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John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:52 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

Something I temporarily forgot.  When test making changes and test flying, 

make one change at a time, then go fly to see what the results are.  I 

didn't do that yesterday.



My new Warp Drive Blades had a little edge of black paint left when the 

masking tape was pulled off the nickle leading edges.  I did my initial 

pitch adjustments with this tiny ridge of paint.  My rpm at WOT straight and 

level indicated I was pitched a little bit light, 5,600 rpm.



I did three things to my airplane before I test flew it again:



1-Sanded and feathered the edge even with the trailing edge of the nickle 

leading edge.



2-Cleaned and reoiled the K&N air filters.



3-Adjusted the covers on my conical K&N filters to stand off about an inch 

rather than the original stock 1/2 inch.



Was rather surprised on takeoff, my climb rpm was only 5200 rather than 

5400.  Also surprised when my max rpm had dropped to 5,500 rpm WOT straight 

and level flight.



Got an idea cleaning up the ridge of paint on the blades may have increased 

their bite.



Don't know if the air filter cleaning/reoiling or the change in air filter 

cover standoff pulled power off the engine.  Hope that is not the case.



On the other hand, it is hard to believe that tiny ridge of paint would have 

that much effect on its performance, but I think it did.



john h

mkIII - Getting ready for Lakeland and Monument Valley.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:59 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

> Something I temporarily forgot.  When making changes and test flying, 

 	  Quote: 	
		   make one change at a time, then go fly to see what the results are.  I 

 didn't do that yesterday.

 
	




The above is how it should have read from my previous.



20,000 xin loi



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  Something I temporarily forgot.  When test making changes and test flying, 

make one change at a time, then go fly to see what the results are.  I 

didn't do that yesterday.



My new Warp Drive Blades had a little edge of black paint left when the 

masking tape was pulled off the nickle leading edges.  I did my initial 

pitch adjustments with this tiny ridge of paint.  My rpm at WOT straight and 

level indicated I was pitched a little bit light, 5,600 rpm.



I did three things to my airplane before I test flew it again:



1-Sanded and feathered the edge even with the trailing edge of the nickle 

leading edge.



2-Cleaned and reoiled the K&N air filters.



3-Adjusted the covers on my conical K&N filters to stand off about an inch 

rather than the original stock 1/2 inch.



Was rather surprised on takeoff, my climb rpm was only 5200 rather than 

5400.  Also surprised when my max rpm had dropped to 5,500 rpm WOT straight 

and level flight.



Got an idea cleaning up the ridge of paint on the blades may have increased 

their bite.



Don't know if the air filter cleaning/reoiling or the change in air filter 

cover standoff pulled power off the engine.  Hope that is not the case.



On the other hand, it is hard to believe that tiny ridge of paint would have 

that much effect on its performance, but I think it did.



john h

mkIII - Getting ready for Lakeland and Monument Valley. 	




I've added and taken off leading edge tape and foil on quit a few props over the years and never noticed any change in the performance. Those were IVOs, wood props and powerfins mostly tho. Could make a difference on the WD, I'm only on my second one.



Oiling K&N's tho, has given me positively scary results . I never developed the trick to what's the right amount of oil, so I oil extremely lightly or not at all to avoid the plugged filter syndrome at that worst possible time. 



Dennis Kirby flew out to KSAF this am and we finally shook hands and talked planes, props and flying for a bit. The NM posse is in formation. Dennis is going to invite the Belin trikers to come along too which would be positively neat. I'm going to call the owner of the other Titan on our field this week and see if he wants to go too.

Former partner in my titan may go in his RV-6A, tho he'll be a lone wolf at his speeds....



Still waiting on my vacation grant from work, I'm guardedly optimistic that I'll get it but then again in this economy I may not be in a good position to fight back if I get turned down.

I'm planning to go meanwhile.



The likely gathering spots for the NM posse are either Double Eagle airport or Gallup at this point. 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time

I bet removing that ridge could make a huge change on the prop.  Going so fast, close to the speed of sound things get very critical.   I was looking at a Cirrus the other day, on the tail it had a piece of tape along the leading edge.  It took looking closely to see a very small v^v^v^v^ zigzag pattern in the tape, which is acting as a vortex generator.  It hardly qualified as a rise in the tape, just something you would feel if you ran your finger along it.  I would have never thought that a bump almost to small to see would have made any appreciable difference in the way a cirrus tail flys, but it does !



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:32 pm Post subject: One Thing At A Time

> The likely gathering spots for the NM posse are either Double Eagle 

airport or Gallup at this point.

