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Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:09 pm Post subject: - now Compass Card

On Sun, March 29, 2009 9:34 pm, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I was trying to get at two things...  First of all most compass swings are

 not done anywhere near a compass rose.


	


I'm maybe forgetting something or just naive but that where I have done them. On two

the compasses you had a little plastic screw to turn that would set the indicator

perfect for north then south then east then west. You then updated the deviations on

the compass card but they were all zero.



The other type compass had no such adjuster and you just filled out the deviations at

each 45 deg heading change.



Then since the compass isn't stable and depending on your heading can actually swing

the wrong direction when you start a turn, I have always used a DG as the primary

heading indicator and set the DG to the compass with any applied deviation.



 	  Quote: 	
		    They are expensive and time

 consuming to do and even when done correctly parallax errors can throw

 everything off.


	


I assume you mean they are expensive if you pay an instrument shop to do them in order

to comply with some kind of inane rule. Maybe the compass police are eventually going

to toss me in the clink. I'm just sort of a bad person, I guess. Some laws just don't

seem to apply to me personally.



Now, I have a vague understanding of parallax error as it applies to a lens but at the

moment am lacking the brain power to extend my limited conceptual familiarization with

parallax to a compass. Please contribute some regular sized words on the subject.



 	  Quote: 	
		    There fore corrections are estimated by which way the wind

 was blowing the day the correction card was filled out.


	


Now I am really concerned that I am more than a little uninformed because I cannot

imagine what wind has to do with recording compass errors on a card. Maybe the wind is

gusty and rocking the airplane and the compass? Or, of course, it could be blowing

magnetic particles that I don't know about. But again, I need some regular sized words

on this one too - how does wind affect magnetic compass calibration?



 	  Quote: 	
		   The second thing I was getting at is the magnetic compass is the last

 instrument used in IFR and other than to hold a heading isn't used in VFR.


	


That must be a matter of flying technique. You don't even bother with a compass when

you have a DG, IFR or VFR. You only need the compass to set the DG.



Of course, this might be a matter of procedure you do on an exam. Been a long time for

me and it hasn't been an issue on any BFR that I have taken. That too could be my

fault since BFR's are usually dominated by my questions and pleas for current best

practice. The instructors usually enjoy telling you and showing you what they know

more than anything else so maybe I have side tracked them all over the last 35 years.

I've managed to successfully have the medical examiners keep probing fingers to

themselves every time too so I might be pushing my luck.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as

the greatest of dangers to be feared.  To preserve our independence, we must

not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.  If we run into such debts, we

must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts,

in our labor and in our amusements.  If we can prevent the government from

wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they

will be happy.

                -- Thomas Jefferson

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: - now Compass Card

A compass could be useful when encountering very low visibility conditions.

  

 Cecil

 Kitfox IV 582 1050

   

 On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)>

 

On Sun, March 29, 2009 9:34 pm, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>



 I was trying to get at two things...  First of all most compass swings are

 > not done anywhere near a compass rose.
	




I'm maybe forgetting something or just naive but that where I have done them. On two

the compasses you had a little plastic screw to turn that would set the indicator

 perfect for north then south then east then west. You then updated the deviations on

the compass card but they were all zero.



The other type compass had no such adjuster and you just filled out the deviations at

 each 45 deg heading change.



Then since the compass isn't stable and depending on your heading can actually swing

the wrong direction when you start a turn, I have always used a DG as the primary

heading indicator and set the DG to the compass with any applied deviation.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		    They are expensive and time

 consuming to do and even when done correctly parallax errors can throw

 everything off.


	


I assume you mean they are expensive if you pay an instrument shop to do them in order

 to comply with some kind of inane rule. Maybe the compass police are eventually going

to toss me in the clink. I'm just sort of a bad person, I guess. Some laws just don't

seem to apply to me personally.

 

Now, I have a vague understanding of parallax error as it applies to a lens but at the

moment am lacking the brain power to extend my limited conceptual familiarization with

parallax to a compass. Please contribute some regular sized words on the subject.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		    There fore corrections are estimated by which way the wind

 was blowing the day the correction card was filled out.


	


Now I am really concerned that I am more than a little uninformed because I cannot

 imagine what wind has to do with recording compass errors on a card. Maybe the wind is

gusty and rocking the airplane and the compass? Or, of course, it could be blowing

magnetic particles that I don't know about. But again, I need some regular sized words

 on this one too - how does wind affect magnetic compass calibration?



 	  Quote: 	
		   The second thing I was getting at is the magnetic compass is the last

 instrument used in IFR and other than to hold a heading isn't used in VFR.

 
	


That must be a matter of flying technique. You don't even bother with a compass when

you have a DG, IFR or VFR. You only need the compass to set the DG.



