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a stall between 2 fools

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rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

Sorry to butt in with my 2-cents, but, "flying" implies some kind of

control, otherwise, it's just falling with style (apologies to B.

Lightyear).  A house sucked up into a tornado (which, by every image

I've seen, is no longer a house but a collection of boards), a piece

of plywood being blown around by a hurricane... these items are not

flying.  There is no control.  A parachutist who simply jumps and does

nothing else is simply falling.  But if the parachutist purposefully

changes direction, moves away then back, and all those other fancy

moves I've seen them do, then I'd say they were flying.  Just as

surely as a hawk, diving from way above on to a hapless dove, would be

flying.



Thus, an tail section, since there is control, no matter how flat,

providing no lift, positive lift, or negative lift, is flying.



  -- Robert

On 3/28/06, Ed Chmielewski <edchmiel(at)mindspring.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 Hi Pat,



         I'd guess Bob's statement of "No lift from a flat plate? Next, the

 battle of  Bernoulli vs Newton, or who lifts yer wing?" was meant

 tongue-in-cheek.  Lift does not need an "airfoil shape" to be produced, only

 relative wind and angle-of-attack.  In a tornado, do not houses and other

 large, previously unairworthy objects fly?  I would heartily disagree with

 your statement, "Then the tailplane and elevator, considered as one, take on

 a roughly airofoil shape and it is this which produces the `lift`, deflects

 the airflow and the resultant force moves the tail up or down."  The

 elevator in this case can be said to deflect the air (Newton) more than it

 creates an airfoil with the horizontal stab (Bernoulli).  Combinations of

 principals like these explain why aerobatic aircraft with fully-symmetrical

 surfaces are able to fly.

         I would hold that there are no absolutes in aerodynamics theory,

 only combinations of known principals.



         Where's Topher when you really need him??



 Ed in JXN

 Do not archive.

 ---

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

Actually, the dictionary defines flying as "To rise into or move through the 

air" .... and when a Hawk dives on another bird (prey) it's wings are folded 

back against it's body and is in a free fall.



So, is it flying or falling? If it's flying then so is anything else that is 

airborne and independent of any outside support.



My two cents



CM



Do not archive



---

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

P.S. I think that what the point here is, is the difference between "Flight" 

and "Controlled Flight"



Cm



Do not archive

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

Oh boy, I get to disgress even further!  



The hawk isn't in free fall because it's using it's wings to control

direction, speed, etc.



Anyway, I *did* use the word "imply", so it's no fair using a dictionary.  



  -- Robert



oh, and, do not archive



On 3/29/06, Chris Mallory <wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com> wrote:

[quote] 



 Actually, the dictionary defines flying as "To rise into or move through the

 air" .... and when a Hawk dives on another bird (prey) it's wings are folded

 back against it's body and is in a free fall.



 So, is it flying or falling? If it's flying then so is anything else that is

 airborne and independent of any outside support.



 My two cents



 CM



 Do not archive



 ---

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

wcm(at)tampabay.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

I apologize, you are correct...... and I did cheat with the dictionary.



CM



do not archive



---

Larry Cottrell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

---

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

Oh boy, oh boy, I'm having fun now!



"First the speed of gravity is somewhere around 120 MPH."



Uh, okay, but you'll have to inform all of the world's physicists of

this...  they -- the silly guys -- think gravity is 32 ft/sec/sec, and

is an accelerating force, so, in a vacuum, you would continue to

accelerate until you hit something (air molecules, granite boulders,

etc.).  Depending on how far up you started (I won't bother with the

math), you could *way* exceed 120mph.



What you may have meant was the so-called "terminal velocity" of

120mph... that is, a typical human body will create enough resistance

falling through the air, arms and legs flailing, to prevent much

additional speed beyond 120mph.  Now, I'm not certain but, if a human

got into some kind of crouch, or maybe stretched out pointing straight

down, I'd bet they could exceed that "terminal" velocity, maybe even

up to 200mph.



The point about the hawk/falcon was that it isn't falling when it

dives for its prey, but had control over it's aerodynamic surfaces so

is, thus, flying, in my truly humble opinion.  Again, I'm not sure,

but I think you were agreeing with me.  The falcon is a truly

wonderful creature!