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 LS


	




My last refuel prior to Monument Valley is Gallup.  Easy in and out, if the 

wind is not atrocious, like last year.



Also, even if the courtesy car is unavailable, it is an easy walk to a good 

restaurant.



Also got fuel and RON at Double Eagle.  Got relatives in Rio Rancho.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:35 pm Post subject: One Thing At A Time

While I can not give any advise on 912 engines I believe I can on 503s. Over 

oiling the air filter will reduce RPM.

I wash the filters in warm soapy water or KNL cleaning solution and let dry 

in the sun. I do not put any oil on them. When its time to change the plugs 

its also time to clean the air filters. .Over oiled filters will leave tell 

tail splotchs of oil on the tail plane and shortly after that you may notice 

a reluctance to reach full RPM on take off. Removal of the filters at this 

stage and it feels like you have been turbo charged.



Regards

Tony

Downunder

MK111c

503

---

David Lucas

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 79
Location: Europe. based Amsterdam NL

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:32 am Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time

Can remember, years ago, where someone dimpled the camber face of his prop blade much like a golf ball has dimples in it and got a slight increase in performance together with about 100 RPM increase at a given power setting. Just dug out the notes I had on it (sorry no photo's);



The dimples were centered on the face of the propeller at the peak of the 

camber of the prop blade, 3 rows .5 inches apart.  The dimples were 

staggered on 3/4 inch center.  Diameter and depth of dimple did not not seem too critical.  He used a diameter of approximately .200 by .100 deep.



Also; Wicks Aircraft Supply (1-800-221-9425) Part number 259-200 for homebuilt vortelator kit for the prop is one option that allows you to try similar technology without drilling holes in your wood propeller.  This modification benefits props that are less than ideally efficient.



This info is a bit old, so part No's etc might have changed.



David.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:39 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

I do have a K&N filter on my solex but consider it to be mostly a bug  

screen too.

Probably needs a debugging this spring.

K&N advertises aftermarket intake filter kits in all the car mags.   

predicting X amount of increased hp

which is a lot of BS.  In most cases the factory big box type filter  

has been engineered to get as good as

you will get.  Any perceived benefit from the K&N is just that....  

perceived, like how you swear your

engine now runs smoother after that oil change. -not.

BB



On 20, Apr 2009, at 3:34 AM, Tony Oldman wrote:



[quote] 



 While I can not give any advise on 912 engines I believe I can on  

 503s. Over oiling the air filter will reduce RPM.

 I wash the filters in warm soapy water or KNL cleaning solution and  

 let dry in the sun. I do not put any oil on them. When its time to  

 change the plugs its also time to clean the air filters. .Over  

 oiled filters will leave tell tail splotchs of oil on the tail  

 plane and shortly after that you may notice a reluctance to reach  

 full RPM on take off. Removal of the filters at this stage and it  

 feels like you have been turbo charged.



 Regards

 Tony

 Downunder

 MK111c

 503

 ---

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:59 am Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time

 	  slyck(at)frontiernet.net wrote: 	
		  I do have a K&N filter on my solex but consider it to be mostly a bug  

screen too.

Probably needs a debugging this spring.

K&N advertises aftermarket intake filter kits in all the car mags.   

predicting X amount of increased hp

which is a lot of BS.  In most cases the factory big box type filter  

has been engineered to get as good as

you will get.  Any perceived benefit from the K&N is just that....  

perceived, like how you swear your

engine now runs smoother after that oil change. -not.

BB

	




Don't want to get into a K&N bash fest, but truth is the unoiled filter is perfectly adequate for our needs as we generally don't run our motors on the ground for long periods of time. Mostly we're up in the clean air. 



Oiling is a black art the first few times you do it and making a mistake those first couple of times till you get the hang of it can be very expensive and possibly painful.



I practically never oil mine for that reason as I'd rather be assured the fan keeps turning after cleaning and installation. Without the oil they still filter quite well, certainly well enough for our needs.



First annual I did on my plane was with an AnP over at Los Alamos, NM. Anyone who's flown in there knows your only choice for departure involves a 500' or deeper cliff right off the east end of the runway into a giant canyon (with who-knows-what buried down there from activities of LANL). No way I was going to blast off from there with freshly oiled filters so we left em dry (and they stayed that way till I replaced them).....