Of course, this might be a matter of procedure you do on an exam. Been a long time for

 me and it hasn't been an issue on any BFR that I have taken. That too could be my

fault since BFR's are usually dominated by my questions and pleas for current best

practice. The instructors usually enjoy telling you and showing you what they know

 more than anything else so maybe I have side tracked them all over the last 35 years.

I've managed to successfully have the medical examiners keep probing fingers to

themselves every time too so I might be pushing my luck.

 --

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as

 the greatest of dangers to be feared.  To preserve our independence, we must

not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.  If we run into such debts, we

must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts,

 in our labor and in our amusements.  If we can prevent the government from

wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they

will be happy.

               -- Thomas Jefferson

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



[b]

stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:53 pm Post subject: - now Compass Card

I should mention that I don't have a DG.

 Cecil

 On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net (stokesc(at)wildblue.net)> wrote:

 [quote] A compass could be useful when encountering very low visibility conditions.

  

 Cecil

 Kitfox IV 582 1050

  

    

 On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)>

 

On Sun, March 29, 2009 9:34 pm, Noel Loveys wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>



 > I was trying to get at two things...  First of all most compass swings are
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   not done anywhere near a compass rose.


	


I'm maybe forgetting something or just naive but that where I have done them. On two

 the compasses you had a little plastic screw to turn that would set the indicator

perfect for north then south then east then west. You then updated the deviations on

the compass card but they were all zero.



 The other type compass had no such adjuster and you just filled out the deviations at

each 45 deg heading change.



Then since the compass isn't stable and depending on your heading can actually swing

the wrong direction when you start a turn, I have always used a DG as the primary

 heading indicator and set the DG to the compass with any applied deviation.



 	  Quote: 	
		    They are expensive and time

 consuming to do and even when done correctly parallax errors can throw

 everything off.

 
	


I assume you mean they are expensive if you pay an instrument shop to do them in order

to comply with some kind of inane rule. Maybe the compass police are eventually going

to toss me in the clink. I'm just sort of a bad person, I guess. Some laws just don't

 seem to apply to me personally.



Now, I have a vague understanding of parallax error as it applies to a lens but at the

moment am lacking the brain power to extend my limited conceptual familiarization with

parallax to a compass. Please contribute some regular sized words on the subject.

 

 	  Quote: 	
		    There fore corrections are estimated by which way the wind

 was blowing the day the correction card was filled out.


	


Now I am really concerned that I am more than a little uninformed because I cannot

 imagine what wind has to do with recording compass errors on a card. Maybe the wind is

gusty and rocking the airplane and the compass? Or, of course, it could be blowing

magnetic particles that I don't know about. But again, I need some regular sized words

 on this one too - how does wind affect magnetic compass calibration?



 	  Quote: 	
		   The second thing I was getting at is the magnetic compass is the last

 instrument used in IFR and other than to hold a heading isn't used in VFR.

 
	


That must be a matter of flying technique. You don't even bother with a compass when

you have a DG, IFR or VFR. You only need the compass to set the DG.



Of course, this might be a matter of procedure you do on an exam. Been a long time for

 me and it hasn't been an issue on any BFR that I have taken. That too could be my

fault since BFR's are usually dominated by my questions and pleas for current best

practice. The instructors usually enjoy telling you and showing you what they know

 more than anything else so maybe I have side tracked them all over the last 35 years.

I've managed to successfully have the medical examiners keep probing fingers to

themselves every time too so I might be pushing my luck.

 --

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as

 the greatest of dangers to be feared.  To preserve our independence, we must

not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.  If we run into such debts, we

must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts,

 in our labor and in our amusements.  If we can prevent the government from

wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they

will be happy.

               -- Thomas Jefferson

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====



	




 



[b]

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:02 am Post subject: Re: - now Compass Card

Compass swing,  I get thousands of readers finding this on google

http://cfisher.com/compass.htm



Simple

_________________
Realtime Kitfox movies to separate the internet chatter from the truth
http://www.youtube.com/user/kitfoxflyer
Hundreds of Kitfox Movies
Most viewed Kitfox on youtube
Most popular on youtube
Highest rated on youtube

PMorel

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Locust Grove, GA USA

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:42 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

Dave

 I scanned through your article looking for what might be a solution to a compass problem I'm having.

  

   I have two types of compass and will only be installing one of them.  I have a common whiskey compass and a nice vertical card magnetic compass. I really like the vertical compass so I made space in my panel to include the vertical compass which would not only be functional but gives that "DG" look.  I put my panel together with all my instruments on the bench and all the compass points were within tolerance as I rotated the panel around.  (I planned to make final corrections once my panel was installedin the aircraft) 

  

   Now the problem arose when I placed the panel with all the installed instruments in the aircraft and the compass began to swing way out.  I'm talking around 120 degree difference!  After talking to some local pilots and mechanics, I got suggestions from moving the compass to demagnetizing the airframe to changing to the whiskey and mounting it on top of the panel.

