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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:26 am Post subject: lawyers

Kolb people C

  

   I threw that together in the course of an hour and a half.  I'd love to see someone try to sue me C after signing this.  I wouldn't need a lawyer.  I'd send a copy registered mail to their attorney C after I was notified I was being sued.  

  

   Their attorney would ask for more "retainer" and then advise them "YOU DIDN'T TELL ME THIS!!!!"   "Am I supposed to go into court and tell the judge C oops C we forgot this??!!"

  

   Any single one of the items breached in the contract/hold harmless agreement C breaches the whole thing.  

  

   Maybe because I've been through the process C and have had to deal with so many scumbag attorneys (redundant C I know) that I am not hung up on this stuff.  If you don't know anything else C you've GOT to know this!!!!  Attorneys don't do a damn thing unless they make the big bucks.  And seeing their clients notarized signature on my HH Form wouldn't look too promising.

  

   Yes C the EAA probably does have a HH form C but I didn't look.

  

 Mike Welch

Internet Explorer 8 – Get your Hotmail Accelera'_new'>Download free!  [quote][b]

NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:50 am Post subject: lawyers

Mike

  

 When the widow is standing in court crying with her six  kids the jury tends to overlook any hold harmless form. Your right about  the money thing. If you still have a big TARP bonus check, deep pockets, or  airplane liability insurance you will be a target. For the rest of us it isn't  worth the lawyers time.

  

 I personally like the statement in the hold harmless that  states that this airplane is guaranteed to kill.

  

 Rick Neilsen

 Redrive VW powered MKIIIC

 [quote]   ---

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:07 am Post subject: lawyers

From what I understand, well written hold harmless agreements can be 

effective in preventing the person who signed it from bringing legal action 

against you, but it's not binding on his heirs, even if there is verbage to 

that effect on the paper... IOW if he crashes and dies you can still be 

sued by his wife and/or kids.  However, I've also read that including a 

stipulation in the agreement that any disputes be settled by binding 

arbitration rather than the courts IS binding on the heirs... and 

arbitration by a group of people knowledgeable in the aviation world would 

likely go much better for the seller than a jury of people who've never 

seen an airplane smaller than a 737/



-Dana

--

  But it's NOT an ASSAULT Weapon, it's a DEFENSE weapon!

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: lawyers

Rick C



 



  This widow C who has six kids C is the same one who's husband spent all of their money on home-built airplanes C isn't she??



 



  In truth C not very many lawsuits of this scope go to trial.  They usually are decided by a judge C or mediated C or arbitrated.  Remember C we're not talking Cessna C or Cirrus C just Billy Bob.



 



  All the barstool legal advice (from me and others) doesn't diminish a thorough HH Agreement.  NOT everything in this world is someone else's (previous) fault!!  Sometimes C believe it or not C it is the guy that flew the plane's fault.  I still maintain that if this guy's lawyer got his mitts on your copy of the HH Agreement C signed and notorized by his client C there just isn't going to be much further legal action.  When there is no payday for the bloodsucker C they move on ambulance chasing C and asbestos claims.



 



Mike Welch



 

 

From: NeilsenRM(at)comcast.net

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: lawyers

Date: Tue C 31 Mar 2009 11:49:22 -0400





Mike

 

When the widow is standing in court crying with her six kids the jury tends to overlook any hold harmless form. Your right about the money thing. If you still have a big TARP bonus check C deep pockets C or airplane liability insurance you will be a target. For the rest of us it isn't worth the lawyers time.

 

I personally like the statement in the hold harmless that states that this airplane is guaranteed to kill.

 

Rick Neilsen

Redrive VW powered MKIIIC



---

Jim ODay

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 61
Location: Fargo North Dakota

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:03 am Post subject: Re: lawyers

I discussed this with a personal injury lawyer.  He advised me to destroy the aircraft if I no longer wanted to be 100% safe.  I did not follow his advise and sold the plane.



The other defense to be safe is to be 100% broke.  Civil litigation is always about money; no money = no litigation.

_________________
Jim O'Day
Fargo, ND
Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: lawyers

Jim C

  

   You found one of those worthless attorneys I mentioned.  To suggest you destroy the plane is just plain stupid C stupid C stupid!!  

   Selling the plane was more intelligent than his advice.

  

   Remember people C we are talking about attorneys here.  Some good C and some not so good.  

 It's not like we were dealing with the best of the best....like community organizers C or anything.

  

 Mike Welch

 And BB C that was funny as hell!!

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Subject: Kolb-List: Re: lawyers

 From: jimoday(at)hotmail.com

 Date: Tue C 31 Mar 2009 12:03:24 -0700

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jim ODay" <jimoday(at)hotmail.com>

 

 I discussed this with a personal injury lawyer. He advised me to destroy the aircraft if I no longer wanted it to be 100% safe. I did not follow his advise and sold the plane.

 

 The other defense to be safe is to be 100% broke. Civil litigation is always about money; no money = no litigation.

