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John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:29 pm Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

I have a what may seem like a dumb question regarding really short landings.  I've been pushing myself to try to land as short as I can.  I find it a challenge to control the speed at minimum and achieve a decent landing with minimum ground roll.  I consider myself barely an average aviator and have the history to prove it.



I'm down to landing in less than 600 ft over a +80 foot obstacle on grass.  One of the problems is the steep approach at minimum speed and timing the flare.  Gusting winds don't help.  I think what is happening is the wing and flaps are blocking the air at the abrupt flare and robbing some elevator authority making things kinda ugly at times.  My next move is to try a little shot of power to put some air on the elevator for authority.



I liken this to a bird landing on a wire and missing the wire.  Interested in learning others techniques and suggestions.  Don't want to insult anyone, but would like to avoid VG's being the answer.  Technique should be the same to achieve best result with or without VG's.  Sorry bout that.



Again, this is pushing my abilities.  I may have reached my personal limits based on my limited ability.

_________________
Thanks too much,

John Bickham
Mark III-C w/ 912UL
St. Francisville, LA

I know many pilots and a few true aviators. There is a distinct difference that I have the greatest respect for.

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

What's your configuration for landing?  I.e., what flaps, if any, are you using?



  -- Robert

     MkIIIC/912ULS



On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 10:29 PM, John Bickham <gearbender(at)bellsouth.net (gearbender(at)bellsouth.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Bickham" <gearbender(at)bellsouth.net (gearbender(at)bellsouth.net)>

  

 I have a what may seem like a dumb question regarding really short landings.  I've been pushing myself to try to land as short as I can.  I find it a challenge to control the speed at minimum and achieve a decent landing with minimum ground roll.  I consider myself barely an average aviator and have the history to prove it.

  

 I'm down to landing in less than 600 ft over a +80 foot obstacle on grass.  One of the problems is the steep approach at minimum speed and timing the flare.  Gusting winds don't help.  I think what is happening is the wing and flaps are blocking the air at the abrupt flare and robbing some elevator authority making things kinda ugly at times.  My next move is to try a little shot of power to put some air on the elevator for authority.

  

 I liken this to a bird landing on a wire and missing the wire.  Interested in learning others techniques and suggestions.  Don't want to insult anyone, but would like to avoid VG's being the answer.  Technique should be the same to achieve best result with or without VG's.  Sorry bout that.

  

 Again, this is pushing my abilities.  I may have reached my personal limits based on my limited ability.

 

 --------

 Thanks too much,

 

 John Bickham

 Mark III-C w/ 912UL

 St. Francisville, LA

 

 Landing a plane and being married - a few smooth moments mixed with a lot of rough ones.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=239655#239655

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

 	  John Bickham wrote: 	
		  I have a what may seem like a dumb question regarding really short landings.  I've been pushing myself to try to land as short as I can.  I find it a challenge to control the speed at minimum and achieve a decent landing with minimum ground roll.  I consider myself barely an average aviator and have the history to prove it.



I'm down to landing in less than 600 ft over a +80 foot obstacle on grass.  One of the problems is the steep approach at minimum speed and timing the flare.  Gusting winds don't help.  I think what is happening is the wing and flaps are blocking the air at the abrupt flare and robbing some elevator authority making things kinda ugly at times.  My next move is to try a little shot of power to put some air on the elevator for authority.



I liken this to a bird landing on a wire and missing the wire.  Interested in learning others techniques and suggestions.  Don't want to insult anyone, but would like to avoid VG's being the answer.  Technique should be the same to achieve best result with or without VG's.  Sorry bout that.



Again, this is pushing my abilities.  I may have reached my personal limits based on my limited ability. 	




What I do is keep at the ready with the throttle when slow with a high sink rate - throttle becomes the 4th control surface when slow. When you're near stall like this, the altitude for airspeed trade involves more cost in altitude than otherwise if you get into some sudden sink. So you have to be able to add energy back into the equation in those cases to arrest the sink rate but without having to make large reductions in AoA.