  

 Has anyone else encountered such a problem and what did you do to correct it?

  

 Paul Morel

 912 Model IV Speedster

 Locust Grove, GA



 

   From: dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:02:06 AM

Subject: Re: - now Compass Card



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>



Compass swing,  I get thousands of readers finding this on google

http://cfisher.com/compass.htm



Simple



--------

Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

http://www.cfisher.com/

Awesome *New Forum *

http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

Realtime Kitfox movies to  separate  the internet  chatter from the truth  

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236823#236823

[b]http://forums.matronics.cp;                     -Mcs.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution<=============

_________________
Paul Morel
912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA

www.WingsAirPhotos.com

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:27 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

I mounted my vertical card compass above the glare shield/panel, and  

in this location it is not affected by the airframe.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 30, 2009, at 9:41 AM, teresa, paul morel wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Dave

 I scanned through your article looking for what might be a solution  

 to a compass problem I'm having.



   I have two types of compass and will only be installing one of  

 them.  I have a common whiskey compass and a nice vertical card  

 magnetic compass. I really like the vertical compass so I made  

 space in my panel to include the vertical compass which would not  

 only be functional but gives that "DG" look.  I put my panel  

 together with all my instruments on the bench and all the compass  

 points were within tolerance as I rotated the panel around.  (I  

 planned to make final corrections once my panel was installedin the  

 aircraft)



   Now the problem arose when I placed the panel with all the  

 installed instruments in the aircraft and the compass began to  

 swing way out.  I'm talking around 120 degree difference!  After  

 talking to some local pilots and mechanics, I got suggestions from  

 moving the compass to demagnetizing the airframe to changing to the  

 whiskey and mounting it on top of the panel.



 Has anyone else encountered such a problem and what did you do to  

 correct it?



 Paul Morel

 912 Model IV Speedster

 Locust Grove, GA



 From: dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:02:06 AM

 Subject: Re: - now Compass Card



 



 Compass swing,  I get thousands of readers finding this on google

 http://cfisher.com/compass.htm



 Simple



 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 Awesome *New Forum *

 http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

 Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the  

 truth

 http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 36823#236823

 http://forums.matronics.cp;                     -Mcs.com/ 

 contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/ 

 contribution<=============



 ============================================================ _- 

 ============================================================ _- 

 contribution_- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

Paul:



The correct procedure for setting a compass is to turn the plane to Magnetic

North.  Zero the deviation in the compass using either a brass or non

ferrous screwdriver.  Engines should be turning at cruise rpm and all

avionics used in flight should be on for all adjustments/readings..

Turn the plane to magnetic 90 deg. And zero the compass deviation. 

Turn the plane 180 M and remove half the deviation on the NS corrector.

Turn the plane 270M and remove half the deviation on the E-W corrector.

Now you are ready to turn the plane to magnetic north again and start

filling out the compass card.



This is the recognized procedure and using this procedure it is impossible

to get a 000 for North, as most cards show unless your plane is 100% plastic

and you use a rubber band for power.



Did I mention this is expensive??  Never mind I'll mention it again.

Because, today a lot of airports don't even bother to paint a rose any more,

so now you are supposed to also do an external line up of the aircraft with

a calibrated hand compa$$.  You may as well go out with a bucket of white

paint and make a rose.  It would be a lot faster.



The parallax correction I mentioned has to do with the fact the line on the

compass is on the glass several centimetres from the actual compass cage

itself.  From the left seat, lean forward and you will line up a couple of

degrees higher lean back and you are going to read a couple of degrees

lower.  In the old days of airliners ( pre jetliner) the cockpit had a

couple of balls for each seat which folded down from the ceiling.  One set

for the pilot and one set for the co-pilot.  The idea was you had to adjust

your seat so you only saw one ball then your eyes were in the exact

position, up-down and back-forth to correct for parallax on all your

instruments.  I guess a degree or two is a big thing when flying

Trans-Atlantic with no Loran C and no GPS and no VOR.  I'm sure the northern

routes navigated by the stars as a magnetic compass is useless up in the

high arctic.



As for having the compass police come charging down for you... Don't hold

your breath.  I think they have better things to do. And flux gate compasses

on the bigger planes are only set up in alignment with the plane itself.

