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John Vormbaum
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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 Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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Wow, I guess us agnostics, atheists, Buddhist and absurdists are completely doomed. 9,000,000 Muslims in America? That's 2.8%. Yeah...perhaps we should restart the Crusades. After all, it did such wonderful things for all parties the first time around. Plus, things are going great in Iraq & Afghanistan. Why not expand? That's sarcasm, by the way.
The beauty of America is that immigrants are only what they are for the original generation. Fashion clothing, the Mall, and capitalism have a wonderful way of making all their children American. It becomes very very hard to convince them that they're better off shrugging off western culture & moving back to the sandbox and living in stone-age conditions. Those kids would probably die if they weren't within walking distance of a Starbucks.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:47 PM
To: 'art la combe'
Subject: It is time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
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nico(at)cybersuperstore.c
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| Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 11:04 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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John,
There is a lot of truth in what you are saying. No one can deny that. But, if the doctrine that made this country great, practiced by agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, and all others who wanted to pursue the American dream, is threatened by a theocratic model, all should be very worried. And that is what this article was about. The Judeo/Christian economic model is the only doctrine in the history of man that provides liberty and general wealth for all who practice it. Never, ever has there been such a successful model. Does that mean one has to be a Christian or a Jew to practice it? No, emphatically, no. Demanding that one has to be a Christian or a Jew to be an American is the injustice perpetrated against the people of this country, and around the world, that would in the end cost us that liberty and general wealth. Many of the founding fathers were luke-warm (if at all) Christians, but they recognized the value of the Judeo/Christian doctrine. This principle of doctrines is no different than the laws of the land, which is a doctrine which has its believers and its practitioners-without-belief. The law doesn't care whether one believes it or not, it will punish its transgressors. Oppose that to the Judeo/Christian model who has threats and rewards embedded in it, but the unbelievers do not believe in that model's God anyway, so the threats are meaningless to them; but the material rewards are real and measurable for those who practice it, contrary to Islam.
I, for one, practice the California Vehicle Code-doctrine, but I don't believe that driving slower on the freeway is necessarily safer, so I don't - in a manner that evades prosecution. If I said I believe it and drive the way I do, I'll be rightly called a hypocrite. Practicing the Judeo/Christian economic model is no different. You don't have to believe in it; all you have to do is believe that it is what it says it is. Do the same with Islam, believe what it says it is and it will scare you out of your wits. Agnostics, atheists, and other non-Christians may practice the virtues of the Judeo/Christian doctrine, but it is not required that they believe in the law of Moses or that Jesus Christ is their personal savior to reap the benefits inherent in its practice.
However, when a doctrine becomes as popular as Islam has, and that by misleading prospects, and by the threat of violence or death upon dissention, which is clearly pitted against the virtues of the Judeo/Christian doctrine; and which has its roots in having their believers living in nothing more than a sandbox by the grace of the clerics who reap the rewards, then you and I have to be extremely concerned.
You mention the Crusades. You could also cite the Inquisition. To understand what happened there, you have to look at the doctrine which those folks followed. They were not adhering to the Judeo/Christian model. Similarly, Roman Catholics have their own doctrines alongside the Bible, church tradition and the Magisterium; not saying that believers in the RC doctrine are not Christians. That means they found ways in which to exercise veto power over the doctrine that is known as the Judeo/Christian economic model and it's clear in their elitist hierarchy that the wealth is intended to be removed from the 'layety' and passed on to the elitists, acting as pseudo deities. The rights and property of the people are usurped for the sustenance of the elitist class, which destroys liberty and general wealth. That's not according to the Judeo/Christian doctrine which is found in the Bible alone, without any qualifications or additions. Anyone, believer and unbeliever in any doctrine, should be able to look at a doctrine and distinguish between the believers and the practitioners. The practitioners of Islam that have become westernized, are not real muslims. It is the believers who will come and kill them for their dissent and it is this group that is growing more rapidly than any other. It is all in the doctrine.
Just my take on it.
