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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:53 am Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

This subject has been broached before but I thought it might be worth noting again. Some Kolbers have been searching for a transparent gascolator with drain valve. I found one which you can see here.



http://www.rotaxparts.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=690



I know nothing about it but what is said in the ad.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:17 am Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Racor has been around for a long time.  Back in the early '70's, the company I worked for had bought a bunch of VW Rabbit diesels, and they were equiped with these to get the water out.  Worked very well with diesel.

    The last company I worked for had trouble with water in the diesel, and we acquired what we referred to as "plastic tampons".  They were about an inch in diameter and 6 inches long, and had an exterior plastic cage with a mesh screen inside.  In that was some dessicant crystals that would expand as water was absorbed.  When the cage was full, we would replace.  I think they could be dried, but I'd be real careful with gas.  These had a string to tie them to the gas cap.  I believe they were inexpensive, and I know they worked great- especially on yard equipment that was not fueled very often.  Seems like these would be ideal for aircraft.

  

                                               Bill Sullivan

                                               Windsor Locks, ct.

 [quote][b]

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

 	  williamtsullivan(at)att.n wrote: 	
		  < < <SNIP> > > Seems like these would be ideal for aircraft.

  

 Bill Sullivan

 Windsor Locks, ct.

 	




Some caution......  Might be a similar issue as the "Mr Funnel" filters for those aircraft using pre-mix.  (Over time loses the ability to trap water out of fuel.)

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

George- Not the same as the MR funnel.  This catridge has dessicant crystals in it- kind of very large off-white salt looking.  They expand until they fill the tube, and then you replace.  Very easy to check the status- it starts out as 1/4 full, and they expand to fill it.  You just tie off the string and drop it in.  Worked great, but I have no idea of the supplier or the cost.  I seem to remember they were cheap.  Maybe available through truck stops, or we might have got them from Jack Young and Co. in Allston, Mass.  Young was our supplier.

  

                                                      Bill Sullivan

                                                      Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

George Alexander

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Location: SW Florida

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

 	  williamtsullivan(at)att.n wrote: 	
		  George- Not the same as the MR funnel.  This catridge has dessicant crystals in it- kind of very large off-white salt looking.  < < <SNIP> > >

	




Bill:

Didn't mean to imply that it was like a Mr. Funnel from a content/chemistry standpoint.... the issue that should be considered is whether or not a fuel/oil mix going through the device affects its ability to accomplish the design purpose (separate/trap/filter the water).  The quick scan that I did on the info doesn't mention fuel/oil mix..... just fuel.

That's all.  Just a thought.  May not even be worth $.02!

_________________
George Alexander
FS II R503
E-LSA N709FS
http://www.oh2fly.net

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Goerge- From what I have seen, it ought to work.  The unit just sits on the bottom of the tank, absorbing water.  If it works in diesel, gas/oil shouldnb't be a problem.  I know it works with a diesel stand-pipe, so a top feed tank won't be bothered.  For a bottom feed, it wouldn't block it either.  The only questions that come to mind are if it would work with gas; or if it moves around enough to hit and break a stand-pipe in aircraft service.  Maybe John H.- or somebody else who has been around a farm- has more knowledge than I do.  I can say that the units worked as advertised, could be visually inspected, and did not bother the fuel feeds on any of the trucks or farm tractors.  This is not an in-line filter, it just lays on the bottom of the tank.

   If it looks interesting to anyone, I can call my old employer and see if they remember the source and cost.

  

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

At 01:53 PM 4/1/2009, Thom Riddle wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



This subject has been broached before but I thought it might be worth 

noting again. Some Kolbers have been searching for a transparent 

gascolator with drain valve. I found one which you can see here.



http://www.rotaxparts.net/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=690


	


Not a small (or inexpensive) thing.  A bit large for my UltraStar.



A subject of current personal interest to me, since it was my friends who 

were badly injured in the MKIII crash last fall due to water in the fuel 

(the plane had no sump or gascolator).  It just so happens that I'm making 

a simple small gascolator right now, with a clear bowl, drain valve, two 

inlets, and no filter (I have a separate fuel filter in the line).  Once 

it's done I'll post more information on it.