I'm not even sure if a compass swing is a requirement for the annual on a

homebuilt plane.  It's a bit strange because even the AMOs here (Canadian

equivalent of a FBO) feel it is the most useless waste of time, money and

effort.  As TC ( Transport Canada) inspectors generally come from the

private sectors you can guess their opinions on swings is the same.  I don't

see any reason for things to be any different south of the 49th.  Just don't

cross an FAA inspector the day his wife files for divorce, his dog dies and

he gets a flat tire on his way to work.



The hardest plane to do a swing on is a float plane.  If you do the swing

while the plane is on a dolly you have introduced an error.  If you want to

do it in the water you will need lots of rope because the plane wants to

move ahead with the engine running and it should be running at cruise rpm.

I've done them but I used a map of the lake and adjustments were made very

fast generally setting the magnetic compass from the gyro.   It helps to

have lots of water to work with.  I haven't figured out how to do it in a

tandem plane like a Super Cub...  Cruise rpm would be out of the question





Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:43 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

Before you get into that situation you should do what the crows do... walk.  Seriously, you have a good point.  The question is what accuracy is needed and what accuracy can you use.  If you get in a bit of a pickle a magnetic compass accurate to maybe + or - ten degrees including magnetic deviation, and other compass errors.    

As a VFR pilot I know that things come alive rather fast as I start to lose visual contact with the ground.  I have set up IFR panels and know how everything works....  There’s a lot of difference between the guy who makes a scalpel and the guy who uses it.  As you know trying to navigate while still flying the plane can be, make that is more than a handful!    

Noel  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Stokesberry

 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:45 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: - now Compass Card  

A compass could be useful when encountering very low visibility conditions.  

Cecil  

Kitfox IV 582 1050  

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)> wrote:  

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)>

 On Sun, March 29, 2009 9:34 pm, Noel Loveys wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

 >

 > I was trying to get at two things...  First of all most compass swings are

 > not done anywhere near a compass rose.

 I'm maybe forgetting something or just naive but that where I have done them. On two

 the compasses you had a little plastic screw to turn that would set the indicator

 perfect for north then south then east then west. You then updated the deviations on

 the compass card but they were all zero.

 The other type compass had no such adjuster and you just filled out the deviations at

 each 45 deg heading change.

 Then since the compass isn't stable and depending on your heading can actually swing

 the wrong direction when you start a turn, I have always used a DG as the primary

 heading indicator and set the DG to the compass with any applied deviation.

 >  They are expensive and time

 > consuming to do and even when done correctly parallax errors can throw

 > everything off.

 I assume you mean they are expensive if you pay an instrument shop to do them in order

 to comply with some kind of inane rule. Maybe the compass police are eventually going

 to toss me in the clink. I'm just sort of a bad person, I guess. Some laws just don't

 seem to apply to me personally.

 Now, I have a vague understanding of parallax error as it applies to a lens but at the

 moment am lacking the brain power to extend my limited conceptual familiarization with

 parallax to a compass. Please contribute some regular sized words on the subject.

 >  There fore corrections are estimated by which way the wind

 > was blowing the day the correction card was filled out.

 Now I am really concerned that I am more than a little uninformed because I cannot

 imagine what wind has to do with recording compass errors on a card. Maybe the wind is

 gusty and rocking the airplane and the compass? Or, of course, it could be blowing

 magnetic particles that I don't know about. But again, I need some regular sized words

 on this one too - how does wind affect magnetic compass calibration?

 > The second thing I was getting at is the magnetic compass is the last

 > instrument used in IFR and other than to hold a heading isn't used in VFR.

 That must be a matter of flying technique. You don't even bother with a compass when

 you have a DG, IFR or VFR. You only need the compass to set the DG.

 Of course, this might be a matter of procedure you do on an exam. Been a long time for

 me and it hasn't been an issue on any BFR that I have taken. That too could be my

 fault since BFR's are usually dominated by my questions and pleas for current best

 practice. The instructors usually enjoy telling you and showing you what they know

 more than anything else so maybe I have side tracked them all over the last 35 years.

 I've managed to successfully have the medical examiners keep probing fingers to

 themselves every time too so I might be pushing my luck.

 --

 Paul A. Franz

 Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 Bellevue WA

 425.241.1618 Cell

 I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as

 the greatest of dangers to be feared.  To preserve our independence, we must

 not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.  If we run into such debts, we

 must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts,

 in our labor and in our amusements.  If we can prevent the government from

 wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they

 will be happy.

                -- Thomas Jefferson

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 =====

    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List 	
0 	  Quote: 	

1 	  Quote: 	

2 	  Quote: 	

3 	  Quote: 	

4 	  Quote: 	

5 	  Quote: 	

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9

       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

Not in my ‘Fox!  I do have a compass but primarily use it to hold headings to maintain visual tracks on the ground.  Dead reckoning is fun for the exercise of it but if I decide to deviate t all I really don’t have time to set up another navigation while flying the plane so it goes strictly VFR follow the map stuff.  It was suggested to me I get a set of road maps so I could drop down and read the signs to see where I was...  I don’t fly that low.   