Thanks for indulging me.
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 5:00 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: It is time...
Wow, I guess us agnostics, atheists, Buddhist and absurdists are completely doomed. 9,000,000 Muslims in America? That's 2.8%. Yeah...perhaps we should restart the Crusades. After all, it did such wonderful things for all parties the first time around. Plus, things are going great in Iraq & Afghanistan. Why not expand? That's sarcasm, by the way.
The beauty of America is that immigrants are only what they are for the original generation. Fashion clothing, the Mall, and capitalism have a wonderful way of making all their children American. It becomes very very hard to convince them that they're better off shrugging off western culture & moving back to the sandbox and living in stone-age conditions. Those kids would probably die if they weren't within walking distance of a Starbucks.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:47 PM
To: 'art la combe'
Subject: It is time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
[quote]
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bobf(at)feldtman.com
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 2:54 am Post subject: It is time... |
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perfect explanation.
bobf
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 2:01 AM, nico css <nico(at)cybersuperstore.com (nico(at)cybersuperstore.com)> wrote:
[quote] John,
There is a lot of truth in what you are saying. No one can deny that. But, if the doctrine that made this country great, practiced by agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, and all others who wanted to pursue the American dream, is threatened by a theocratic model, all should be very worried. And that is what this article was about. The Judeo/Christian economic model is the only doctrine in the history of man that provides liberty and general wealth for all who practice it. Never, ever has there been such a successful model. Does that mean one has to be a Christian or a Jew to practice it? No, emphatically, no. Demanding that one has to be a Christian or a Jew to be an American is the injustice perpetrated against the people of this country, and around the world, that would in the end cost us that liberty and general wealth. Many of the founding fathers were luke-warm (if at all) Christians, but they recognized the value of the Judeo/Christian doctrine. This principle of doctrines is no different than the laws of the land, which is a doctrine which has its believers and its practitioners-without-belief. The law doesn't care whether one believes it or not, it will punish its transgressors. Oppose that to the Judeo/Christian model who has threats and rewards embedded in it, but the unbelievers do not believe in that model's God anyway, so the threats are meaningless to them; but the material rewards are real and measurable for those who practice it, contrary to Islam.
I, for one, practice the California Vehicle Code-doctrine, but I don't believe that driving slower on the freeway is necessarily safer, so I don't - in a manner that evades prosecution. If I said I believe it and drive the way I do, I'll be rightly called a hypocrite. Practicing the Judeo/Christian economic model is no different. You don't have to believe in it; all you have to do is believe that it is what it says it is. Do the same with Islam, believe what it says it is and it will scare you out of your wits. Agnostics, atheists, and other non-Christians may practice the virtues of the Judeo/Christian doctrine, but it is not required that they believe in the law of Moses or that Jesus Christ is their personal savior to reap the benefits inherent in its practice.
However, when a doctrine becomes as popular as Islam has, and that by misleading prospects, and by the threat of violence or death upon dissention, which is clearly pitted against the virtues of the Judeo/Christian doctrine; and which has its roots in having their believers living in nothing more than a sandbox by the grace of the clerics who reap the rewards, then you and I have to be extremely concerned.
You mention the Crusades. You could also cite the Inquisition. To understand what happened there, you have to look at the doctrine which those folks followed. They were not adhering to the Judeo/Christian model. Similarly, Roman Catholics have their own doctrines alongside the Bible, church tradition and the Magisterium; not saying that believers in the RC doctrine are not Christians. That means they found ways in which to exercise veto power over the doctrine that is known as the Judeo/Christian economic model and it's clear in their elitist hierarchy that the wealth is intended to be removed from the 'layety' and passed on to the elitists, acting as pseudo deities. The rights and property of the people are usurped for the sustenance of the elitist class, which destroys liberty and general wealth. That's not according to the Judeo/Christian doctrine which is found in the Bible alone, without any qualifications or additions. Anyone, believer and unbeliever in any doctrine, should be able to look at a doctrine and distinguish between the believers and the practitioners. The practitioners of Islam that have become westernized, are not real muslims. It is the believers who will come and kill them for their dissent and it is this group that is growing more rapidly than any other. It is all in the doctrine.