 

 --------

 Jim O'Day

 Fargo C ND

 Former Firestar II Builder/Pilot

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=237074#237074

 

 

 

 ====================

 

 

 

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grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: lawyers

So I guess selling a car or motorcycle could result in the same crap.



Ok say I sell my plane to someone and they take it home crash it and die. Now the family hires a lawyer to sue me for selling them an unsafe aircraft. They would probably say I willingly sold the person an aircraft that I knew was not safe to fly.



What if i had a video of the demo flight performed by me and the guy on tape reading and agreeing to the hold harmless form.



Would that be good evidence?



And to protect my financial assets what if upon receipt of the notice of the pending lawsuit, I moved all of my assets over to my wife's name that way i did not own a dime? 



Cant be sued if you don't have anything right?

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: lawyers

You could always sell it to me cheap and I could ship it down under. We do 

not sue people in our part of the world as we understand the principal of 

personal responsability, also our legal system is not set up for this. Surly 

anyone building a hot rod or restoring a old car must face the same problem. 

The mind boggles. The only ones to make a fortune are the lawyers but then 

again the lawyers make the laws.



Tony

Downunder

MK111

---

Fran Losey

Joined: 21 Feb 2009
Posts: 61
Location: Boca Raton, FL

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:40 am Post subject: lawyers

How refreshing to know there are still Countries with their heads on straight!  

---

_________________
Fran Losey
N62FL (reserved)

loseyf@comcast.net

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:55 am Post subject: lawyers

Mike,



Good job on the HH. I too have been frivolously sued.  It is no fun

and not cheap regardless of who "wins."



Thom in Buffalo

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:35 am Post subject: lawyers

Thanks Thom C

  

   When I was sued C it wasn't so much as frivolous C as it was misdirected.  I was a concrete contractor C and used a very rarely used concrete supplier to pour a customer some flatwork.

 The concrete was bad.  People sued me C I settled.  Then I sued the concrete supplier.  I won.

  

   With regard to building and selling your home-built airplane C there is way too much "hype" C fear factor C and lack of knowledge.  There are all kinds of myths that some people keep alive C but the simple truth is C being sued for building a plane is incredibly rare.  Sure C there's lots of horror stories C but these are 99% BS.  (again C we're referrring to private parties here C not commercial)

  

   People should just relax C enjoy building and flying their Kolbs.  When the time comes to sell it C get a thorough Hold Harmless Agreement (notorized) C and rest easy.

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

  

   

 

[quote] Date: Wed C 1 Apr 2009 07:54:47 -0400

 Subject: Re: lawyers

 From: riddletr(at)gmail.com

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Thomas R. Riddle" <riddletr(at)gmail.com>

 

 Mike C

 

 Good job on the HH. I too have been frivolously sued. It is no fun

 and not cheap regardless of ===

 

 

 

Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you.  Check it out.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

russ(at)rkiphoto.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:21 am Post subject: lawyers

Grant

Unfortunately, the lawyers saw that one coming long ago. You cannot  

divest yourself of your assets at the last minute to get some  

protection. Doesn't work.

Even with the best of evidence, defending yourself would be way too  

expensive.

And arbitration is way better all around, than litigation. I've had  

experience  with the American Arbitration Ass'n; they're good and  

work well. BUT like the court judges, they select the next persons  

available, regardless of their knowledge or lack thereof, about the  

subject at hand. Just take the next man /woman in line. Another flaw  

in  our system. So you could get a board that didn't know much about,  

or even didn't like, aviation. Big crap-shoot. Bah!

On Mar 31, 2009, at 4:46 PM, grantr wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>



 So I guess selling a car or motorcycle could result in the same crap.



 Ok say I sell my plane to someone and they take it home crash it  

 and die. Now the family hires a lawyer to sue me for selling them  

 an unsafe aircraft. They would probably say I willingly sold the  

 person an aircraft that I knew was not safe to fly.



 What if i had a video of the demo flight performed by me and the  

 guy on tape reading and agreeing to the hold harmless form.



 Would that be good evidence?



 And to protect my financial assets what if upon receipt of the  

 notice of the pending lawsuit, I moved all of my assets over to my  

 wife's name that way i did not own a dime?



 Cant be sued if you don't have anything right?





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 37094#237094

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:13 am Post subject: lawyers

At 09:19 AM 4/1/2009, russ kinne wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...I've had

experience  with the American Arbitration Ass'n; they're good and

work well. BUT like the court judges, they select the next persons

available, regardless of their knowledge or lack thereof, about the

subject at hand. Just take the next man /woman in line. Another flaw

in  our system. So you could get a board that didn't know much about,

or even didn't like, aviation...


	


Seems one could specify in the hold harmless agreement that any arbitration 

would by individuals involved in the aviation industry; that's what I 

recall seeing suggested when I read about it some time ago.  Granted I know 

nothing about the process.



-Dana



do not archive

--

  Help Wanted: Telepath. You know where to apply.

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