Noel  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Stokesberry

 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:23 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: - now Compass Card  

I should mention that I don't have a DG.  

Cecil  

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net (stokesc(at)wildblue.net)> wrote:    

A compass could be useful when encountering very low visibility conditions.  

Cecil  

Kitfox IV 582 1050  

On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:07 PM, Paul Franz - Merlin GT <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)> wrote:  

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Paul Franz - Merlin GT" <paul(at)eucleides.com (paul(at)eucleides.com)>

 On Sun, March 29, 2009 9:34 pm, Noel Loveys wrote:

 > --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "Noel Loveys" <noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca (noelloveys(at)yahoo.ca)>

 >

 > I was trying to get at two things...  First of all most compass swings are

 > not done anywhere near a compass rose.

 I'm maybe forgetting something or just naive but that where I have done them. On two

 the compasses you had a little plastic screw to turn that would set the indicator

 perfect for north then south then east then west. You then updated the deviations on

 the compass card but they were all zero.

 The other type compass had no such adjuster and you just filled out the deviations at

 each 45 deg heading change.

 Then since the compass isn't stable and depending on your heading can actually swing

 the wrong direction when you start a turn, I have always used a DG as the primary

 heading indicator and set the DG to the compass with any applied deviation.

 >  They are expensive and time

 > consuming to do and even when done correctly parallax errors can throw

 > everything off.

 I assume you mean they are expensive if you pay an instrument shop to do them in order

 to comply with some kind of inane rule. Maybe the compass police are eventually going

 to toss me in the clink. I'm just sort of a bad person, I guess. Some laws just don't

 seem to apply to me personally.

 Now, I have a vague understanding of parallax error as it applies to a lens but at the

 moment am lacking the brain power to extend my limited conceptual familiarization with

 parallax to a compass. Please contribute some regular sized words on the subject.

 >  There fore corrections are estimated by which way the wind

 > was blowing the day the correction card was filled out.

 Now I am really concerned that I am more than a little uninformed because I cannot

 imagine what wind has to do with recording compass errors on a card. Maybe the wind is

 gusty and rocking the airplane and the compass? Or, of course, it could be blowing

 magnetic particles that I don't know about. But again, I need some regular sized words

 on this one too - how does wind affect magnetic compass calibration?

 > The second thing I was getting at is the magnetic compass is the last

 > instrument used in IFR and other than to hold a heading isn't used in VFR.

 That must be a matter of flying technique. You don't even bother with a compass when

 you have a DG, IFR or VFR. You only need the compass to set the DG.

 Of course, this might be a matter of procedure you do on an exam. Been a long time for

 me and it hasn't been an issue on any BFR that I have taken. That too could be my

 fault since BFR's are usually dominated by my questions and pleas for current best

 practice. The instructors usually enjoy telling you and showing you what they know

 more than anything else so maybe I have side tracked them all over the last 35 years.

 I've managed to successfully have the medical examiners keep probing fingers to

 themselves every time too so I might be pushing my luck.

 --

 Paul A. Franz

 Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

 Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

 Bellevue WA

 425.241.1618 Cell

 I place economy among the first and most important virtues, and public debt as

 the greatest of dangers to be feared.  To preserve our independence, we must

 not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.  If we run into such debts, we

 must be taxed in our meat and drink, in our necessities and in our comforts,

 in our labor and in our amusements.  If we can prevent the government from

 wasting the labor of the people, under the pretense of caring for them, they

 will be happy.

                -- Thomas Jefferson

 www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

 ronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 Matt Dralle, List Admin.

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

Ya gotta love that last line..



If your compass doesn't agree with the rose, the rose is probably wrong. 



One of the things with the Kitfox is the rounded cowl tends to make it look

like it is turned when straight and vice versa.

How much accuracy can you use on a magnetic compass at 80 mph?



When we did swings we would do north first then east then south then west.

You can gain minimal accuracy by doing it all again removing half the error

each time but a zero correction in any direction is rare if not impossible.

If you did get a zero correction I doubt it would be in a cardinal

direction.  If you really want more accuracy get a flux gate digital

compass.  Can you actually use more accuracy?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

Your compass is definitely too close to something ferrous in your plane.  I doubt demagnetizing the frame is an option as it’s hard to demagnetize one small area of it.  I would go with an aluminium bracket hung from above the windshield or attached to the glare shield.  The more distance you can keep between the compass and anything magnetic ( the frame) the better.  

   

I don’t think the Vertical card will be any improvement as it is still basically a magnetic compass.    