Just my take on it.
Thanks for indulging me.
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 5:00 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com (commander-list(at)matronics.com)
Subject: RE: It is time...
Wow, I guess us agnostics, atheists, Buddhist and absurdists are completely doomed. 9,000,000 Muslims in America? That's 2.8%. Yeah...perhaps we should restart the Crusades. After all, it did such wonderful things for all parties the first time around. Plus, things are going great in Iraq & Afghanistan. Why not expand? That's sarcasm, by the way.
The beauty of America is that immigrants are only what they are for the original generation. Fashion clothing, the Mall, and capitalism have a wonderful way of making all their children American. It becomes very very hard to convince them that they're better off shrugging off western culture & moving back to the sandbox and living in stone-age conditions. Those kids would probably die if they weren't within walking distance of a Starbucks.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:47 PM
To: 'art la combe'
Subject: It is time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
[b]
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n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 5:11 am Post subject: Re: It is time... |
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| Code: | The beauty of America is that immigrants are only what they are for the original generation. Fashion clothing, the Mall, and capitalism have a wonderful way of making all their children American. It becomes very very hard to convince them that they're better off shrugging off western culture & moving back to the sandbox and living in stone-age conditions. Those kids would probably die if they weren't within walking distance of a Starbucks.
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That has historically been true. The experience in several Europeon countries, however, has been the oppositte.
The Muslim enclaves have grown and remained separate for several generations to the opoint where governments are promulgatin laws to accommodate strictly Muslim needs and wants into their society.
The American Muslim population is not, however, the greatest and most imminent threat to the United States.
The most imminent threat to our way of life is the United States Government itself, the elected officials, the lifetime civil servants etc.
I am not talking Repub vs Democrat here. For much of our history the 2 party system has worked well with most citizens and elected officials being slightly left or right of center.
Today we find both parties controlled by the extreme left or extreme right.
The current dem government if left unchecked will turn the US into a socialist state by the end of obamas second term.
The GOP is paralyzed by the agenda of its far right wing nut jobs. Given the current attitudes in the GOP it is unlikely they will be able to gain enough power to stop the current government. Iam not so sure life under them would be any better. Socialism is probably preferable to an intolerant tyranny.
We need a Crusade all right but it needs to be a Crusade against our elected officials fo9r they are the true enemy of our way of life.
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Milt |
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kamala(at)MSN.COM
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 6:21 am Post subject: It is time... |
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amen. gmc
[quote] Subject: Re: It is time...
From: Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com
Date: Tue C 5 May 2009 06:11:49 -0700
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
--> Commander-List message posted by: "N395V" <Bearcat(at)bearcataviation.com>
The beauty of America is that immigrants are only what they are for the original generation. Fashion clothing C the Mall C and capitalism have a wonderful way of making all their children American. It becomes very very hard to convince them that they're better off shrugging off western culture & moving back to the sandbox and living in stone-age conditions. Those kids would probably die if they weren't within walking distance of a Starbucks.
That has historically been true. The experience in several Europeon countries C however C has been the oppositte.
The Muslim enclaves have grown and remained separate for several generations to the opoint where governments are promulgatin laws to accommodate strictly Muslim needs and wants into their society.
The American Muslim population is not C however C the greatest and most imminent threat to the United States.
The most imminent threat to our way of life is the United States Government itself C the elected officials C the lifetime civil servants etc.
I am not talking Repub vs Democrat here. For much of our history the 2 party system has worked well with most citizens and elected officials being slightly left or right of center.
Today we find both parties controlled by the extreme left or extreme right.
The current dem government if left unchecked will turn the US into a socialist state by the end of obamas second term.