Finally, do use the K&N solvent for cleaning, tho. A regular solvent will eventually damage the element....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: One thing at a time

Lucien- Please correct me if I'm wrong.  A friend with extensive 2-stroke knowledge told me that oiling the K&N filter is generally unnecessary because a 2-stroke at idle will "chuff" back into the filter, leaving oil. This would not apply to 2-strokes with a reed valve.  If run at low speeds for a while it will become over oiled.  If oiled as per spec, and then run at low speed, it can cause noticable loss of power.  He said what you said- for our usage, clean and don't oil.  Would you agree with this?

  

                                                Bill Sullivan

                                                Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                FS 447

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

Lucien/Gang:



My experience and opinions only.



I don't know where you have been flying, but there isn't any clean air, even 

if it looks clean.



I would not consider operating my engine without the K&N filter oiled.



 > Don't want to get into a K&N bash fest, but truth is the unoiled filter 

is perfectly adequate for our needs as we generally don't run our motors on 

the ground for long periods of time. Mostly we're up in the clean air.



You just think "we're up in the clean air."  Short local flights will 

probably not give you a real indication of how much dirt that little gold 

plated engine is injesting, but do an 8 hour flight day and you will be 

amazed at the amount of crude that collects on the leading edges of 

everything.  What you don't see when flying is what can hurt you.



 > Oiling is a black art the first few times you do it and making a mistake 

those first couple of times till you get the hang of it can be very 

expensive and possibly painful.



I'm not an expert at cleaning and oiling K&N air filters, so I usually over 

oil.  I also clean them with gasoline.  I think it does a better job, is 

quicker, and a lot less expensive.  I have never seen gasoline damage 

cotton.  I have never had an engine problem because of a K&N oil filter that 

was over oiled.



 	  Quote: 	
		   I practically never oil mine for that reason as I'd rather be assured the 

 fan keeps turning after cleaning and installation. Without the oil they 

 still filter quite well, certainly well enough for our needs.


	


I wouldn't buy an engine if I new it had been operated without an adequate 

air filter.



Again, I am not going to gamble on the life of my engine by not oiling the 

filter.  In addition to the airplane, I also use oiled cotton and oiled foam 

rubber air filter elements on my ATV and dirt bike.  Without the "correct" 

oil, they probably would not last all day.



There is a difference between the oil used for cotton and foam elements. 

Best not get them mixed up.  Seems the oil for foam elements is quite sticky 

and thicker than oil used for cotton.



 	  Quote: 	
		   Finally, do use the K&N solvent for cleaning, tho. A regular solvent will 

 eventually damage the element....


	


Again, my own experience and opinions only.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: One thing at a time

Bill S:

  

 Far as I know, most two and four stroke engines  experience what I call "fuel vapor stand off".  That is a little fuel vapor  cloud that sits a couple inches off the mouth of the carb.  I discovered  this when I was a kid experimenting (playing) with the B&S engine on my Dads  lawn mower.  My 1935 Ford pickup did the same thing.  My 447 and my  912 engines do it too.  That is where a lot of excess oil is coming from on  two strokes that are configured with the air filters/carbs positioned  perpendicular to the air stream.  Wind blows that little cloud of fuel  vapor out of the filter.

  

 My 912 K&N filters are red after oiling, but  will be blue the next time I pull them for cleaning and oiling.  Why, lots  of blue dye in 100LL.  How does the air filter get satuarated with this dye  when there is constant vacuum pulling air from outside to inside?

  

 If you all think you do not need to oil your  K&N filters, that is your business.  Personally, I think K&N  engineers know a lot more about their filters than the average man on the  street.

  

 Most all the sand rails, dune buggies, and atv's I  ran into in the dunes of California, Arizona, and Nevada, use oiled cotton air  filter elements, either K&N or some of the newer names or air filter  producers.  Doubt you'll see any of those filters run dry.

  

 john h

 mkIII

 [quote]    

                               Lucien- Please correct me if I'm wrong.  A friend with          extensive 2-stroke knowledge told me that oiling the K&N filter is          generally unnecessary because a 2-stroke at idle will "chuff" back into          the filter, leaving oil. This would not apply to 2-strokes with a          reed valve.  If run at low speeds for a while it will become over          oiled.  If oiled as per spec, and then run at low speed, it can          cause noticable loss of power.  He said what you said- for our          usage, clean and don't oil.  Would you agree with this?

          

                                                                 Bill Sullivan

                                                                 Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                                 FS 447

 	  Quote: 	
		   	
[b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  

You just think "we're up in the clean air."  Short local flights will 

probably not give you a real indication of how much dirt that little gold 

plated engine is injesting, but do an 8 hour flight day and you will be 

amazed at the amount of crude that collects on the leading edges of 

everything.  What you don't see when flying is what can hurt you.