   

If you can find one of those small digital compasses that may work better.  They tend not to be so affected by ferrous surroundings.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of teresa, paul morel

 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 11:11 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: - now Compass Card  

  

  

       

Dave  

    

I scanned through your article looking for what might be a solution to a compass problem I'm having.  

    

   

    

  I have two types of compass and will only be installing one of them.  I have a common whiskey compass and a nice vertical card magnetic compass. I really like the vertical compass so I made space in my panel to include the vertical compass which would not only be functional but gives that "DG" look.  I put my panel together with all my instruments on the bench and all the compass points were within tolerance as I rotated the panel around.  (I planned to make final corrections once my panel was installedin the aircraft)   

    

   

    

  Now the problem arose when I placed the panel with all the installed instruments in the aircraft and the compass began to swing way out.  I'm talking around 120 degree difference!  After talking to some local pilots and mechanics, I got suggestions from moving the compass to demagnetizing the airframe to changing to the whiskey and mounting it on top of the panel.  

    

   

    

Has anyone else encountered such a problem and what did you do to correct it?  

    

   

    

Paul Morel  

    

912 Model IV Speedster  

    

Locust Grove, GA  

    

         

  

From: dave <dave(at)cfisher.com>

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:02:06 AM

 Subject: Re: - now Compass Card

 

 --> Kitfox-List message posted by: "dave" <dave(at)cfisher.com (dave(at)cfisher.com)>

 

 Compass swing,  I get thousands of readers finding this on google

 http://cfisher.com/compass.htm

 

 Simple

 

 --------

 Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

 http://www.cfisher.com/

 Awesome *New Forum *

 http://rotaxaircraft.com/forum/

 Realtime Kitfox movies to separate  the internet  chatter from the truth  

 http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=kitfoxflyer

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=236823#236823

 

 

 

 

 

 

 http://forums.matronics.cp;                     -Mcs.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution<=============

 

 

   

  

  

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_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

Lynn when you are on the longer trips you have taken do you do a dead

reckoning navigation before leaving and follow the compass exactly or do

y9ou tend to fly the chart?



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

At 06:41 AM 3/30/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Now the problem arose when I placed the panel with all the 

 installed instruments in the aircraft and the compass began to 

 swing way out.  I'm talking around 120 degree difference!



Has anyone else encountered such a problem and what did you do to correct it?


	


         Yes, you have magnetization in the airframe. I mounted my 

compass on the panel between the two fore and aft posts and found I 

could only go in one direction, no matter which way I went! I rented 

a de-magnetizer from Sacramento Sky Ranch (www.sacskyranch.com) and 

demagnetized the posts, the firewall, and everything else I could 

reach and the compass was perfect. You must be careful not to 

demagnetize anything electronic, though, or the alternator. I took 

out my avionics, but left the engine in place and worked only behind 

the firewall.

         On a slightly humorous note I was working behind the panel 

one day and accidently grounded the battery hot to the airframe, 

indeed one of the panel posts. I didn't think anything resulted from 

my little arc-welding adventure until much later when I noticed that 

once again my compass was fixed firmly in place. This time I was able 

to demagnetize the post with a much smaller unit I owned suitable for 

magnetizing and de-magnetizing screwdrivers and such. (Illustrating 

that the frame's magnetization comes from the intense currents 

induced during arc-welding.)

         One more thing. When you swing your compass, make sure you 

use a non-magnetic, (brass or bronze,) screwdriver to adjust your 

compass. Mine was steel and drove me nuts.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

On Mon, March 30, 2009 9:01 am, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The correct procedure for setting a compass is to turn the plane to Magnetic

 North.  Zero the deviation in the compass using either a brass or non

 ferrous screwdriver.  Engines should be turning at cruise rpm and all

 avionics used in flight should be on for all adjustments/readings..

 Turn the plane to magnetic 90 deg. And zero the compass deviation.

 Turn the plane 180 M and remove half the deviation on the NS corrector.

 Turn the plane 270M and remove half the deviation on the E-W corrector.

 Now you are ready to turn the plane to magnetic north again and start

 filling out the compass card.


	


You don't even need a compass rose. Explanation is nicely described in the link that

dave(at)cfisher.com provided:



<http://cfisher.com/compass.htm>



If you have a DG then you don't need any reference lines at all. Further more, if you

are able to adjust the deviation to zero in both the N-S and E-W directions, there

will be no deviation at any other headings.



So, given your proper preparation instructions and carefully heading either north or

south on the compass and setting the DG to this track then turning 180 deg by the DG

and take out half the deviation then repeat going 180 deg again taking out half the

deviation. When there is none to take out, switch to doing it in an E-W direction.

When you have zero deviation in both N-S and E-W there will be no deviation at all in

any heading.



