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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:33 am Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

I guess I am hard headed but I always wind up going out to fly in mid day conditions.  I hate getting up early and I hate going out late and getting home late especially with the time change having it get dark around 8 so I choose to fly in mid day conditions.



I don't know how rough it is in larger planes but it sure gives me a workout keeping the wings level and the airspeed and altitude constant. The winds were not bad at 5 to 10mph but thermals were! 



Its fun though and I can climb over it.  It has helped me flying in these conditions to become more comfortable with the airplane. The rough air still makes me a little nervous at times especially low on final when I get a good toss.



I have posted 21 videos! WOW I didnt realize I was enjoying this camera so much. 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i83zmWxqpZM&fmt=18



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gvs3PaElJM&fmt=18

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

That kind of air brings up my only complaint regarding my Kolb.   

Strong up/down drafts involve

what I consider to be excessive pitch changes and corrections.   

Whether it is a symptom

of only my individual airplane is open to question.  I would prefer  

that the result of a

sudden boost from below would involve less noticeable speed and pitch  

changes.

Wing leveling corrections are understandable and are common to all  

craft but

watching the ASI go from 40 to 80 in a matter of seconds is not  

comfortable.

BB, always bitchin about sumthin



I

On 25, Mar 2009, at 8:33 AM, grantr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>



 I guess I am hard headed but I always wind up going out to fly in  

 mid day conditions.  I hate getting up early and I hate going out  

 late and getting home late especially with the time change having  

 it get dark around 8 so I choose to fly in mid day conditions.



 I don't know how rough it is in larger planes but it sure gives me  

 a workout keeping the wings level and the airspeed and altitude  

 constant. The winds were not bad at 5 to 10mph but thermals were!



 Its fun though and I can climb over it.  It has helped me flying in  

 these conditions to become more comfortable with the airplane. The  

 rough air still makes me a little nervous at times especially low  

 on final when I get a good toss.



 I have posted 21 videos! WOW I didnt realize I was enjoying this  

 camera so much.



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i83zmWxqpZM&fmt=18



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gvs3PaElJM&fmt=18





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 36075#236075

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:34 am Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

> Wing leveling corrections are understandable and are common to all

 	  Quote: 	
		   craft but

 watching the ASI go from 40 to 80 in a matter of seconds is not 

 comfortable.

 BB, always bitchin about sumthin


	




Hey Bob!



Might be that unconventional power plant.  



Seriously, and I'll try my best to be, that is not a common problem with 

Kolb aircraft, of any model, that I am aware of.



I don't like rough air either, but in most cases, if you are going to get 

where you are going, ya gotta fly...



John W and I had a unwritten law of anything over 25 mph ground speed was 

reason for staying on the ground.  We demonstrated that May 2008, when we 

spent three days waiting for the wind to subside at Ontario, OR.  The wind 

averaged about 45 mph for all three days and nights.  Got used to walking 

around at odd angles.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:49 am Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

> John W and I had a unwritten law of anything over 25 mph  wind speed on 

the ground was

 	  Quote: 	
		   reason for staying on the ground.  We demonstrated that May 2008, when we 

 spent three days waiting for the wind to subside at Ontario, OR.  The wind 

 averaged about 45 mph for all three days and nights.  Got used to walking 

 around at odd angles.



 john h

 mkIII


	




The above is what I meant, but not what I wrote in my original post.



john h

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

 	  slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  That kind of air brings up my only complaint regarding my Kolb.   

Strong up/down drafts involve

what I consider to be excessive pitch changes and corrections.   

Whether it is a symptom

of only my individual airplane is open to question.  I would prefer  

that the result of a

sudden boost from below would involve less noticeable speed and pitch  

changes.

Wing leveling corrections are understandable and are common to all  

craft but

watching the ASI go from 40 to 80 in a matter of seconds is not  

comfortable.

BB, always bitchin about sumthin

	




My FSII did that as well in thermally conditions, but then again the Kolb isn't an Edge 540 as far as control authority goes. 