So, I'd configure for the short field in the normal way, but adjust the sink rate with the power a little more than you otherwise would to keep from having to speed up. Maintain the low airspeed with the elevator like usual.



Pusher planes have an advantage here in that we can instantly restore elevator/rudder authority by applying power and getting the wind going back over those control surfaces. But it still works in any airplane (even in trikes). 



Carrying a little power into the flare will slow down the energy bleed-off too and thus slow the flare down. This really helped a whole bunch in my FSII, which normally had a pretty quick flare anyway like with any low-intertia plane design. I could still come in slow, but adding a little power right at roundout slowed the flare down enough to make the timing a lot less critical.



It may add a little length to your landing, but you could still get down in something you'd only be able to trailer out of anyway 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

rowedenny

Joined: 09 Mar 2008
Posts: 338
Location: Western PA

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

Clearing an 80 foot obstacle and stoping in less than 600 foot sounds pretty 

damn good to me!

I have a 600 foot strip with one open end, and I never consider coming in 

from the end with the trees.



Denny Rowe, Mk-3, N616DR

---

Ralph B

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Posts: 367
Location: Mound Minnesota

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

rowedenny 	  Quote: 	
		  Clearing an 80 foot obstacle and stoping in less than 600 foot sounds pretty damn good to me! I have a 600 foot strip with one open end, and I never consider coming in from the end with the trees.



Denny Rowe, Mk-3, N616DR

	




I agree. Anyone that can land inside 600 feet over an 80' obstacle is doing  pretty good. You are doing very well John! I have found the shortest landings are power off landings coming in at best glide speed. Anything less than that can ruin a set of landing gear if the flare timing is off.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph B

Kolb Kolbra 912uls
N20386
550 hours

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 6:12 am Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

John,  Your technique sounds good, if you are coming in 80 feet over the trees and stopping in 600 feet, you are doing very well.  You are correct to worry about gusty winds when doing this, a gust that puts you below stall or even right near stall in the flare could result in an accident or very hard landing with damage to your plane.  In commercial aviation we approach at higher speeds when the wind is gusty.



You knew the obvious answer to this question, so I have to ask you why do you want to avoid using VG's ?  You must think there is some downside to them if you want to avoid something that could improve your short field and landing performance so much.  Given the short fields you fly out of, VG's would be a huge help, not just on the wings, but also on the horizontal tail will keep your elevator working during the minimum speed flare you are talking about.  Everything you are talking about, your plane will do much better with VG's.  If you think you might not like them, put them on with double sided auto trim tape and try them, that way if you don't like the results some mineral spirits and time will get them right off.   For just over 100 bucks, and a half a days work, you can do something that has the potential to increase your planes performance by a huge margin, and if you don't like it, you can easily get them off.   Bargains like that don't come along often.



Short field operations without VG's is kind of like a NASCAR driver wanting to race with cheap economy tires, all the driving technique in the world will not be able to make up for the lack of proper equipment.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Bickham

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 170
Location: St. Francisville, LA

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

Thanks for the replies.



Mike - Maybe one day I'll try the VG's.  I'm sure they would improve the low speed performance.  I'm satisfied enough right now with Homer's design.



Sounds like I'm doing better than I thought.  Might be pushing the limit already.  There is little doubt in my mind that I would have bent the original aluminum gear legs already with some of these landings.  The chrome-moly, heat treated, big tire gear I have now absorbs a lot of the energy.  Makes things a little springy at times.  Hard not to bounce a little on hard surfaces, kinda like a citabria.



Next round, will ease in some power just before the flare.  Off-weekend and its raining again.  Arty took the CAVU weather with her!

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

John,



Denny Rowe took the words right out my mouth ! 600 feet over 80' obstacle.....That is pretty dang good pal ! .....are you just trying to show us up????  lol



chris ambrose

m3x-jab

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

 	  ces308 wrote: 	
		  John,



Denny Rowe took the words right out my mouth ! 600 feet over 80' obstacle.....That is pretty dang good pal ! .....are you just trying to show us up????  lol



chris ambrose

m3x-jab 	




Oh yeah, I left that out of my response too - that's pretty phenomenal performance already and your technique sounds just fine as-is if you're shoehorning into 600'.