	




It's not where you go, it's how long you're up.



The acid test is pulling the filter after a period of running time and seeing if anything has collected on the inside. I.e. if you drag a finger along the inner part of the filter and it leaves a little road in some dust, then you have a leak or the element is letting dirt in.



I've run the K&N's for about a decade and many 100's of hours without oiling and have never seen anything other than a completely clean filter on the inside. 



Damage to the element due to using the wrong solvent (i.e. any kind of kerosene) will give you telltale little bits of white stuff on the inside of the filter. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  

I'm not an expert at cleaning and oiling K&N air filters, so I usually over 

oil.  I also clean them with gasoline.  I think it does a better job, is 

quicker, and a lot less expensive.  I have never seen gasoline damage 

cotton.  I have never had an engine problem because of a K&N oil filter that 

was over oiled.

	




I have had trouble and in the most notable case was extremely lucky that the plane was a slow one and I had plenty of runway left. 

Rich running and low power is another common result I've had before I finally decided not to use the oil anymore.



Never again for me.



 	  Quote: 	
		  

Again, I am not going to gamble on the life of my engine by not oiling the 

filter.  In addition to the airplane, I also use oiled cotton and oiled foam 

rubber air filter elements on my ATV and dirt bike.  Without the "correct" 

oil, they probably would not last all day.



There is a difference between the oil used for cotton and foam elements. 

Best not get them mixed up.  Seems the oil for foam elements is quite sticky 

and thicker than oil used for cotton.

	




The hazard from over oiling is far, far greater than not oiling the filter and being assured of good airflow and correct mixture. Again, it has not been my experience that the K&N doesn't work adequately without oiling but it definitely has been my experience that an over oiled filter is extremely dangerous and the greater of two evils.



How well the filter is functioning is easy to verify by pulling it on a regular basis and checking the inside, and I've never observed a problem anywhere I've flown any of my engines. 



My experience and opinions only as well,



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

wrk2win4u(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

Regarding filtering “clean air”; I agree with most everything John has posted. Where I differ from John is; I don’t like to use gasoline for anything except the fuel tank  

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />  

I bought my diesel truck new in “96. When it was time to change the air cleaner C I replaced it with a K&N.  The filter has been used for over 120K miles C (12 years) and is in great condition.  

  

Yes C it can be costly to clean and oil filters. All of my vehicles and tractor now have K&N filters. I have used paint thinner as a cleaning solvent for the filters. This breaks down the oil and releases the gathered gunk. It does not appear to harm the filter fibers at all. Use a regular pump bottle you can buy at Wal-Mart to apply the thinner. Then wash the filter in a dish soap/warm water solution. Allow it to dry before applying the oil. I buy the genuine K&N oil from an online auto parts distributor in the 1 gallon container. If you warm the oil before applying it C it will move through the pump easier and will permeate the filter.  

  

Just an opinion of a reader of the list.  

  

I am still looking for MY KOLB.   

  

 Kurt

 Sandy C Utah

 

[quote] From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: One Thing At A Time

 Date: Mon C 20 Apr 2009 08:34:21 -0500

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Lucien/Gang:

 

 My experience and opinions only.

 

 I don't know where you have been flying C but there isn't any clean air C even 

 if it looks clean.

 

 I would not consider operating my engine without the K&N filter oiled.

 

 > Don't want to get into a K&N bash fest C but truth is the unoiled filter 

 is perfectly adequate for our needs as we generally don't run our motors on 

 the ground for long periods of time. Mostly we're up in the clean air.

 

 You just think "we're up in the clean air." Short local flights will 

 probably not give you a real indication of how much dirt that little gold 

 plated engine is injesting C but do an 8 hour flight day and you will be 

 amazed at the amount of crude that collects on the leading edges of 

 everything. What you don't see when flying is what can hurt you.

 

 > Oiling is a black art the first few times you do it and making a mistake 

 those first couple of times till you get the hang of it can be very 

 expensive and possibly painful.

 

 I'm not an expert at cleaning and oiling K&N air filters C so I usually over 

 oil. I also clean them with gasoline. I think it does a better job C is 

 quicker C and a lot less expensive. I have never seen gasoline damage 

 cotton. I have never had an engine problem because of a K&N oil filter that 

 was over oiled.

 

 > I practically never oil mine for that reason as I'd rather be assured the 

 > fan keeps turning after cleaning and installation. Without the oil they 

 > still filter quite well C certainly well enough for our needs.