 	  Quote: 	
		   The parallax correction I mentioned has to do with the fact the line on the

 compass is on the glass several centimetres from the actual compass cage

 itself.  From the left seat, lean forward and you will line up a couple of

 degrees higher lean back and you are going to read a couple of degrees

 lower.


	


Ah, thanks. I get it now. I just didn't visualize what parallax you were talking about.



 	  Quote: 	
		   The hardest plane to do a swing on is a float plane.  If you do the swing

 while the plane is on a dolly you have introduced an error.


	


Should be easier than with a plane on land if you have a DG. Get to the middle of a

lake, away from buildings and other possibly magnetic objects might be easier on a

lake. A few people have observed that the compass deviation isn't noticeably different

from idle to cruise power so just moving in a straight line is about all you need to

do.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA

425.241.1618 Cell



Norman Mattoon Thomas (November 20, 1884 to December 19, 1968) was a

leading American socialist, pacifist, and six-time presidential

candidate for the Socialist Party of America. The Socialist Party

candidate for President of the U.S., Norman Thomas, said this in a

1944 speech:



"The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But,

under the name of "liberalism," they will adopt every fragment of

the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist

nation, without knowing how it happened!"



He went on to say: "I no longer need to run as a Presidential

Candidate for the Socialist Party. The Democrat Party has adopted

our platform."



*******



"Barely two months into his Presidency, Obama is wreaking havoc,

crippling the nation, oblivious to consequences and monumentally

arrogant, believing the timbre of his voice and the manipulation of

the media will win public confidence until the socialist utopia he

believes in comes to fruition. Who knows how bad it will be in a

year, let alone four?"

-- columnist Lance Fairchok



"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."



~~Margaret Thatcher~~

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 10:55 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

I've got the chart open, (a length of removable colored tape applied  

along my course) and the GPS on, and I use both. I also like to have  

a Road Atlas, as well as the AOPA Airport Directory. The thing I find  

the most useless is the A/FD...the Airport/Facility Directory, the  

green book that goes belly-up every 56 days. It is the most current  

of the printed data, but it doesn't contain the stuff I need, like  

motels, eateries, points of interest, distance from town, etc. You  

know, stuff you need to know once you're on the ground. Of course, to  

be legal, the FAA requires you to have the green book, too.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:37 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



[quote] 



 Lynn when you are on the longer trips you have taken do you do a dead

 reckoning navigation before leaving and follow the compass exactly  

 or do

 y9ou tend to fly the chart?



 Noel



 --

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: - now Compass Card

I had always heard that you could check a water tower for the name of  

a city, but in reality they paint the name on the underside of the  

tower...the ball-shaped ones....and you have to be a ways away or  

quite low to read them. It's best to have a pretty good idea where  

you are on the chart/map so you have some idea of what the name on  

the tower should say.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:17 PM, Noel Loveys wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Not in my ‘Fox!  I do have a compass but primarily use it to hold  

 headings to maintain visual tracks on the ground.  Dead reckoning  

 is fun for the exercise of it but if I decide to deviate t all I  

 really don’t have time to set up another navigation while flying  

 the plane so it goes strictly VFR follow the map stuff.  It was  

 suggested to me I get a set of road maps so I could drop down and  

 read the signs to see where I was...  I don’t fly that low.



 Noel



 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox- 

 list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Stokesberry

 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:23 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: - now Compass Card



 I should mention that I don't have a DG.



 Cecil



 On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Cecil Stokesberry  

 <stokesc(at)wildblue.net> wrote:



 A compass could be useful when encountering very low visibility  

 conditions.



 Cecil

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

PMorel

Joined: 09 Jul 2007
Posts: 62
Location: Locust Grove, GA USA

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: - now Compass Card

Guy

 I went to www.sacskyranch.com and researched degaussing the aircraft.  I made the "magnetic field reader" from the instructions with a paper clip and thread and found it to work as indicated.  I found magnetism in my door post and frame.  It certainly is magnetic enough to throw the compass way off.  I plan to use a bulk erase unit tomorrow in this area of the cabin to see if I can't correct my problem and let everyone know if this is an easy fix or not.  Luckily the pane is not installed in the cabin yet and the degaussing won't affect anything.

 Paul 



 

   From: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:06:38 PM

Subject: Re: Re: - now Compass Card



--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com (bnn(at)nethere.com)>



At 06:41 AM 3/30/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    Now the problem arose when I placed the panel with all the installed instruments in the aircraft and the compass began to swing way out.  I'm talking around 120 degree difference!

 

 Has anyone else encountered such a problem and what did you do to correct it?