The last time I flew my FSII in midday thermals was one hot day back in TX and that was indeed the last time I ever did that. 



The titan has significantly higher limits in stuff like that, but even then I prefer not to battle airmasses that are trying to slam the plane into the ground while I'm trying to land.

The trip back here to NM from nebraska, I ran into the midday stuff over Kansas, as that was about 1 or 2 in the afternoon when I was out in that particular area. I had it slowed down to 90 and even 85mph, and I was still getting popped up into the shoulder straps from time to time.



I've just accepted over the years that I don't like flying on the edge of control. Regular full-stop control movements just to maintain flight or keep the plane out of the dirt isn't a region I like to be in. I'm ok being a wuss nowadays.



but in good smooth air, there wasn't a much more fun plane to climb into than my FSII. Even after I'd bought the titan and before I had to sell er, I was usually in the FSII in late afternoons shooting wheel landings or sightseeing rather than the other plane.



I can tell I'm pining away for that plane a bit. The firefly idea keeps coming back too...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

I am guilty of flying too low also.  25 mph wind over the flatlands  

is fine.

When the terrain is bumpy it's time to climb.

The lumpiest part of most of my rides is when I descend to the  

rolling hillsides

returning to my home strip.

BB

On 25, Mar 2009, at 10:32 AM, John Hauck wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > Wing leveling corrections are understandable and are common to all

> craft but

> watching the ASI go from 40 to 80 in a matter of seconds is not  

> comfortable.

> BB, always bitchin about sumthin

 Hey Bob!

 Might be that unconventional power plant.  

 Seriously, and I'll try my best to be, that is not a common problem  

 with Kolb aircraft, of any model, that I am aware of.

 I don't like rough air either, but in most cases, if you are going  

 to get where you are going, ya gotta fly...

 John W and I had a unwritten law of anything over 25 mph ground  

 speed was reason for staying on the ground.  We demonstrated that  

 May 2008, when we spent three days waiting for the wind to subside  

 at Ontario, OR.  The wind averaged about 45 mph for all three days  

 and nights.  Got used to walking around at odd angles.

 john h

 mkIII

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

I hate being throw up in the shoulder harness! I hate roller coasters and thats what it feels like when the negative Gs occur!  

My asi didn't fluctuate much over 10mph and the fluctuations were mostly positive gaining asi. Strong up/down drafts  do not seem to be that big of an issue in my plane. There are times when I have to be aggressive with fore or aft stick to overcome a vertical gust but for the most part I only make minor pitch changes to maintain a stable pitch attitude.



I did have a lot of horizontal gust which was causing my plane to yaw around a bit. You can see it happen alot in the videos. Just the ole girl wagging her tail.   

I guess thats just a matter of where you are in relationship to the up or down draft as to how it affects the airplane's axes

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:29 pm Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

At 12:54 PM 3/25/09 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I am guilty of flying too low also.  25 mph wind over the flatlands  

is fine.

When the terrain is bumpy it's time to climb.

The lumpiest part of most of my rides is when I descend to the  

rolling hillsides

returning to my home strip.

BB


	


Bob,



In southeast Missouri I always flew mid day because the airport was 37 miles 

away.  With the original ailerons, the FireFly could not be controlled in 

roll.  One had to kick rudder to help lift a wing and so flying mid day was 

an exercise in dutch rolls.  I found that I could not tolerate an hour or so 

of dutch rolls and so mounted nine inch chord ailerons.  They were 

wonderful.  With them the FireFly may bob up and down a little, but with 

light stick side pressure, one could keep the wings level.  It made mid day 

flying very tolerable with out worrying about up chucking.



I have continued to fly at mid day as it is more interesting.  If I am going 

somewhere, I climb to at least 2,000 feet and mostly to 3,000 feet agl.  There 

I discovered the thermal and winter weather rolls are greatly abated.  By 

doing this there is only five to ten minutes of very active air that has to 

be tolerated climbing up or gliding down.