 

 I wouldn't buy an engine if I new it had been operated without an adequate 

 air filter.

 

 Again C I am not going to gamble on the life of my engine by not oiling the 

 filter. In addition to the airplane C I also use oiled cotton and oiled foam 

 rubber air filter elements on my ATV and dirt bike. Without the "correct" 

 oil C they probably would not last all day.

 

 There is a difference between the oil used for cotton and foam elements. 

 Best not get them mixed up. Seems the oil for foam elements is quite sticky 

 and thicker than oil used for cotton.

 

 > Finally C do use the K&N solvent for cleaning C tho. A regular solvent will 

 > eventually damage the element....

 

 Again C my own experience and opinions only.

 

 john=======================

 

 

 

Rediscover Hotmail®: Get e-mail storage that grows with you.  Check it out.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

williamtsullivan(at)att.n
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: One thing at a time

John- I use the K&N pre oiled filter, and I have not had occassion to clean it.  I don't know if it could be run dry, but I wouldn't.  Where I have run it, it was dusty- including my yard.  I have seen engines (log skidders) destroy their engines in a few hours when somebody ran it without a filter instead of cleaning it.  Seems like the K&N might allow excess oil to be pulled through pretty quickly, as opposed to the felt type used on a chain saw.  Either way, I think excessive oil would drip off, or get wiped off.  I don't know if it could retain enough oil to clog.  The old oil bath filters never seemed to restrict air flow (farm tractor and old trucks).  Could be my friend is full of it- not for the first time, either. 

   My problem is probably due to the worn out carb parts, not the filter.  I ordered the parts from Lockwood- should be here this week.

   Have a nice time at S&F, and say hello to Travis and Dennis for me.  I am holding an order for them until they get back. 

  

                                                  Bill Sullivan

                                                  Windsor Locks, Ct.

                                                  FS 447

 [quote][b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

>

 	  Quote: 	
		   How well the filter is functioning is easy to verify by pulling it on a 

 regular basis and checking the inside, and I've never observed a problem 

 anywhere I've flown any of my engines.



 My experience and opinions only as well,



 LS


	


I think one would get a better idea of how much dirt is getting through the 

filter by checking the inside of the carb and intake manifold, rather than 

the inside of the filter.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

wrk2win4u(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

Regarding filtering “clean air”; I agree with most everything John has posted. Where I differ from John is; I don’t like to use gasoline for anything except the fuel tank  

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />  

I bought my diesel truck new in “96. When it was time to change the air cleaner C I replaced it with a K&N.  The filter has been used for over 120K miles C (12 years) and is in great condition.  

  

Yes C it can be costly to clean and oil filters. All of my vehicles and tractor now have K&N filters. I have used paint thinner as a cleaning solvent for the filters. This breaks down the oil and releases the gathered gunk. It does not appear to harm the filter fibers at all. Use a regular pump bottle you can buy at Wal-Mart to apply the thinner. Then wash the filter in a dish soap/warm water solution. Allow it to dry before applying the oil. I buy the genuine K&N oil from an online auto parts distributor in the 1 gallon container. If you warm the oil before applying it C it will move through the pump easier and will permeate the filter.  

  

Just an opinion of a reader of the list.  

  

I am still looking for MY KOLB.   

  

 Kurt 

 Sandy C Utah

 

[quote] From: jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com

 To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Re: One Thing At A Time

 Date: Mon C 20 Apr 2009 08:34:21 -0500

 

 --> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com>

 

 Lucien/Gang:

 

 My experience and opinions only.

 

 I don't know where you have been flying C but there isn't any clean air C even 

 if it looks clean.

 

 I would not consider operating my engine without the K&N filter oiled.

 

 > Don't want to get into a K&N bash fest C but truth is the unoiled filter 

 is perfectly adequate for our needs as we generally don't run our motors on 

 the ground for long periods of time. Mostly we're up in the clean air.

 

 You just think "we're up in the clean air." Short local flights will 

 probably not give you a real indication of how much dirt that little gold 

 plated engine is injesting C but do an 8 hour flight day and you will be 

 amazed at the amount of crude that collects on the leading edges of 

 everything. What you don't see when flying is what can hurt you.

 

 > Oiling is a black art the first few times you do it and making a mistake 

 those first couple of times till you get the hang of it can be very 

 expensive and possibly painful.

 

 I'm not an expert at cleaning and oiling K&N air filters C so I usually over 

 oil. I also clean them with gasoline. I think it does a better job C is 

 quicker C and a lot less expensive. I have never seen gasoline damage 

 cotton. I have never had an engine problem because of a K&N oil filter that 

 was over oiled.