	


        Yes, you have magnetization in the airframe. I mounted my compass on the panel  between the two fore and aft posts and found I could only go in one direction, no matter which way I went! I rented a de-magnetizer from Sacramento Sky Ranch (www.sacskyranch.com) and demagnetized the posts, the firewall, and everything else I could reach and the compass was perfect. You must be careful not to demagnetize anything electronic, though, or the alternator. I took out my avionics, but left the engine in place and worked only behind the firewall.

        On a slightly humorous note I was working behind the panel one day and accidently grounded the battery hot to the airframe, indeed one of the panel posts. I didn't think anything resulted from my little arc-welding adventure until much later when I noticed that once again my compass was fixed firmly in place. This time I was able to demagnetize the post with a much smaller unit I owned suitable for magnetizing and  de-magnetizing screwdrivers and such. (Illustrating that the frame's magnetization comes from the intense currents induced during arc-welding.)

        One more thing. When you swing your compass, make sure you use a non-magnetic, (brass or bronze,) screwdriver to adjust your compass. Mine was steel and drove me nuts.

Guy Buchanan

San http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List" ="http://forums.matronics.com/" target=_blank>http://forums.matronics.cp;                     -Mcs.com/contribution" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution<=============

_________________
Paul Morel
912 Speedster
Locust Grove, GA

www.WingsAirPhotos.com

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:58 pm Post subject: - now Compass Card

Have you heard of a magnetic tape degausser? I used to use one when I  

worked in a sound studio, and you could erase a whole sound tape in  

just a few seconds. You turn the unit on with a button, and then  

sweep the unit over the magnetized area, slowly pulling the unit  

further and further away from the affected area, before shutting the  

unit off. This might work for such an application as degaussing your  

plane...in sections of course. Maybe that's what you're referring to  

as a bulk eraser.

Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 622.1 hrs

Sensenich 62x46

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

On Mar 30, 2009, at 7:18 PM, teresa, paul morel wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Guy

 I went to www.sacskyranch.com and researched degaussing the  

 aircraft.  I made the "magnetic field reader" from the instructions  

 with a paper clip and thread and found it to work as indicated.  I  

 found magnetism in my door post and frame.  It certainly is  

 magnetic enough to throw the compass way off.  I plan to use a bulk  

 erase unit tomorrow in this area of the cabin to see if I can't  

 correct my problem and let everyone know if this is an easy fix or  

 not.  Luckily the pane is not installed in the cabin yet and the  

 degaussing won't affect anything.

 Paul

 From: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 12:06:38 PM

 Subject: Re: Re: - now Compass Card

 At 06:41 AM 3/30/2009, you wrote:

 >  Now the problem arose when I placed the panel with all the  

 installed instruments in the aircraft and the compass began to  

 swing way out.  I'm talking around 120 degree difference!

 >

 > Has anyone else encountered such a problem and what did you do to  

 correct it?

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: - now Compass Card

Two minor problems with that.



One: The sun is continually moving across the sky not in a straight line but

in and arc and by the time you are ready to turn 90 deg the sun has moved.

Even on Jun 21, the summer solstice, you really should make allowances for

sun movement between movements of the plane.  The shadows are good enough

for government work...  sometimes.



Two:  Only at high solar noon is the sun in the northern hemisphere is the

sun due south so shadows fall due north true.  That is the only time you

can, without navigational charts, a sextant and an accurate clock determine

true north and then decipher the direction of magnetic north.  While I agree

Dave's method will give a workable swing I wouldn't use it to sign off any

certified aircraft.  It all goes back to the question of how much accuracy

do you need?  I guess that is why you see so many planes around with a 0

correction for north.  I've done many swings and to date I have never seen

one come out with a 0 north correction.  I think once I saw a 0 correction

for 135 M / 315M.  And amazingly I think one direction there was off less

than a degree.



Having said that I think I would trust a swing that Dave would do on his own

land as he has been there long enough to estimate magnetic north within a

degree or two.  I know on my land i know from just about every part of the

lot where true north is...  Magnetic north is (around) 22 degrees less.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:03 pm Post subject: - now Compass Card

No GPS (I generally leave it in the car) and a pencil line with a 2H on the

VNC. I usually mark the magnetic headings I'll use on the chart, (VFR

Navigation Chart)  but I fly by the track I visualize on the ground.  I find

when flying a compass bearing I fixate too much on the compass and not

enough outside the plane.  If I visualize a track on the ground then I spend

a lot more time actually flying the plane as opposed to having the plane fly

me... If you know what I mean.  I also spend a lot more time looking for

other traffic and enjoying the flight.



One of the things I have noticed is the Canadian VNC show water but not

islands in the ponds.  Without the islands marked a lot of the ponds look

completely different when flying over them.  Road maps for some reason seem

to have the islands showing so it is easier to locate ponds by shape with

the islands in them.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

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