![Matronics Email Lists Forum Index](templates/Matronics/images/logo_phpBB.gif) |
Matronics Email Lists Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
dougsire
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 37
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Yep, you know who you are (Moody, Giacona et al.). You're the ones who are convinced that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just because we have legitimate questions about the viability of the many thousands we (like you) have invested.
I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue your hobby is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? How arrogant are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciously make these recommendations without even running the numbers themselves? Are you that naive?
The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker, acting chair of the NTSB. In addition to other service to his country, he spent 37 1/2 years in the Air Force and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like him is easily duped?
The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief Scientist of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that, they may well have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emotion like you.
Why don’t you grow up and direct your anger where it should be directed, to the hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily have released a balanced aileron option, but are too caught up trying to protect their asses and pride.
Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and take a look at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The supporters of ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are written.
We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why don’t you just take your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and fire off a few clips. You’ll feel better, but certainly will be no smarter.
Doug Sire
CH650
Billings, MT
ZBAGer
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________ Doug Sire 601XL
Do Not Archive |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1416 Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
I'm sure your fellow ZBAGers are proud.
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________ W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.C Guest
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
There is more than enough frustration to go around.� This kind of disrespect C whether in support or opposition to ZBAG C helps no one.� There are grains of truth in the arguments both for and against what ZBAG did and a lot of unsupportable conjecture about near-clandestine contacts between ZBAG and NTSB.�� What I think has happened is that ZBAG has presented sufficient evidence to say that flutter cannot be excluded as a cause.� NTSB has a duty to attempt to intervene to prevent a cause of an accinet from bering repeated needlessly.� What this means is that of there is a small but meaning ful likelihood that flutter was the cause C tthen NTSB is likely to recommend interventions to prenvet flutter.�
Further C some very self-reliant people have worked very hard on teir aircraft and have a tremendous frustration at the recent events.� I would offer that supporting each other through adversity is a more promising direction though.
There are risks in the NTSB recommendation.� One risk is that there were no flutter issues that caused crashes C but that addressing flutter distracts from some other common cause.� Another risk is that there may not be a common cause C but that an entire fleet was grounded needlessly.� My guess is tha NTSB feels comfortable in assuming the second risk C but not the first.� On the ohter hand C if flutter is the commmon cause then NTSB may have saved many lives.
I wish all well in their building and flying activities C and again urge retraint C especially in the personal attacks.� I doubt that anyone on this list percieves himself or herself as some kind of spamming villain bent on the destruction of the good name os Zenith aricraft.� An inflamatory and pejorative C perhaps even racist term C like redneeck C seems not related to building an airplane C nor to flying one. Other pejorative terms referring to dictatorial regimes seem equally misplaced.� I suggest a new rule for posters.� If you wouldn't want your parents� or children to read what you posted C please don't post it.
Frank Roskind
A&P C Attorney at Law C� PPSEL C potential Zenith customer (not dissuaded by recent events)
do not archive
[quote] Subject: Attention all Rednecks
From: dsire(at)imt.net
Date: Fri C 17 Apr 2009 20:59:45 -0700
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dougsire" <dsire(at)imt.net>
Yep C you know who you are (Moody C Giacona et al.). You're the ones who are convinced that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just because we have legitimate questions about the viability of the many thousands we (like you) have invested.
I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue your hobby is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? How arrogant are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciously make these recommendations without even running the numbers themselves? Are you that naive?
The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker C acting chair of the NTSB. In addition to other service to his country C he spent 37 1/2 years in the Air Force and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like him is easily duped?
The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief Scientist of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that C they may well have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emotion like you.
Why don’t you grow up and direct your anger where it should be directed C to the hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily have released a balanced aileron option C but are too caught up trying to protect their asses and pride.
Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and take a look at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The supporters of ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are written.
We know you are all very frustrated by this C so why don’t you just take your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and fire off a few clips. You’ll feel better C but certainly will be no smarter.
Doug Sire
CH650
Billings C MT
ZBAGer
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239843#239843
=====================
_====
Rediscover Hotmail�: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out.