 

 > I practically never oil mine for that reason as I'd rather be assured the 

 > fan keeps turning after cleaning and installation. Without the oil they 

 > still filter quite well C certainly well enough for our needs.

 

 I wouldn't buy an engine if I new it had been operated without an adequate 

 air filter.

 

 Again C I am not going to gamble on the life of my engine by not oiling the 

 filter. In addition to the airplane C I also use oiled cotton and oiled foam 

 rubber air filter elements on my ATV and dirt bike. Without the "correct" 

 oil C they probably would not last all day.

 

 There is a difference between the oil used for cotton and foam elements. 

 Best not get them mixed up. Seems the oil for foam elements is quite sticky 

 and thicker than oil used for cotton.

 

 > Finally C do use the K&N solvent for cleaning C tho. A regular solvent will 

 > eventually damage the element....

 

 Again C my own experience and opinions only.

 

 john=======================

 

 

 

Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry Check it out.   	  Quote: 	
		  [b]

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: One Thing At A Time

If gasoline were going to damage cotton fiber,  seems an air filter for gasoline engines would be made of some other  material.  I can assure you, the filter element is getting saturated with  gasoline the entire time the engine is running.

  

 Probably the reason K&N recommends not using  gasoline is the danger of fire.

  

 And, of course, liability.  

  

 What does the Rotax manual say about oiling K&N  cotton filters?

  

 john h

 mkIII

  

  

 [quote]    

   

Regarding filtering “clean air”; I agree with most    everything John has posted. Where I differ from John is; I don’t like to use    gasoline for anything except the fuel tank    

  

 

Kurt

 [b]

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:35 am Post subject: Re: One thing at a time

[quote="williamtsullivan(at)att.n"]Lucien- Please correct me if I'm wrong.  A friend with extensive 2-stroke knowledge told me that oiling the K&N filter is generally unnecessary because a 2-stroke at idle will "chuff" back into the filter, leaving oil. This would not apply to 2-strokes with a reed valve.  If run at low speeds for a while it will become over oiled.  If oiled as per spec, and then run at low speed, it can cause noticable loss of power.  He said what you said- for our usage, clean and don't oil.  Would you agree with this?

  

            ï¿½            ï¿½           ï¿½          Bill Sullivan

            ï¿½            ï¿½           ï¿½          Windsor Locks, Ct.

            ï¿½            ï¿½           ï¿½          FS 447

  	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




My personal experience with the K&N has been that it doesn't need oiling in an aircraft application. Or putting it another way, I'd only oil if I were skilled in the art of just enough but not too much oil. But I'm not and couldn't afford bending metal in the process of learning how. So I don't.



All the oil really does is decrease the size of the particulates the element can filter. It still works as a filter without the oil, but it's not as effective on smaller particulates. It has not been my experience that this is a problem in the air (John disagrees with me on this and I fully respect that and don't discount it).



Ironically, I don't agree tho that the emissions from the carburettors qualify as proper oiling of the filter tho . Yes, the 2-strokes do spit up a fair bit and will eventually goop up the bottom of the filter over time. Mine always did this and I went ahead and cleaned them soon as it started getting kind of oily there.

My 912 is even clearing little spots in the bottom of my new filters already after only about 20 or 30 hours of operation, so the 4 strokes spit up a little as well.



In a _ground_ application, oiling is IMO necessary. I ran K&N's on my motorcycle for a long time and you really need the extra filtering there. It also so happens to not be hazardous to over oil on a ground-based motor, tho it will make a mess and cause problems for a while unless you pull it, reclean and reoil with less oil.



Reed valve 2-strokes spit up a little less than our piston-skirt induction 2-strokes due to the longer duration timing on the induction on those, but they'll still do it a little bit.



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: Re: One Thing At A Time

 	  John Hauck wrote: 	
		  



I think one would get a better idea of how much dirt is getting through the 

filter by checking the inside of the carb and intake manifold, rather than 

the inside of the filter.



john h

mkIII 	




I usually drag fingers in the carburettor throat as well as the filter to check for that very thing (i.e. a leak where the filter attaches to the carburettor body. I've seen that happen and didn't catch it until checking the venturis).



In fact, I have enough hours on my 2 new K&N's that it's time to go pull them and check them for that already..... so this is a good reminder (I also need to pull my bowls and check those as you suggested too...)....



LS

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LS
Titan II SS

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