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fuel tank grounding

 
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icubob(at)gmail.com
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:36 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

hi all,
 a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires and the owner of an antique certified aircraft from a nearby hangar stopped by. they then went to that aircraft and checked and NO GROUND. in the past 2 yrs. i have seen a plane at my airport on fire because of static at the fuel pump. check your grounds!
 bob noffs
[quote][b]


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JetPilot



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:53 am    Post subject: Re: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
hi all,
�a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires


On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?

Mike


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:13 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered a
1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck, ran it
back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the rear spar
mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying


On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote:

Quote:

icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
> hi all,
> �a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some
> testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings
> had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a
> tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires
On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the
grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?

Mike

--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S


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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918




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Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Guy Buchanan



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:07 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
make an effective ground.

Mike,
Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to
ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring
clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to
the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats having
a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing to bet
99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is the
first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in a
Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. Wink
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting


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Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.
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clint_bazzill(at)hotmail.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:20 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

My personnel opinion on aircraft grounding is this:
 
You ground the aircraft at exhaust before fueling C
 
You touch the gas cap to remove it C if there is any charge left C its gone.
 
I think all this is over kill C or talking points.
 
Clint
 
Quote:
Date: Mon C 13 Apr 2009 10:52:19 -0700
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
From: bnn(at)nethere.com
Subject: Re: Re: fuel tank grounding

--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>

At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009 C you wrote:
>On my Kitfox C I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses C so
>grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything C it
>would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
>make an effective ground.

Mike C
Bob Ducar C the early builder of my plane C neglected to
ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring
clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to
the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain C but beats having
a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing to bet
99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks C (Lynn's is the
first I've heard of C) and I've never heard of a filling fire in a
Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. Wink


Guy Buchanan
San Diego C CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting <======================
&gt==================

[quote]


Quote:
[b]


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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:34 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

I came up with the idea of running a strap from my filler neck to the
airframe after reading a discussion here on the list. I got a lot of
my (sometimes hair-brained) ideas as a result of reading here early
on. Of course, if someone had said that a heavy plane would handle
better, I'd probably put concrete in the tires...what do I know? : )
Speaking of a fuel-filling fire, every time I fuel up, I'm always
thinking of what I'd do "just if....." I've got a mental picture of
jumping off the stool, grabbing the extinguisher, and heroically
putting out the fire.....at least that's the mental picture. In all
probability, the 6 o'clock news would probably show a screaming,
crying, moron running away from the scene with his hair (what's left
anyway) on fire.

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive

On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:

Quote:


At 08:53 AM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to
> make an effective ground.

Mike,
Bob Ducar, the early builder of my plane, neglected to
ground the filler necks. I therefore use a long wire with spring
clamps attached to either end to manually ground my filler neck to
the airframe whenever I fill. It's a bit of a pain, but beats
having a fire. I doubt there's really a problem because I'm willing
to bet 99% of Kitfoxes don't have grounded filler necks, (Lynn's is
the first I've heard of,) and I've never heard of a filling fire in
a Kitfox. I do any anyway as a token of affection. Wink
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting




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N369LM
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:54 pm    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

Lynn,

I really like what you did, but since my Fox is already covered, I just take the ground wire from the pump station and clip it to the metal filler. All we can protect is an arcing across the tank inlet anyway. Won't that work?

Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL



On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
Quote:
I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered a 1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck, ran it back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the rear spar mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape.
<100_1289.jpg><100_1286.jpg>

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying


On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote:

Quote:
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>
icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
hi all,
Quote:
�a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires


On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?

Mike

--------
&quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S


Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=238918#238918




= [quote][b]


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Float Flyr



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:21 pm    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

What to do in the event of a filling fire?? I guess it all depends on how
much gas is in the plane. With only a little gas in the tanks I would think
there would be an explosion. (No more worries) If the tanks were full you
would have a fire that should be able to be put out by simply covering the
filler with the gas cap. No I don't want to try that. Best idea is to have
the extinguisher handy so you won't have to get down to get it.

Noel

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Kitfox III-A
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Tom Jones



Joined: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 752
Location: Ellensburg, WA

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

I plan to njust get away from any aircraft that is on fire with no people involved.

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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:01 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

I would think so, but I'm the first guy to throw hands in the air and
surrender when it comes to electrics. I'd be absolutely certain that
grounding at the neck would be the best of all worlds, though.

Wait just a minute......maybe if there was a charge built up on the
plane, and you attach a ground to the neck, will an arc jump to the
neck? And if you've got the cap off...can't see how you'd clamp onto
it if the cap WASN'T off.....BOOM?

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying


On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:

Quote:
Lynn,

I really like what you did, but since my Fox is already covered, I
just take the ground wire from the pump station and clip it to the
metal filler. All we can protect is an arcing across the tank
inlet anyway. Won't that work?