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
fgantt(at)texaviation.com Guest
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Doug
You could have given the people on this list a heads up on the contents of your finding at the same time you sent your finding to the NTSB. This would have been the honorable way to have handled this mater. What is gained by the distrust you have created between yourselves at ZBAG and the Zenith community on the list. This just my opinion but things done in secret always comes back to haunt.
Floyd Gantt
Building CH 650
----------------------------------------
From: "dougsire" <dsire(at)imt.net>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:09 PM
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Attention all Rednecks
Yep, you know who you are (Moody, Giacona et al.). You're the ones who are convinced that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just because we have legitimate questions about the viability of the many thousands we (like you) have invested.
I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue your hobby is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? How arrogant are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciously make these recommendations without even running the numbers themselves? Are you that naive?
The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker, acting chair of the NTSB. In addition to other service to his country, he spent 37 1/2 years in the Air Force and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like him is easily duped?
The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief Scientist of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that, they may well have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emotion like you.
Why don’t you grow up and direct your anger where it should be directed, to the hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily have released a balanced aileron option, but are too caught up trying to protect their asses and pride.
Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and take a look at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The supporters of ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are written.
We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why don’t you just take your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and fire off a few clips. You’ll feel better, but certainly will be no smarter.
Doug Sire
CH650
Billings, MT
ZBAGer
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 39843#239843
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
craig(at)craigandjean.com Guest
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:04 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
What a sad, useless and defensive post. This attempt to equate ones political leanings with their position on the NTSB letter is absurd. I would place myself somewhat left of "liberal" and I have many problems with the logic of the NTSB's reasoning. As other have pointed out the NTSB's conclusion contradicted their own accident reports. History shows that credentialed organizations (public or private) are perfectly capable of reaching wrong conclusions and being victims of group-think. If we are talking "science" here then ZBAG should publish their data.
-- Craig Payne
Yes, please archive
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:13 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 08:59:45PM -0700, dougsire wrote:
Quote: | We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why don???t you just take
your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and
fire off a few clips. You???ll feel better, but certainly will be no
smarter.
|
Careful, Doug. If it hadn't been geting dark when I calmed down enough to
see straight Wednesday, after I was told I wasn't getting my checkride, I'd
have gone out to the range and run a couple hundred rounds through my
eeeeevil black AR-15.
By a lot of folks' measures, I'm a redneck, too, even though I support the
work of ZBAG, both publicly and financially.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________ Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
|
Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 12:47:04AM -0400, Frank Roskind wrote:
Quote: | What I think has happened is that ZBAG has presented sufficient evidence
to say that flutter cannot be excluded as a cause.
|
This is all I've ever contended. Unless and until flutter can be ruled out
as a cause, we must consider it seriously. That's all, but it's enough.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________ Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
pdn8r(at)yahoo.com Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Well said Frank. Thank you for your obviously well thought out comments. I agree with all that you say. The personal attacks taking place on this forum are unfortunate and don't resolve any of the frustration or fix the problem we are all facing. I have about $30K invested in my project right now and stretched my budget to get the quickbuild in hopes of getting airborne in a shorter period of time. I sacrificed flying time in a rental and opted to put the money in the quickbuild. Seemed like a good idea at the time and may well still be.
I will keep going forward with my own confidence that the airplane will be airworthy in a reasonable amount of time full well knowing that the wheels turn slowly. I am retiring in in June and was looking forward to having my airplane flying shortly therearfter but now.....who knows. I am greatly disheartened by the persoanl attacks taking place. We all gain nothing from such attacks.
Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Sat, 4/18/09, Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
Quote: |
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: RE: Attention all Rednecks
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 12:47 AM
#yiv1923725730 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1923725730 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} There is more than enough frustration to go around. This kind of disrespect, whether in support or opposition to ZBAG, helps no one. There are grains of truth in the arguments both for and against what ZBAG did and a lot of unsupportable conjecture about near-clandestine contacts between ZBAG and NTSB. What I think has happened is that ZBAG has presented sufficient evidence to say that flutter cannot be excluded as a cause. NTSB has a duty to attempt to intervene to prevent a cause of an accinet from bering repeated needlessly. What this means is that of there is a small but meaning ful likelihood that flutter was the cause, tthen NTSB is likely to recommend interventions to prenvet flutter.