The GOP is paralyzed by the agenda of its far right wing nut jobs. Given the current attitudes in the GOP it is unlikely they will be able to gain enough power to stop the current government. Iam not so sure life under them would be any better. Socialism is probably preferable to an intolerant tyranny.
We need a Crusade all right but it needs to be a Crusade against our elected officials fo9r they are the true enemy of our way of life.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=242774#242774
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WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: It is time... |
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Milt , You are right about the biggest threat being our government! We need to vote ALL of them out and start over. If they have been in congress more than eight years,vote them out. My biggest concern, is that our population of those that want entitlements, has exceeded we that want "Common Sense" government. Even if we vote them out, that population now out number us. WE have become the MINORITY and will NOT be able to vote them out. So , what is the solution to save this country short of a revelotion? If the current Administration has their way , they will try to get our guns and control all of the financial institutions as well.I have always been optomistic but I don`t feel that way anymore.What the government has done to this country , is CRIMINAL! Gil
A Good Credit Score is 700 or67171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=115%26bcd=May5509AvgfooterNO115>See yours in just 2 easy steps!
[quote][b]
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brcamp(at)windows.microso
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: It is time... |
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I think you have to make a distinction between Islam the religion and Islam the political movement, or Islamism. Remember the most people killed so far by the Islamists have been other Muslims. The thing that makes a large Muslim population frightening is that so far, for a variety of reasons, “moderate muslims” have chosen (for their own safety) not to publicly do battle with the Islamists.
The probable solution is to encourage the mainstreaming of muslims in our society in the same way that jews (or mormons for that matter) are welcomed, by and large. The US and western society in general, isn’t about a national or religious identify, so much as a set of principles that we all adhere to (play fair, respect the other kids property, no hitting, do unto others, etc). But in order to do so we need confidently offer our own vision.
The problem *does* come from within, but the Obamunistas are just a side effect. I don’t think it is the government per se, so much as the “culture”. We have, as a society allowed ourselves to be propagandized into abandoning the idea that we are the Good Guys. Its an irony that while the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are singing our praises as liberators, even though they were suspicious of our motives, (they could imagine why we were doing what we were doing, and couldn’t believe we were fighting for right and liberty until later they realized we were serious.) that this society movies and TV live on a nonstop diet of “evil CIA men”, “insane, sadistic, soldiers”, “psychopathic abusive fathers”, etc. that in no way represent even unusual examples of our society, confronting pure noble terrorist who just want Goodness to win (Goodness isn’t, us, BTW).
Our schools teach a curriculum that could be described as “America: Bad Idea, or Horrible Mistake”. Apparently as soon as we got independent, we deliberately gave the Indians blankets infected with smallpox to kill them. Even though we didn’t know about what caused smallpox until the 1860’s. Then industrialization caused America to enslave all the workers who labored with their children without pay in coal mines while starving. This continued until we started all of the wars, and then there was a beautiful growth of socialism (“caring”) that started when Franklin Rooseveldt freed the slaves, and continued until Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan and George Bush started all the wars again (they were Republicans, and you know they love to do that). Of course, they were opposed by peace-loving people everywhere iInsert picture of Jane Fonda with Ho Chi Minh).
In these books, we only hear a little bit about what America stands for, and usually in a very distorted way. For example “All men are created Equal” is usually described as saying “it isn’t right that some people get more than others”, and the Constitution is only referenced as a source of “rights” that it guarantees for example, the right to free TV and free health care. Free speech means pornography is protected, but not that you can say anything “mean” about people in office, that just wouldn’t be right unless they are “evil war mongers” , ie Republicans.
When we can get things like that under control, it will be relatively straightforward to fix the government and live in harmony with whatever religious minority.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:08 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: It is time...
