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What did ZBAG do?

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pchap(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: What did ZBAG do?

There's a lot of talk about how ZBAG might have contributed to the crisis.



Does anyone here know what exactly ZBAG did in relation to the NTSB?



Did the NTSB approach ZBAG on its own, or after ZBAG asked questions 

about crash details, or did ZBAG offer advice? Or how much "offering 

opinions and suggestions" becomes "undue lobbying"?



Then we get into the issue of whether it is right to bring up issues, 

or stay mum because the government agency might go off an do something rash?

Peter Chapman

Toronto, ON

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: What did ZBAG do? Maybe we will find out.

I don't know exactly what ZBAG did but the Freedom of Information Act request has been received by the NTSB and they called me to confirm they have received. Since this is the government we are talking about I'm sure it will take a while probably a month to get the information. When I get it you can be assured that the Zenith builder community will have full access to it.



For the record here is the specific wording I used in my request.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I would like to request any information that went into the decision to

issue (Safety Recommendation A-09-30{urgent}through A-09-37 and

A-09-38 through A-09-40) that came from the organization refereed to

as ZBAG or Zenith Builders Analysis Group or any individual believed

by the NTSB to be associated with ZBAG. 	


 	  pchap(at)primus.ca wrote: 	
		  There's a lot of talk about how ZBAG might have contributed to the crisis.



Does anyone here know what exactly ZBAG did in relation to the NTSB?



Did the NTSB approach ZBAG on its own, or after ZBAG asked questions 

about crash details, or did ZBAG offer advice? Or how much "offering 

opinions and suggestions" becomes "undue lobbying"?



Then we get into the issue of whether it is right to bring up issues, 

or stay mum because the government agency might go off an do something rash?

Peter Chapman

Toronto, ON

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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: What did ZBAG do?

Nobody knows for sure that ZBAG had major role in this, it looks like they 

might have. Someone here made the accusation, after that it became a 

supposed fact. Kind of interesting to watch the folks angry about people 

looking at some evidence and leaping to a conclusion turning around and 

doing the same thing. What's the word for that again???



It sucks, no question, hope it's resolved quickly.



---

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PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: What did ZBAG do?

Since the focus is on flutter and unbalanced ailerons, a quick design of aileron balancers from Chris Heintz himself would be a way for Zenith - and it's customers - to get out from under this.



I sure wish Chris Heintz would say something authoritative on this whole thing.  



- Pat

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Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: What did ZBAG do?

 	  d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico wrote: 	
		  Someone here made the accusation, after that it became a supposed fact..



--- 	




ZBAG data is quoted in the NTSB document. I sort of doubt NTSB guys in black camo broke into the ZBAG members and engineers homes and offices and stole the info.

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_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

d.goddard(at)ns.sympatico
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:12 pm Post subject: What did ZBAG do?

I understand.  Is that level of evidence all the proof we need to reach a 

valid conclusion ?



Some Zenith 601XLs have experienced inflight failures, should I then reach a 

concrete conclusion based solely on that evidence also?



I haven't seen much in the way of proof of anything on either side here. I 

see some incidents and a little possible evidence of cause on both cases.

Many people have suggested calming down and waiting it out. I'm hopeful that 

Zenith will respond to clear this up quickly.



---

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pchap(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:23 pm Post subject: What did ZBAG do?

At 16:33 17-04-09, you wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  ZBAG data is quoted in the NTSB document. I sort of doubt NTSB guys 

in black camo broke into the ZBAG members and engineers homes and 

offices and stole the info.


	




I still don't have much knowledge of the "what did ZBAG do" situation.

But it may help to know these things that I've learned:



- The ZBAG charter or mission statement does allow for them to 

release reports to the NTSB.  The founder's reasoning was that they 

didn't want to be accused of withholding important safety information.



- An engineer who has done what are probably the most significant 

calculations for ZBAG wrote about why he didn't want to release his 

reports to the public:



 	  Quote: 	
		  1. The reports contain imbeded propriety information.



2. The reports do not offer any instant solutions to the problems 

for those looking for such ... in fact I could go further and state 

that much of the content will have little meaning nor value to non engineers.



3. Payed up ZBAG'ers have been provided with a fairly detailed 

summary of the work I have done.



4. I don't want to carry any liability associated with the release 

of such reports (bear in mind I have not been paid a cent for any of 

the work I have done). The NTSB have provided assurances that I am 

not liable for presenting my views to them in the course of their 

investigation.


	


This doesn't specifically state who talked to whom first, nor what 

his intentions were, but (to me as an engineer) it sounds like a case 

of one engineer talking to another engineer.



My personal opinion tends to be along the line that one shouldn't 

shoot the messenger or whistleblower or what have you. It is still 

highly unusual for the NTSB to recommend to ground (and the FAA to 

not complete inspections), so their actions weren't easily 

anticipated. It seems like it may become a sort of test case for how 

the whole LSA concept is interpreted.

Peter Chapman

Toronto, ON

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