-Dana

--

  When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced...

Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.

-- Cherokee saying

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

The best way to remove water from an aircraft fuel system is a gascolator.  General aviation aircraft have been flying for better than 70 years using gascolators.  I would not be anxious to try some limited use chemical way of removing water from my Kolb.   I just drain the gascolator at the low point of my fuel system before each flight to check for water, as aviators have been successfully doing for decades.  I most definitely would not put something in the fuel system line that  could become clogged.   There is no need for the gascolator to  be clear either, I see the gas when it drains out, and see what comes out, again the same as a Cessna and most certified airplanes.  You can get a gascolator at Aircraft Spruce for around 70 bucks.



http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/acsgascolator.php



Make sure you order the Auto Gas compatible gasket for it if you buy it, the one that comes installed is for Avgas only and will swell with auto fuel.  Thats an extra 5 bucks....



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Dana- This gadget we have been discussing only weighs about 2 ounces, empty and dry.  Full (of water) it probably has absorbed maybe 6 ounces.

   How are your friends doing?

  

                                                     Bill Sullivan

                                                     Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:19 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

At 05:58 PM 4/1/2009, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Dana- This gadget we have been discussing only weighs about 2 ounces, 

empty and dry.  Full (of water) it probably has absorbed maybe 6 ounces.

   How are your friends doing?


	


They're OK... Bob's walking with a cane but still needs some surgery, I 

think, and Dave's pretty much healed.



-Dana

--

  When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced...

Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice.

-- Cherokee saying

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:33 am Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

I agree that a gascolator is a very valuable component of the fuel system, but I am thinking of the water held in the fuel by the alcohol in E-10.  I was wondering if a dessicant cartridge could extract the water from the alcohol before it reached the gascolator.  Anyone know enough chemistry to determine how much water could be absorbed by E-10 before it reaches a saturation point?  The catridge (if it works on E-10) would be a lightweight safety backup for a gascolator, plus has the advantage of no plumbing, visual checking for water, or a lightweight alternative for 103 weight watchers.

  

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

At 07:27 AM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     I agree that a gascolator is a very valuable component of the fuel 

 system, but I am thinking of the water held in the fuel by the alcohol in 

 E-10.  I was wondering if a dessicant cartridge could extract the water 

 from the alcohol before it reached the gascolator.  Anyone know enough 

 chemistry to determine how much water could be absorbed by E-10 before it 

 reaches a saturation point?  The catridge (if it works on E-10) would be 

 a lightweight safety backup for a gascolator, plus has the advantage of 

 no plumbing, visual checking for water, or a lightweight alternative for 

 103 weight watchers.


	


If the water is held in solution by the ethanol it's not a major problem; 

it's when there's too much, or it separates out, that you have a problem 

with engine noise (or rather, the lack of it).  I forget the exact amount 

that's soluble but google "olive jar test for ethanol"; it's how you test 

for ethanol (by adding water to a fuel sample until no more water dissolves).



I'd be leery of dropping a dessicant cartridge in my fuel tank; somebody 

said they're made for diesel fuel, but what about gasoline?  And even if 

they're OK with gasoline, what about ethanol or other additives?



-Dana

--

  People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer 

to pick on rich women than biker gangs.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 9:51 am Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 04:27:25 -0700 (PDT)

From: william sullivan <williamtsullivan(at)att.net>

 	  Quote: 	
		  ..................

The cartridge (if it works on E-10) would be a lightweight safety backup for 

a gascolator, plus has the advantage of no plumbing, visual checking for 

water, or a lightweight alternative for 103 weight watchers.

 	  Quote: 	

Bill,

The best back up is to ensure no water gets into the tank.  When fuel is low 

in the five gallon FireFly tank, it is very easy to look in through the bung 

to see if there is water on the tank bottom.  Also, since I refuel with 2.5 

gallon plastic cans, it is very easy to do the same with them.  When 

refueling, I never pour out the last drop into the FireFly tank.  This 

captures all water and debris in the bottom of the refueling cans.  I remove 

the FireFly tank in the Spring and purge out the accumulated water and 

debris.  It is rare to get more than a dimes volume of water from the tank.  