Milt , You are right about the biggest threat being our government! We need to vote ALL of them out and start over. If they have been in congress more than eight years,vote them out. My biggest concern, is that our population of those that want entitlements, has exceeded we that want "Common Sense" government. Even if we vote them out, that population now out number us. WE have become the MINORITY and will NOT be able to vote them out. So , what is the solution to save this country short of a revelotion? If the current Administration has their way , they will try to get our guns and control all of the financial institutions as well.I have always been optomistic but I don`t feel that way anymore.What the government has done to this country , is CRIMINAL! Gil
A Good Credit Score is 700 or67171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=115%26bcd=May5509AvgfooterNO115>See yours in just 2 easy steps! | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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John Vormbaum
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:51 am Post subject: It is time... |
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Hi Nico,
That's a compelling take on things. You are far more versed in the various religions than I am. Raised in an agnostic household (but baptized Presbyterian and growing up under the basic Judeo/Christian tenets that you mention) I had very little focused exposure to religious studies. My post was essentially a knee-jerk reaction to more propaganda. I'm pro-2nd Amendment in a big way; I could probably be labeled a lightweight paranoid...but I don't advocate war or genocide. The next few years are going to be very interesting, I think (isn't that a Buddhist curse, may you live in interesting times?). I find myself unable to predict a resolution.
Thanks for clarifying your point of view. As much as this is a forum for Commanders, I continually find myself exposed to other very interesting material
Cheers,
/John
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:01 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: It is time...
John,
There is a lot of truth in what you are saying. No one can deny that. But, if the doctrine that made this country great, practiced by agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, and all others who wanted to pursue the American dream, is threatened by a theocratic model, all should be very worried. And that is what this article was about. The Judeo/Christian economic model is the only doctrine in the history of man that provides liberty and general wealth for all who practice it. Never, ever has there been such a successful model. Does that mean one has to be a Christian or a Jew to practice it? No, emphatically, no. Demanding that one has to be a Christian or a Jew to be an American is the injustice perpetrated against the people of this country, and around the world, that would in the end cost us that liberty and general wealth. Many of the founding fathers were luke-warm (if at all) Christians, but they recognized the value of the Judeo/Christian doctrine. This principle of doctrines is no different than the laws of the land, which is a doctrine which has its believers and its practitioners-without-belief. The law doesn't care whether one believes it or not, it will punish its transgressors. Oppose that to the Judeo/Christian model who has threats and rewards embedded in it, but the unbelievers do not believe in that model's God anyway, so the threats are meaningless to them; but the material rewards are real and measurable for those who practice it, contrary to Islam.
I, for one, practice the California Vehicle Code-doctrine, but I don't believe that driving slower on the freeway is necessarily safer, so I don't - in a manner that evades prosecution. If I said I believe it and drive the way I do, I'll be rightly called a hypocrite. Practicing the Judeo/Christian economic model is no different. You don't have to believe in it; all you have to do is believe that it is what it says it is. Do the same with Islam, believe what it says it is and it will scare you out of your wits. Agnostics, atheists, and other non-Christians may practice the virtues of the Judeo/Christian doctrine, but it is not required that they believe in the law of Moses or that Jesus Christ is their personal savior to reap the benefits inherent in its practice.
However, when a doctrine becomes as popular as Islam has, and that by misleading prospects, and by the threat of violence or death upon dissention, which is clearly pitted against the virtues of the Judeo/Christian doctrine; and which has its roots in having their believers living in nothing more than a sandbox by the grace of the clerics who reap the rewards, then you and I have to be extremely concerned.
You mention the Crusades. You could also cite the Inquisition. To understand what happened there, you have to look at the doctrine which those folks followed. They were not adhering to the Judeo/Christian model. Similarly, Roman Catholics have their own doctrines alongside the Bible, church tradition and the Magisterium; not saying that believers in the RC doctrine are not Christians. That means they found ways in which to exercise veto power over the doctrine that is known as the Judeo/Christian economic model and it's clear in their elitist hierarchy that the wealth is intended to be removed from the 'layety' and passed on to the elitists, acting as pseudo deities. The rights and property of the people are usurped for the sustenance of the elitist class, which destroys liberty and general wealth. That's not according to the Judeo/Christian doctrine which is found in the Bible alone, without any qualifications or additions. Anyone, believer and unbeliever in any doctrine, should be able to look at a doctrine and distinguish between the believers and the practitioners. The practitioners of Islam that have become westernized, are not real muslims. It is the believers who will come and kill them for their dissent and it is this group that is growing more rapidly than any other. It is all in the doctrine.