  -- Robert



do not archive

On 3/29/06, Larry Cottrell <lcottrel(at)kfalls.net> wrote:

[quote] 

 ---

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:39 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

Joe Kittinger, the holder of the free-fall altitude record (103,000 ft. or 

so, IIRC) purportedly exceeded Mach 1 and used a drogue chute to slow down 

and stabilize in the descent.



Ed in JXN

Do not archive.



---

Russ Kinne

Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Posts: 182

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

I'll chime in briefly, too. In parachuting a body in  free-fall,  

flat, face-to-earth, will attain a steady 120MPH. Fold the arms back,  

making a teardrop shape, and you can get to 200MPH. Saying "speed of  

gravity is about 120" is inaccurate.

  I'd say a falcon with wings folded is still flying; i.e, under  

controlled passage thru the air. And I envy you your peregrine! --  

what a fantastic bird --

FWIW



Do not archive



[quote] 

 <lcottrel(at)kfalls.net>

 ---

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

|  And I envy you your peregrine! --

| what a fantastic bird --

Here's Stink, the falcon Larry had when we met him and Karen in the 

Alvord Dessert:



http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/Hauck's%20Stuff/MV%202005%20Flight/DSCF2896.JPG



http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/Hauck's%20Stuff/MV%202005%20Flight/DSCF2897.JPG



Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!  Life on the Alvord.  Only with a Kolb!



http://www.c-gate.net/~ppetty/Hauck's%20Stuff/MV%202005%20Flight/DSCF2901.JPG

johnh

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Larry Cottrell

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 35
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: a stall between 2 fools

I was going to drop this line of thought since it really was not Kolb related, but then John posted a picture of Stink, MY WIFE'S BIRD, and the tail feathers of my firestar was in the background, so I guess that makes it ok.  My bird, Jessie, is attached. She is a Tundra Peregrine, and getting to be a character as well.  Yes they are indeed flying when they stoop (dive) since they can hit a fleeing duck or pheasant anywhere they want to with serious results.

Larry

Jessie,Indy and Betsy.JPG

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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:30 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

| I was going to drop this line of thought since it really was not 

Kolb related, but then John posted a picture of Stink, MY WIFE'S BIRD, 

and the tail feathers of my firestar was in the background, so I guess 

that makes it ok.   | Larry

Your falcons make a lot more sense to me than some of the BS that has 

been bouncing around the Kolb List lately.



Never in my life thought I would ever get a chance to get up close and 

cozy with a perigrine.  My first encounter was a nesting area near the 

pipeline haul road not far south of Deadhorse, Alaska.  This was an 

off limits area and the only reason it got my attention.



The few days I got to spend with Larry and Karen and the falcon in the 

dessert was a wonderful experience.  Still waiting for a chance to 

watch them hunt.  Some day I will get to experience this too.



john h

mkIII



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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

terry(at)juliaswartz.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:10 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

For all of you into falcons, check the following site. You can watch the

hatching; feeding, etc. live on the internet from Harrisburg PA.



http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/falcon/



Terry Swartz

www.juliaswartz.com

Watercolor paintings, Oil Paintings, Fine Art Prints, & Canvas Prints.

The few days I got to spend with Larry and Karen and the falcon in the 

dessert was a wonderful experience.  Still waiting for a chance to 

watch them hunt.  Some day I will get to experience this too.



john h

mkIII



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herbgh

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 145

Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: a stall between 2 fools

What you naysayers forget  is that   a falcon is just one big vortex

generator!!   Herb 

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:09:12 -0500 "Terry Swartz" <terry(at)juliaswartz.com>

writes:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <terry(at)juliaswartz.com>

 

 For all of you into falcons, check the following site. You can watch 

 the

 hatching; feeding, etc. live on the internet from Harrisburg PA.

 

 http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/falcon/

 

 Terry Swartz

 www.juliaswartz.com

 Watercolor paintings, Oil Paintings, Fine Art Prints, & Canvas 

 Prints.

 

 

 The few days I got to spend with Larry and Karen and the falcon in 

 the 

 dessert was a wonderful experience.  Still waiting for a chance to 

 watch them hunt.  Some day I will get to experience this too.

 

 john h

 mkIII

 

 DO NOT ARCHIVE

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