stage (g), but I started tying this model into an Icom A210 radio last week,

then decided to chuck it and spend $200 on a harness from Stein.



http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/2009/03/no-fun-with-wiring-harnesses.html



 Then a friend stepped in to connect the dots:



http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/2009/03/more-on-wiring-a210ps-1000.html

_________________
Bob Collins
St. Paul, Minn.
Letters from Flyover Country
http://rvnewsletter.blogspot.com/

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:33 am Post subject: Re: The Obvious

When wiring my PS audio panel their tech rep spent about 45 minutes on the phone with me until my problem was resolved. Friendly as could be and ended by saying call me back for any further problems.



Much more pleasant than Garmin who, by the way, will void the warranty after an owner install.



Would I buy another PS engineering product?  Absolutely.

_________________
Milt

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