Only in my quicksilver would that have been relatively easy to do. I doubt I could do that in my titan for sure. My FSII maybe.....



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

 	  Quote: 	
		  



I have a what may seem like a dumb question regarding really short landings.  I've been pushing myself to try to land as short as I can.  I find it a challenge to control the speed at minimum and achieve a decent landing with minimum ground roll.  I consider myself barely an average aviator and have the history to prove it.



I'm down to landing in less than 600 ft over a +80 foot obstacle on grass.  One of the problems is the steep approach at minimum speed and timing the flare.  Gusting winds don't help.  I think what is happening is the wing and flaps are blocking the air at the abrupt flare and robbing some elevator authority making things kinda ugly at times.  My next move is to try a little shot of power to put some air on the elevator for authority.



I liken this to a bird landing on a wire and missing the wire.  Interested in learning others techniques and suggestions.  Don't want to insult anyone, but would like to avoid VG's being the answer.  Technique should be the same to achieve best result with or without VG's.  Sorry bout that.



Again, this is pushing my abilities.  I may have reached my personal limits based on my limited ability.




	


John,



You may want to consider changing your technique.



One can practice steep descents and then apply it to landing.  My problem 

was selecting an alternative landing site and then not being able to get the 

FireFly down in time and thereby over flying the site.  It took a little 

practice but finally I managed it.



I took the FireFly up to about 3,000 feet agl, and applied flaperons, 

reduced power, and pushed the nose over to see how quickly I was falling out 

of the sky.  I never let the ias get below 50 mph.  Then I did the same 

thing again with a forward slip.  It is truly amazing how quickly you can 

get down and one can vary the rate by pushing the stick forward and 

increasing the air speed.



Once I got used to this, I went back to the airport and practiced flaring at 

given spot on the runway.  The advantage of this method is that you are 

never anywhere close to stall speed.  It lets you change slope with stick 

for and backwards motion and to clear an obstacles with out fear of stalling.  

Just before flaring, you back off the rudder and all power and you are down. 



FWIW



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:24 am Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

The advantage of this method is that you are never anywhere close to stall 

speed. >>



Hi

How do you know?. If you are slipping your ASI is probably useless as the 

airflow will be across the pitot. The airflow will be sideways along the 

wing as well and therefore not giving as much lift as you perhaps expect.

With so little side area is it worth sideslipping anyway?  In my Challenger 

she would slip like a banshee and fall out of the sky, but I always kept the 

speed up but with the Kolb it doesn`t seem to make mush difference.

Maybe I should do some serious measurements >The vario should work correctly 

??



Pat

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

Pat,

   Am I assuming correctly,that a vario is a rate of climb or descent  instrument?

    Thanks G Aman 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

lucien

Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 721
Location: santa fe, NM

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

 	  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com wrote: 	
		  The advantage of this method is that you are never anywhere close to stall 

speed. >>



Hi

How do you know?. If you are slipping your ASI is probably useless as the 

airflow will be across the pitot. The airflow will be sideways along the 

wing as well and therefore not giving as much lift as you perhaps expect.

With so little side area is it worth sideslipping anyway?  In my Challenger 

she would slip like a banshee and fall out of the sky, but I always kept the 

speed up but with the Kolb it doesn`t seem to make mush difference.

Maybe I should do some serious measurements >The vario should work correctly 

??



Pat 	




Well remember, stall is determined by angle of attack, not airspeed. This is why we can still fly an airplane in a slip or without an working ASI - you still have to practice AoA maintenance to avoid a stall in a slip also just like at other times. 



So I'd say Jack is right. The forward slip is a good way to add drag for steepening a descent without building up too much airspeed (a poor man's flaps). 