The only time I do not feel comfortable in the FireFly is if I do not have 

my shoulder straps snug.  If I can feel my back coming off the sling seat 

back, I get uncomfortable.  During turbulent flight, if I do not move 

relative the FireFly, I am ok.  Weird things will happen, but a bit of 

pressure on the stick and/or rudder usually set thing right.



One of the advantages of flying mid day with the thermals, is that you can 

pick up about five mph ground speed by following a thermal street.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

I have flown my MK III Xtra through mid day thermals, and it has never been a problem in pitch.  The MK III Xtra has very good control in pitch and have only needed small fore and aft stick pressures to maintain level flight.  I have never ever even come close to using just half stick for pitch control in turbulence.



Roll control in my Kolb was to slow for me, I have never had to use rudder to get the airplane to roll level in turbulence, but it was slower than I liked so I added the Aileron Spades.  With the addition of aileron spades on my Kolb, it is very controllable in roll, but being used to flying airplanes with very responsive ailerons, I am hoping to get a little better roll rate and lighter roll forces with my wingtip mod which will keep any wingtip vortices off the ailerons.   Time will tell when I do this project.



Remember when flying in thermals, its not just air rising and sinking, the air is swirling and moving all over the place in horizontal directions as well as vertical, so some yaw and other weird movements will happen.  I never see changes in airspeed over 10 MPH in turbulence though.  Gusts of 40 MPH are reason not believe the airspeed indicator though, that kind of air movement would result in severe turbulence even in a heavy jet, and would make a light airplane unflyable, and is very very rare unless in a thunderstorm or other extreme and rare condition.   Heavier airplanes tend not to get thrown around so much in turbulence, and the airfoil also has a big effect on this.  As John H says, the flat bottom Kolb wing loves to lift, and if there is a vertical gust, it will lift the heck out of the plane immediately, more so than other wings !  With a very high lift, slow speed wing, feeling the bumps comes with the territory.



I like flying in the mornings and evenings, I don't fly mid day unless I need to go somewhere.  Funny thing is my wife actually likes the turbulence, I can let her fly in the worst mid day stuff I can find and she says she wants more.  One day I told her that is she likes turbulence so much that she should fly under one of the many thunderstorms we have here in South Florida.  She said she would like to but had doubts as to weather the plane could handle it !  Here are some pictures flying in some convection induced turbulence, if you notice the airspeed, I do slow down for turbulence, it helps 



Mike

UltralightAerialKolbFloridaEverglades.JPG

Description:

Underneath some rough buildups that would like nothing better than to suck up an unsuspecting Kolb !

Filesize:

246.54 KB

Viewed:

16620 Time(s)

UltralightAerialKolbFloridaEvergladesThunderStorms.JPG

Description:

Found a Hole !!!

Filesize:

254.52 KB

Viewed:

16621 Time(s)

UltralightAerialKolbFloridaHomestead.JPG

Description:

Rain From small storm, not dangerous but rough !

Filesize:

285.56 KB

Viewed:

16621 Time(s)

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

ropermike

Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 40
Location: West Texas, South Mississippi

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:13 am Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

I purchased my MK II in south Ms and flew it there for 6 months before bringing it home to West Texas. After unloading the plane in the middle of the summer afternoon, I couldnt resist taking it for a spin. I was shocked as it nearly beat me to death and my aileron control was very sluggish at times! It didnt take me long to get back on the ground! I found out pretty quick why they have the yearly world championship hang gliding competition 20 miles north in Big Springs, Texas......I am a early morning/ late evening flyer as I like to fly at 1000' agl or lower on my pleasure missions. I try to go up on short flights in the midday thermals every now and then just to train myself and get used to the rough air but I am still very uncomfortable. Until a few years ago, I had owned and flown a Piper Pacer for 10 years and never remember it being that rough, but then again, most of my flights with the Pacer was climbing up high and going somewhere.