Further, some very self-reliant people have worked very hard on teir aircraft and have a tremendous frustration at the recent events. I would offer that supporting each other through adversity is a more promising direction though.
There are risks in the NTSB recommendation. One risk is that there were no flutter issues that caused crashes, but that addressing flutter distracts from some other common cause.� Another risk is that there may not be a common cause, but that an entire fleet was grounded needlessly. My guess is tha NTSB feels comfortable in assuming the second risk, but not the first. On the ohter hand, if flutter is the commmon cause then NTSB may have saved many lives.
I wish all well in their building and flying activities, and again urge retraint, especially in the personal attacks. I doubt that anyone on this list percieves himself or herself as some kind of spamming villain bent on the destruction of the good name os Zenith aricraft. An inflamatory and pejorative, perhaps even racist term, like redneeck, seems not related to building an airplane, nor to flying one. Other pejorative terms referring to dictatorial regimes seem equally misplaced. I suggest a new rule for posters. If you wouldn't want your parents or children to read what you posted, please don't post it.
Frank Roskind
A&P, Attorney at Law, PPSEL, potential Zenith customer (not dissuaded by recent events)
do not archive
Quote: | Subject: Zenith-List: Attention all Rednecks
From: dsire(at)imt.net
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:59:45 -0700
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dougsire" <dsire(at)imt.net>
Yep, you know who you are (Moody, Giacona et al.). You're the ones who are convinced that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just because we have legitimate questions about the viability of the many thousands we (like you) have invested.
I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue your hobby is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? How arrogant are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciously make these recommendations without even running the numbers themselves? Are you that naive?
The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker, acting chair of the NTSB. In addition to other service to his country, he spent 37 1/2 years in the Air Force and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like him is easily duped?
The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief Scientist of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that, they may well have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emotion like you.
Why don’t you grow up and direct your anger where it should be directed, to the hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily have released a balanced aileron option, but are too caught up trying to protect their asses and pride.
Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and take a look at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The supporters of ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are written.
We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why don’t you just take your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and fire off a few clips. You’ll feel better, but certainly will be no smarter.
Doug Sire
CH650
Billings, MT
ZBAGer
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239843#239843
=====================
_====
|
Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. Quote: |
arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
zenithlist(at)yahoo.com Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
I second that! Let's put our "bruise" egos aside and work on getting the fix that would give most of us confidence in the airworthness of 601XL.
From: Bill Pagan <pdn8r(at)yahoo.com>
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:06:19 AM
Subject: RE: Attention all Rednecks
Well said Frank. Thank you for your obviously well thought out comments.� I agree with all that you say. The personal attacks taking place on this forum are unfortunate and don't resolve any of the frustration or fix the problem we are all facing. I have about $30K invested in my project right now and stretched my budget to get the quickbuild in hopes of getting airborne in a shorter period of time. I sacrificed flying time in a rental and opted to put the money in the quickbuild. Seemed like a good idea at the time and may well still be.
I will keep going forward with my own confidence that the airplane will be airworthy in a reasonable amount of time full well knowing that the wheels turn slowly. I am retiring in in June and was looking forward to having my airplane flying shortly therearfter but now.....who knows. I am greatly disheartened by the persoanl attacks taking place.� We all gain nothing from such attacks.