Rick Weiss
N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
SkyStar S/N 1
Port Orange, FL


On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:

> I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered
> a 1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck,
> ran it back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the
> rear spar mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape.
> <100_1289.jpg><100_1286.jpg>
>
> Lynn Matteson
> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
> Sensenich 62x46
> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
> Status: flying
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote:
>
>>
>> <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>
>>
>>
>> icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>> hi all,
>>> �a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some
>>> testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings
>>> had prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to
>>> a tank. he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires
>>
>>
>> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
>> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything,
>> it would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank
>> to make an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on
>> the grounding setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> --------
>> &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast
>> as you could have !!!
>>
>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 38918#238918
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:35 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

I'm good at electrics, I are a engineer. According to some published
regulations:

"All aircraft shall be fueled and defueled in accordance with the bonding
ground procedures
outlined in the applicable fire codes including NFPA 407 2-3.4. In general,
all fueling
equipment and aircraft shall be electrically bonded and grounded prior to
and during fueling
and defueling activities. All bonding connections shall be maintained until
final completion
of the fueling or defueling operation. Failure to bond correctly can easily
lead to fire and
explosion. It is incumbent on all fueling operators to be trained on proper
procedures and to
perform bonding operations correctly."

So if a fueling vehicle bonds to a ground point on your aircraft it would
behoove you to make sure any metal at the filling inlet(s) are also grounded
to that point. Otherwise KA-BOOM! (maybe). All-metal aircraft are pretty
safe, all-wood and fabric and fibreglass tanks are fairly safe, fabric with
metal spars and metal tanks etc need careful grounding.

Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade prop
Wrightsville Pa

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:05 am    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

Uh, Lynn, wouldn't just the act of taking off the cap with your bare hands
release any built up charge at the tank? Then again, whaddoIknow. This
whole thing seems way over blown to me.
Deke Morisse
Mikado Michigan
S5/Subaru/CAP 402+ TT
"The aim of an argument or discussion should not be victory, but progress."
- Joseph Joubert
do not archive

Quote:

I would think so, but I'm the first guy to throw hands in the air and
surrender when it comes to electrics. I'd be absolutely certain that
grounding at the neck would be the best of all worlds, though.

Wait just a minute......maybe if there was a charge built up on the
plane, and you attach a ground to the neck, will an arc jump to the neck?
And if you've got the cap off...can't see how you'd clamp onto it if the
cap WASN'T off.....BOOM?

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying


On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Weiss Richard wrote:

> Lynn,
>
> I really like what you did, but since my Fox is already covered, I just
> take the ground wire from the pump station and clip it to the metal
> filler. All we can protect is an arcing across the tank inlet anyway.
> Won't that work?
>
> Rick Weiss
> N39RW Series V Speedster, 912ULS
> SkyStar S/N 1
> Port Orange, FL
>
>
> On Apr 13, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Lynn Matteson wrote:
>
>> I can offer what I did on my plane during the building. I soldered a
>> 1/4" wide tinned and braided copper strap to the filler neck, ran it
>> back and across to the rear spar, and attached it to the rear spar
>> mounting bolt. I covered the strap with finishing tape.
>> <100_1289.jpg><100_1286.jpg>
>>
>> Lynn Matteson
>> Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
>> Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
>> Sensenich 62x46
>> Electroair direct-fire ignition system
>> Status: flying
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 13, 2009, at 11:53 AM, JetPilot wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> icubob(at)gmail.com wrote:
>>>> hi all,
>>>> �a friend and i have been talking about grounding tanks. some
>>>> testing had showed on his plane the anodized coating of fittings had
>>>> prevented the metal fuel lines from completing the ground to a tank.
>>>> he fitted all his tanks with grounding wires
>>>
>>>
>>> On my Kitfox, I have fiberglass tanks with rubber fuel hoses, so
>>> grounding the outside of the tank itself would not do anything, it
>>> would take a wire or piece of metal going into the fuel tank to make
>>> an effective ground. Can you elaborate a little more on the grounding
>>> setup you are proposing for Kitfoxes ?
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> --------
>>> &quot;NO FEAR&quot; - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
>>> you could have !!!
>>>
>>> Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 38918#238918
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> www.matronics.com/contribution _-
> ============================================================




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Lynn Matteson



Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

"Blown" is the operative word here.....hoping we don't hear it. : )

Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 628.1 hrs
Sensenich 62x46
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Status: flying
do not archive

On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:52 PM, fox5flyer wrote:

Quote:

<fox5flyer(at)idealwifi.net>

Uh, Lynn, wouldn't just the act of taking off the cap with your
bare hands release any built up charge at the tank? Then again,
whaddoIknow. This whole thing seems way over blown to me.
Deke Morisse


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Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM
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Guy Buchanan



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 3:15 pm    Post subject: fuel tank grounding Reply with quote

At 05:17 PM 4/13/2009, you wrote:
Quote:
If the tanks were full you
would have a fire that should be able to be put out by simply covering the
filler with the gas cap.

I once watched a guy do this with a burning can of white gas. He was
"encouraging" a camp fire and of course the fire climbed the gas to
the can. With the whole top of the can lit he casually stood there
and screwed the top back on, putting the fire out. Brave, drunk, or
stupid, (Or possibly all three!) it worked.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 300 hrs. and counting

Do not archive


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