I have never found any water in the Bing float bowl.

Normally I do not purge the refilling cans, as I use the remaining fuel as 

oil slosh fuel before refilling the cans.  But when I can see some build up, 

I will purge the refilling cans too.  One must be careful when refueling 

from other than your own cans, etc.

Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:01 am Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Dana- That is why I was asking.  I don't know about compatability with a gas/oil mix.  I am wondering about the supposed tendabcy of E-10 to pick up and suspend quantities of water from, say, high humidity.  Naturally, the bulk of raw water would be easy to get out of straight mo-gas with an MR filter or gascolator, but what about E-10 that already has absorbed an amount of water.  Would the alcohol permit the water to go through the MR?  Would a dessicant draw the water from the alcohol/ water mix?  Curiosity on my part, now that straight mo-gas is not available around here any more.

  

                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:33 am Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Me too.  I don't want any dessicant  or magic beads or whatever in my  

gas tanks.  Things that may dissolve or fall apart.

A gascolator is great although I run only a throwaway filter, which  

DOES get thrown away every spring.

Old gas or leftovers from the bottom of the refueling tank go into  

lawnmowers and tractors.

In the spring I peek into the tanks for debris, bugs, etc.  With my  

dip tubes there would have to be a lot of

water/crap in there before anything got picked up.  So far no problems.

Once upon a time I bought an airplane that had been parked outside  

and flew it away in blissful ignorance.

I had emptied the glass gascolator on preflight and figured that was  

good enuff.

I flew it from Delaware, put it down in a windstorm halfway to my  

southern Maryland destination,

continued a few days later with no mechanical problems from a very  

tired, worn out old airplane.

The next evening, after work, I had the cowling off and happened to  

look at that glass bowl again.

Full of water.  The gas (and whatever else)  had been skimming right  

over the top.  Old airplane  never missed a beat.

I'm grateful.

BB

do not archive

On 3, Apr 2009, at 1:17 PM, Dana Hague wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 At 07:27 AM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote:

>   I agree that a gascolator is a very valuable component of the  

> fuel system, but I am thinking of the water held in the fuel by  

> the alcohol in E-10.  I was wondering if a desiccant cartridge  

> could extract the water from the alcohol before it reached the  

> gascolator.  Anyone know enough chemistry to determine how much  

> water could be absorbed by E-10 before it reaches a saturation  

> point?  The catridge (if it works on E-10) would be a lightweight  

> safety backup for a gascolator, plus has the advantage of no  

> plumbing, visual checking for water, or a lightweight alternative  

> for 103 weight watchers.

 If the water is held in solution by the ethanol it's not a major  

 problem; it's when there's too much, or it separates out, that you  

 have a problem with engine noise (or rather, the lack of it).  I  

 forget the exact amount that's soluble but google "olive jar test  

 for ethanol"; it's how you test for ethanol (by adding water to a  

 fuel sample until no more water dissolves).

 I'd be leery of dropping a desiccant cartridge in my fuel tank;  

 somebody said they're made for diesel fuel, but what about  

 gasoline?  And even if they're OK with gasoline, what about ethanol  

 or other additives?

 -Dana

 --

  People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's  

 safer to pick on rich women than biker gangs.

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

At 02:00 PM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  I am wondering about the supposed tendabcy of E-10 to pick up and suspend 

quantities of water from, say, high humidity.  Naturally, the bulk of raw 

water would be easy to get out of straight mo-gas with an MR filter or 

gascolator, but what about E-10 that already has absorbed an amount of 

water.  Would the alcohol permit the water to go through the MR?


	


Yes.  There is a difference between a suspension and a 

solution.  Suspension is what you have when you shake the oil and vinegar 

for your salad (vinegar being basically water).  It mixes, sort of, but the 

water is still in discrete blobs and but settles back out 

immediately.  That's what a Mr Funnel strains out.