Bill Pagan EAA Tech Counselor #4395
601XL QBK/Corvair/N565BW (RES)
--- On Sat, 4/18/09, Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
Quote: |
From: Frank Roskind <frankroskind(at)HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: RE: Attention all Rednecks
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 12:47 AM
#yiv1923725730 .hmmessage P { margin:0px;padding:0px;} #yiv1923725730 { font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;} There is more than enough frustration to go around. This kind of disrespect, whether in support or opposition to ZBAG, helps no one. There are grains of truth in the arguments both for and against what ZBAG did and a lot of unsupportable conjecture about near-clandestine contacts between ZBAG and NTSB. What I think has happened is that ZBAG has presented sufficient evidence to say that flutter cannot be excluded as a cause. NTSB has a duty to attempt to intervene to prevent a cause of an accinet from bering repeated needlessly. What this means is that of there is a small but meaning ful likelihood that flutter was the cause, tthen NTSB is likely to recommend interventions to prenvet flutter.
Further, some very self-reliant people have worked very hard on teir aircraft and have a tremendous frustration at the recent events. I would offer that supporting each other through adversity is a more promising direction though.
There are risks in the NTSB recommendation. One risk is that there were no flutter issues that caused crashes, but that addressing flutter distracts from some other common cause.� Another risk is that there may not be a common cause, but that an entire fleet was grounded needlessly. My guess is tha NTSB feels comfortable in assuming the second risk, but not the first. On the ohter hand, if flutter is the commmon cause then NTSB may have saved many lives.
I wish all well in their building and flying activities, and again urge retraint, especially in the personal attacks. I doubt that anyone on this list percieves himself or herself as some kind of spamming villain bent on the destruction of the good name os Zenith aricraft. An inflamatory and pejorative, perhaps even racist term, like redneeck, seems not related to building an airplane, nor to flying one. Other pejorative terms referring to dictatorial regimes seem equally misplaced. I suggest a new rule for posters. If you wouldn't want your parents or children to read what you posted, please don't post it.
Frank Roskind
A&P, Attorney at Law, PPSEL, potential Zenith customer (not dissuaded by recent events)
do not archive
Quote: | Subject: Zenith-List: Attention all Rednecks
From: dsire(at)imt.net
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:59:45 -0700
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
--> Zenith-List message posted by: "dougsire" <dsire(at)imt.net>
Yep, you know who you are (Moody, Giacona et al.). You're the ones who are convinced that a group of fellow builders has ruined your life just because we have legitimate questions about the viability of the many thousands we (like you) have invested.
I have a few questions for you. Why do you think your right to pursue your hobby is somehow more important than our pursuit of our own safety? How arrogant are you? Do you seriously think that the NTSB would capriciously make these recommendations without even running the numbers themselves? Are you that naive?
The NTSB letter was signed by Mark Rosenker, acting chair of the NTSB. In addition to other service to his country, he spent 37 1/2 years in the Air Force and is a retired Major General. Do you think someone like him is easily duped?
The e-mail I received about the initial release originated from the Chief Scientist of the Office of Aviation Safety at the NTSB. Imagine that, they may well have used SCIENCE to reach their conclusions instead of Emotion like you.
Why don’t you grow up and direct your anger where it should be directed, to the hubris of Chris Heintz and his brood. They could easily have released a balanced aileron option, but are too caught up trying to protect their asses and pride.
Follow the links in the recent post about the Modesto Bee article and take a look at the photos of the victims. These are real people. The supporters of ZBAG are simply trying to make sure no more articles like that are written.
We know you are all very frustrated by this, so why don’t you just take your most recently purchased assault rifle out back into the woods and fire off a few clips. You’ll feel better, but certainly will be no smarter.
Doug Sire
CH650
Billings, MT
ZBAGer
--------
Doug Sire 601XL
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239843#239843
=====================
_====
|
Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you. Check it out. Quote: |
arget=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
|
|
Quote: | http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target=_blank rel=nofol==
|
[quote][b]
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
Tim Juhl
![](images/avatars/6906149924722af09e2097.jpg)
Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 488 Location: "Thumb" of Michigan
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Re: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Geez, we all need to take a deep breath and step back for a moment. We knew that this matter would eventually come to head so it is a waste of time to point fingers and call each other names. Whether you joined ZBAG or did your own thing is irrelevant. We are all in the same boat, so now more than ever we need to support each other.