_________________
The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing!...Mike Hillger

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:46 am Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

At 09:13 AM 3/26/2009, ropermike wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  ...rough air but I am still very uncomfortable. Until a few years ago, I 

had owned and flown a Piper Pacer for 10 years and never remember it being 

that rough, but then again, most of my flights with the Pacer was climbing 

up high and going somewhere...


	


Your Pacer had short wings and a much higher wing loading than a Kolb.



-Dana



--

  Hangover: The Wrath of Grapes.

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

It takes a bit of  aileron input to correct for some for the gusts. A few points in the video you can see I am having to just hold the stick to the left to keep the wing down.



Next time I will get the angle set so you can see my stick inputs better.



I wish the plane did have a quicker roll response.  

I guess what we try to avoid is what glider pilots love to get in. I wonder how rough the air feels in a glider or  hang glider.

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  I guess I am hard headed but I always wind up going out to fly in mid day conditions.  I hate getting up early and I hate going out late and getting home late especially with the time change having it get dark around 8 so I choose to fly in mid day conditions.



I don't know how rough it is in larger planes but it sure gives me a workout keeping the wings level and the airspeed and altitude constant. The winds were not bad at 5 to 10mph but thermals were! 



Its fun though and I can climb over it.  It has helped me flying in these conditions to become more comfortable with the airplane. The rough air still makes me a little nervous at times especially low on final when I get a good toss.



I have posted 21 videos! WOW I didnt realize I was enjoying this camera so much. 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i83zmWxqpZM&fmt=18



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gvs3PaElJM&fmt=18 	




Grant, 

That did not look like fun.  When I flew to the Douglas Fly-In everyone was taking off around noon or 1 so I thought I'd give it a try although I knew from flying before in similar conditions that I wouldn't like it.  Sure enough I got in the air and the thermals/winds rolled me to the left and what seemed like an eternity (but was probably only 3 or 4 seconds) I was finally able to get control back.  I just turned my little tail around and headed for the nice comfy recliner at the FBO and waited until evening.  Then I had a very nice, enjoyable flight home in the evening.  



I'm glad to see other's comments here with similar experiences.



Hey, I also saw your snow video!  That was so funny.  You must have been really excited when filming it.  That snow chased me all the way from Illinois.  I was driving my car and everytime I stopped it would start snowing or icing.  So I headed east and stopped at Jim Kmet's airport and rested for a few hours.  Woke up around 4am and saw 2-3 inches of snow already building up.  So I got back on the road and plowed my own route through the unplowed mountain roads (being VERY careful not to fall off the mountain...ha!).  And when I finally made it to Tifton, GA it dried up and we never saw any of it in Waycross.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  It takes a bit of  aileron input to correct for some for the gusts. A few points in the video you can see I am having to just hold the stick to the left to keep the wing down.



Next time I will get the angle set so you can see my stick inputs better.



I wish the plane did have a quicker roll response.  

I guess what we try to avoid is what glider pilots love to get in. I wonder how rough the air feels in a glider or  hang glider. 	




In a glider it's nothin.. no matter how rough you don't care in the glider and just want more. Those things are so stable with those super long wings....



It's just on landing that all the fun you had in the air suddenly goes away. 



That's why I basically stopped with sailplanes myself, you have to land in those conditions because you also have to fly in them. Slamming airplanes onto the ground is not the kind of fun I want to have. 



So I went crawling back to powered flight in the evenings and have never looked back.



Now a motorglider, on the other hand... that'd give you the best of both worlds if you really needed to fly in midday conditions...... 

But who can afford one of those? 



We're fine with our small planes I think...



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

At 11:51 AM 3/26/09 -0700, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Next time I will get the angle set so you can see my stick inputs better.



I guess what we try to avoid is what glider pilots love to get in. I wonder 

how rough the air feels in a glider or  hang glider.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


It feels great.  Loose shoulder straps let you beat your head against the 

canopy.  Altitude is important, as you are continously flying just above 

stall.  When something unexpected happens, altitude gives you some time to 

figure out what is going on or what to do.  The best part is that there is 

no engine noise or vibration that mask ones inputs.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hey, I also saw your snow video! That was so funny. You must have been really excited when filming it. 	