But I will agree that slips in the Kolb don't add a whole bunch more drag like they do in some other planes. I slipped my FS II a bunch but didn't find it to really steepen the descent that much. But it did work so I used it in the rare event I was actually too high on final.



If you really want drag, install a C box and the rk-400 clutch. Talk about flaps..... the windmilling prop  when you back down to idle is like deploying the BRS, you come down and steep too...... 



LS

_________________
LS
Titan II SS

cristalclear13

Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 363
Location: Southeast Georgia

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

 	  jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne wrote: 	
		  The idea is to dirty up the plane.  That is why you add flaperon and forward 

slip.  Adding flaperon increases both the lift and drag coefficients and 

reduces stall speed.  The forward slip increases drag and decreases lift.  

The trick is to find the flaperon setting that gives you the highest rate of 

controllable descent.



There is no way to stall the FireFly at 50 mphi unless you intentionally 

stall it by jerking the stick back.  In a forward slip, the airspeed 

indicator will read slow so if it indicates 50 mph you are actually going 

faster and so it increases the margin of safety.  The important thing is to 

keep the power off so that one can steepen the descent. 



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN 	




Jack,



I was mostly trained in a Cessna 150 but my instructor would slap my hand if I did a slip with the flaps down.  Do one or the other, but not both.



I don't have flaps in my Kolb Mark II, so that's not an option for me anyways.



If we're having an emergency, well we're probably in danger anyways so it may be worth the potential danger that the combination brings, but if it's just because our approach is off, then go around and do the right approach.  May be well worth the extra gas and time it takes!



If one insists on trying it or being familiar with it in case of an emergency, then get with an instructor first and make sure you are performing it as safely as possible.

_________________
Cristal Waters
Kolb Mark II Twinstar Rotax 503 DCSI Sept 2007 - sold Sept 2012
Private Pilot Aug 2008
ELSA Repairman for N193Y April 2008
Rotax 2 stroke maintenance April 2009

zeprep251(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

Let me add one thing to this thread.

                             The most effective change I made to effect shorter landings was to decrease engine idle speed to less than 1800 rpm( that was with a 3 blade IVO ),on the 503 with a b box,2.58/1.

 

    G Aman Former FS 2 driver

 

   

 

 --

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

Remember...an airplane will fly slower under power than without power....



chris ambrose

m3x-jab

mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

> Remember...an airplane will fly slower under power than without power....

> 

 	  Quote: 	
		   chris ambrose

 m3x-jab


	


   Chris C

  

    While that point may be true in flight C it ceases to work once you've touched down.

 I faster spinning prop will not help to slow down quicker than a slow spinning prop.  (unless C of course C you have beta mode)

  

 Mike Welch

 MkIII

Rediscover Hotmail®: Now available on your iPhone or BlackBerry Check it out.

ces308

Joined: 03 Nov 2008
Posts: 317
Location: houghton lake ,mi

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: Dumb short short landing technique question

....I'm sorry...I thought we were slowing the plane down in the air to land...yes ..when you are on the ground,pull the throtle back..



chris ambrose

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:34 am Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

The important thing is to

 	  Quote: 	
		   keep the power off so that one can steepen the descent. >>


	


If you haven`t got the throttle closed what is the point of slipping?  The 

easiest way to lose height is close the throttle.Slipping, Falling leaves 

etc  come next.



Who ever made the comment about long controlled approaches was dead right. 

If you lose the engine in that position you have no options. Fly to the 

point ,and height, where you have the field made with no power and then 

close the throttle to idle.  If you are too close then slip.



Pat

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:40 am Post subject: Dumb short short landing technique question

This is why we can still fly an airplane in a slip or without an working 

ASI - you still have to practice AoA maintenance to avoid a stall in a slip 

also just like at other times.>>



Hi Lucien,



quite right of course but part of my comment was that you are not generating 

the lift which you might expect because the air is not flowing straight from 

the leading to trailing edge but is taking a diagonal path across the wing. 

Of course it can be done but it just needs watching, and practicing.



Pat

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