I don't believe there is any XL/650 owner who does not want to see this matter resolved quickly. Indeed, the problems many of you have reported (delayed inspections, checkrides, etc.) can only be resolved by bringing this matter to a speedy conclusion. I'm hopeful that will happen as I see no advantage for Zenith to drag things out as that can only further tarnish the company's image.
With the above in mind, we should focus our energies on getting Zenith and the other involved parties to move things along so we can all get back to building and flying as soon as possible. Attacking Zenith, ZBAG, the NTSB or individual builders does nothing but focus attention away from the real issue. Whether you like the current president or not, I agree with him when he says that it is better to focus on the future rather than dwell on the past.
Tim Juhl
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________ ______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring! |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
jaybannist(at)cs.com Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:35 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
I believe that the old adage "haste makes waste" is still valid. Zenith has said that they are working on the problem. I, for one, really don't want to agitate for a quick solution to a problem that might not exist; nor to solve a perceived problem, only to ignore a real problem.
Suppose Zenith issues an aileron mass balance solution, but aileron flutter isn't really the problem. That would leave us with a hidden problem, wouldn't it? I would much rather Zenith have the time to find out what the problem really is (if there is a problem) before developing something to satisfy a perceived problem.
Jay Bannister
--
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
notsew_evets(at)frontiern Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
I ll drink to that.
Heck, I ll drink to anything....
[quote] ---
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
psm(at)att.net Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Hi Jay,
I agree with you that it would be desirable for Zenith to make all the problems go away rather than just satisfying the NTSB. Unfortunately, I'm afraid if Zenith had the resources and will to find and solve this problem they would have done it years ago.
For me, a Zenith design to satisfy the actual demands of the NTSB would be a great thing to have. This should include mass balance for the ailerons and possibly some solution for the stick sensitivity increase with increased G's.
Paul
XL grounded
At 09:33 AM 4/18/2009, you wrote:
[quote]Suppose Zenith issues an aileron mass balance solution, but aileron flutter isn't really the problem. That would leave us with a hidden problem, wouldn't it? I would much rather Zenith have the time to find out what the problem really is (if there is a problem) before developing something to satisfy a perceived problem.
Jay Bannister[b]
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
eldenej(at)yahoo.com Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:59 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
I think, Jay, you make a good point. It seems to me that it would be strengthened considerably, however, if Zenith was more forthcoming as to the what/where/when/how we assume/hope they are confronting.
Elden Jacobson
--- On Sun, 4/19/09, jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com> wrote:
[quote]
From: jaybannist(at)cs.com <jaybannist(at)cs.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Attention all Rednecks
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 12:33 AM
I believe that the old adage "haste makes waste" is still valid. Zenith has said that they are working on the problem. I, for one, really don't want to agitate for a quick solution to a problem that might not exist; nor to solve a perceived problem, only to ignore a real problem.
Suppose Zenith issues an aileron mass balance solution, but aileron flutter isn't really the problem. That would leave us with a hidden problem, wouldn't it? I would much rather Zenith have the time to find out what the problem really is (if there is a problem) before developing something to satisfy a perceived problem.
Jay Bannister
--
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
tigerrick(at)mindspring.c Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 9:29 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Spot ON, Jay! Bravo Zulu!
There are TWO incorrect assumptions floating about here. One is that aileron flutter or vibration alone is the smoking gun in all of the 601 crashes, and the second is that "Zenith isn't doing anything" about it. Horse pucky.
According to Sebastien, and I don't think he's lying, the 601 airframe is undergoing a complete structural review AGAIN, by two outside engineers independently, only to FAR Part 23 standards this time (which includes flutter testing). All it took was a simple phone call on Wednesday to find this out.
Yes, the elevator pitch sensitivity is a LOT higher than other, certified airplanes. Frankly, I've spent the last 30 years flying Grummans mostly, which are also pitch sensitive. So this doesn't bother me in the slightest. However, the thought of a passenger accidently jamming the stick forward in cruise scares the bejezus out of me, as it's really tough to reattach the wings as they flutter away from the fuselage. So I also installed the elevator stops that limit downward deflection to 15 degrees as a hedge against this.