Yep giddy as a school girl on a playground   My Wife and i did have a blast running around in it and throwing snow balls.  Someone down the road made a snow man.  It was nice to see the snow and it was nice to see it go away.



The 1st few times I flew in mid day conditions solo it scared the crap out of me. Actually on  my 2nd solo flight i encountered some rough air and man that made me nervous. I was literally shaking.  Now I get a tad nervous in the real rough bumps but nothing like before. The more comfortable you become with the bumpy air the more you will enjoy flying in it as it doesn't bother you as much. 



 Nothing beats a late afternoon flight or early morning one though. Thats like sitting in a lounge chair in the sky.

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

[quote="grantr"] 	  Quote: 	
		  The more comfortable you become with the bumpy air the more you will enjoy flying in it as it doesn't bother you as much. 



 Nothing beats a late afternoon flight or early morning one though. Thats like sitting in a lounge chair in the sky. 	




I flew my friend's RV-9 and there was a HUGE difference in the way his plane handled the turbulence.  It was still very bumpy (couldn't even grab hold of the dial to turn up my headset), but I still felt like I was in control of the plane.  With my Mark II, I don't know if it's those big flaperons that does it but the turbulence will roll me and turn me and the controls just don't respond quick enough for me to be comfortable.  I've tried it several times and it's just not something I WANT to get comfortable with or used to.  I'll stick to evening/morning flights in my Mark II.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

[quote="cristalclear13"] 	  grantr wrote: 	
		  

I flew my friend's RV-9 and there was a HUGE difference in the way his plane handled the turbulence.  It was still very bumpy (couldn't even grab hold of the dial to turn up my headset), but I still felt like I was in control of the plane.  With my Mark II, I don't know if it's those big flaperons that does it but the turbulence will roll me and turn me and the controls just don't respond quick enough for me to be comfortable.  I've tried it several times and it's just not something I WANT to get comfortable with or used to.  I'll stick to evening/morning flights in my Mark II. 	




Oh yeah, that's true - the former partner in my plane bought an RV6-A about a year ago. You can fly that thing in any old hurricane or dust devils you want and you barely have to move the stick. 



You basically don't have to worry about it until it just gets so bad that even the big iron can't fly.



But of course, that's why you spend upwards of 100 large to build one of those things... and drink a fortune in gas.... and the view isn't too hot either....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: Flying videos thermals!

but the turbulence will roll me and turn me and the controls just don't 

respond quick enough for me to be comfortable.>>



You are comparing apples and oranges. The two planes are built to do 

different things, just look at the wing loadings!

If you you fly a low wing loading plane like the Kolb it is pointless 

complaining that it doesn`t handle like P45.



Cheers



Pat

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:25 am Post subject: Re: Flying videos thermals!

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  but the turbulence will roll me and turn me and the controls just don't 

respond quick enough for me to be comfortable.>>



You are comparing apples and oranges. The two planes are built to do 

different things, just look at the wing loadings!

If you you fly a low wing loading plane like the Kolb it is pointless 

complaining that it doesn`t handle like P45.



Cheers



Pat 	




Lucien and Pat,

You guys are misunderstanding me.  I am not complaining about my Mark II in any way or wanting some other plane.  I LOVE my Kolb and how it handles and flies and lands and takes off and taxis and anything else I could possibly think that my plane does.  I wouldn't trade it for anything.  I am just explaining why I don't fly in mid-day thermals in it.  This is no problem for me.  Like when I went to Douglas, I was in no rush to get home, matter of fact the nice rest I got on their big comfy recliner was quite refreshing (especially after standing around in the hot sun all morning) before I made the trek home that evening.  I fly for the relaxation and the VIEW.  Nothing beats the view in my Kolb...nothing!

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

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