A solution is different, like stirring sugar into your tea.  It dissolves 

(up to a point) and is no longer identifiable as separate clumps... and 

can't be strained out.



Mix water into gas containing ethanol, and some will go into solution, up 

to the saturation limit.  A Mr Funnel won't take it out (and I don't 

believe dessicant would either, but I could be wrong).  Add more and it 

settles to the bottom (or suspension if you shake it).  The Mr Funnel will 

take only that part of it out.



-Dana

--

  Politicians are those who deal with the problems which would not exist if 

they didn't exist.

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Dana- Now the question is whether it is possible to get some E-10 that for some reason has already absorbed say, about 95% of the water it is capable of soaking up.  If this will go through an MR funnel, will the gascolator remove it?  Also, how much performance would be lost with the combination of 10% alcohol, plus all the water?  I am just doing a little intellectual speculation here, I don't have anything specific in mind.  Or, possibly find a little insurance against water absorption in gas (E-10) stored long term in aircraft or in reserve cans.  I understand long term without Sta-Bil is around 30 days, and it does seem to lose it's volitility in power equipment stored over a season- lawn mowers, etc.

  

                                                   Bill Sullivan

                                                   Windsor Locks, Ct.

 [quote][b]

Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

OK, here's my new transparent gascolator.  As I've said, I don't want a large heavy expensive aircraft gascolator for my ultralight, don't want a cheap glass tractor gascolator with no drain, either, but I do want to be able to see what's inside... so I made my own (see attached picture).



Basically, it's a 3" x 1.75" x 1" polycarbonate block with nylon fittings and a Saf-Air drain valve.  No filter, since I also have an inline filter.  It's not on the plane yet, but it's sitting on my workbench filled with gas/oil mix as a final chemical compatibility check.



-Dana

fuel strainer.jpg

Description:

Homemade Gascolator

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 3:56 pm Post subject: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

At 07:37 PM 4/3/2009, william sullivan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		     Dana- Now the question is whether it is possible to get some E-10 that 

 for some reason has already absorbed say, about 95% of the water it is 

 capable of soaking up.  If this will go through an MR funnel, will the 

 gascolator remove it?


	


No, as I said if it's in solution the Mr Funnel won't take it out, and it 

won't settle out in the gascolator either, unless the temperature drops 

(the amount that will stay in solution varies with temperature).



 	  Quote: 	
		     Also, how much performance would be lost with the combination of 10% 

 alcohol, plus all the water?  I am just doing a little intellectual 

 speculation here, I don't have anything specific in mind.  Or, possibly 

 find a little insurance against water absorption in gas (E-10) stored 

 long term in aircraft or in reserve cans.  I understand long term without 

 Sta-Bil is around 30 days, and it does seem to lose it's volitility in 

 power equipment stored over a season- lawn mowers, etc.


	


I don't know how much performance you'd lose, but I doubt it's that 

much.  Re old gas, I've used old (6 months +) gas in my PPG and seen no 

performance difference.  This only applies to gas in SEALED containers, 

though.  My rule is, it the gas doesn't smell bad, it's OK (though I'll be 

draining and refilling my Kolb tanks after the winter,because the tanks 

AREN'T sealed (Vented).



-Dana

--

  Q: Why is it that New Jersey got all the toxic waste dumps and California 

got all the lawyers?

A: New Jersey had first choice.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Transparent gascolator with drain valve

Dana



That is quite a nice rendering of your gascolator, what program did you use to make that picture ?   That should be great, given that you check your plastic tanks anyways, you will probably never get more than a trace of water in your system.   The biggest problem is, most f us don't have the materials and ability to make a gascolator, I suppose I could build one, but it would take so much time and effort, probably days, that I am better off to spend the 80 bucks.  The one from Aircraft Spruce weights only about 8 ounces, and not so big that it would look out of place on an ultralight.  



The important thing is that we have a gascolator.  As in the case of the outside airplane, the gascolator saved a failed engine by keeping a bunch of water rather then sending it to the carbs.  A gascolator is also useful for getting any small solid debris out finds its way into the lines.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

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