And, yes. A day at the rifle range, like a day flying, is time well invested.
Rick Lindstrom
Proudly Redneck
--
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
eldenej(at)yahoo.com Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:47 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Thank you, Rick. My only question: instead of each one of us calling Zenith, wouldn't it have been easier for them to have publicly said: "this is what we are doing in response to the real concerns being expressed by the NTSB and xl owners/builders"? If they are leading at this point, I'd sure like them to so state.
�
Elden Jacobson
�
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Attention all Rednecks
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 1:28 AM
Spot ON, Jay! Bravo Zulu!
There are TWO incorrect assumptions floating about here. One is that aileron flutter or vibration alone is the smoking gun in all of the 601 crashes, and the second is that "Zenith isn't doing anything" about it. Horse pucky.
According to Sebastien, and I don't think he's lying, the 601 airframe is undergoing a complete structural review AGAIN, by two outside engineers independently, only to FAR Part 23 standards this time (which includes flutter testing). All it took was a simple phone call on Wednesday to find this out
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
Gig Giacona
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 Posts: 1416 Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Zenith made the following statement the day after the NTSB letter was released.
"Zenith Aircraft will communicate with the FAA about the issues raised in the NTSB memo. We will provide more information after we thoroughly consider the issues raised in the NTSB memo and we have spoken with the FAA about those issues."
That was on the 15th. Today is Saturday the 18th. These things take time. I know I don't want Zenith or the FAA do rush to any half ass or knee jerk decisions like the NTSB did.
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________ W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
tigerrick(at)mindspring.c Guest
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
Sure it would, Elden. Only we're not in a position to make judgements about when the company should or shouldn't release information on a mass basis. But as a 601 builder/pilot, I'd like to hear as much as I can as soon as possible.
I agree that the info from the mothership has been sparse at best, and in its absence, imaginations tend to run wild. But what we have seen has been logical and well thought out when released. All along they've said "no news is goods news" while search for the fatal smoking gun, and I believe it.
Sun n Fun is nigh, and I'll bet my Blue Mountain EFIS that Zenith will have plenty to say on the issue during the event. I'm sure looking forward to spending some face time with them.
rick
do not archive
--
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
jmaynard
Joined: 27 Feb 2008 Posts: 394 Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)
|
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 04:53:25PM -0700, Rick Lindstrom wrote:
Quote: | Sun n Fun is nigh, and I'll bet my Blue Mountain EFIS that Zenith will
have plenty to say on the issue during the event. I'm sure looking forward
to spending some face time with them.
|
I'd dearly love to be at the 601 forum with Mathieu and Sebastien Heintz...I
think it'll be a VERY interesting time. Someone wanna tape and put on
YouTube?
It's Tuesday, from 12 to 1 PM in Tent 11.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, AGI http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (KFRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
_________________ Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC |
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
eldenej(at)yahoo.com Guest
|
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:26 am Post subject: Attention all Rednecks |
|
|
I wish I could be there; we'll look forward to your reporting with anticipation.
�
Elden
Do not archive
--- On Sun, 4/19/09, Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com> wrote:
From: Rick Lindstrom <tigerrick(at)mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Re: Attention all Rednecks
To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Sunday, April 19, 2009, 7:53 AM
Sure it would, Elden. Only we're not in a position to make judgements about when the company should or shouldn't release information on a mass basis. But as a 601 builder/pilot, I'd like to hear as much as I can as soon as possible.
I agree that the info from the mothership has been sparse at best, and in its absence, imaginations tend to run wild. But what we have seen has been logical and well thought out when released. All along they've said "no news is goods news" while search for the fatal smoking gun, and I believe it.
Sun n Fun is nigh, and I'll bet my Blue Mountain EFIS that Zenith will have plenty to say on the issue during the event. I'm sure looking forward to spending some face time with them.
rick
do not archive
--
| - The Matronics Zenith-List Email Forum - | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith-List |
|
|
|
Back to top |
|
![](templates/Matronics/images/spacer.gif) |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|