Just my take on it.
Thanks for indulging me.
Nico
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 5:00 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: It is time...
Wow, I guess us agnostics, atheists, Buddhist and absurdists are completely doomed. 9,000,000 Muslims in America? That's 2.8%. Yeah...perhaps we should restart the Crusades. After all, it did such wonderful things for all parties the first time around. Plus, things are going great in Iraq & Afghanistan. Why not expand? That's sarcasm, by the way.
The beauty of America is that immigrants are only what they are for the original generation. Fashion clothing, the Mall, and capitalism have a wonderful way of making all their children American. It becomes very very hard to convince them that they're better off shrugging off western culture & moving back to the sandbox and living in stone-age conditions. Those kids would probably die if they weren't within walking distance of a Starbucks.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of nico css
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 4:47 PM
To: 'art la combe'
Subject: It is time...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
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n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: Re: It is time... |
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| Quote: | | what is the solution to save this country short of a revolotion? |
I used to think the Northwest militia movement were nutjobs but now I understand where they are coming from. I think you are correct in that the entitled outnumber the workers and innovators.
I think if Texas ever really secedes from the union I will move there.
I vision one day the US consisting of New England and California while the remaining states become the new Confederacy.
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Milt |
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John Vormbaum
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: It is time... |
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Milt,
I agree completely. The last 16 years have seen unprecedented growth in
government, which is surprising given that there have been both rep & dem
administrations. I am a true Federalist; I think gov't. should be kept as
small as possible. We are indeed outnumbered by those feeling entitled.
I notice the common thread in my posts is that I am unable to offer
solutions. I don't know that both parties moving more to the center will
solve it. I know for sure that staying to the far right or left won't. I
have to assume that public opinion is like a pendulum, swinging with
regularity between poles. WWI, Roaring 20's, FDR, WWII, McCarthyism, Free
Love, etc. etc. I guess we're in a far left phase now, although there are
some peculiarities (like how gun control has become a no-start for the
dems). I imagine that pendulum will stay to the left for at least another 3
years.
/J
--
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John Vormbaum
Joined: 21 Aug 2006
Posts: 273
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: It is time... |
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|
Wow, great posts this morning. I've never seen this much typing out of the Commander-list membership ever!
| Quote: | usually in a very distorted way. For example “All men are created Equal” is usually described as saying “it isn’t right that some people get more than others”
|
Bruce, your above quote absolutely nails the current problem with the views of the American public at present. It appears to me that many think there is actually an amendment guaranteeing the right to a large flatscreen TV.
/J
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:10 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: It is time...
I think you have to make a distinction between Islam the religion and Islam the political movement, or Islamism. Remember the most people killed so far by the Islamists have been other Muslims. The thing that makes a large Muslim population frightening is that so far, for a variety of reasons, “moderate muslims” have chosen (for their own safety) not to publicly do battle with the Islamists.
The probable solution is to encourage the mainstreaming of muslims in our society in the same way that jews (or mormons for that matter) are welcomed, by and large. The US and western society in general, isn’t about a national or religious identify, so much as a set of principles that we all adhere to (play fair, respect the other kids property, no hitting, do unto others, etc). But in order to do so we need confidently offer our own vision.
The problem *does* come from within, but the Obamunistas are just a side effect. I don’t think it is the government per se, so much as the “culture”. We have, as a society allowed ourselves to be propagandized into abandoning the idea that we are the Good Guys. Its an irony that while the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are singing our praises as liberators, even though they were suspicious of our motives, (they could imagine why we were doing what we were doing, and couldn’t believe we were fighting for right and liberty until later they realized we were serious.) that this society movies and TV live on a nonstop diet of “evil CIA men”, “insane, sadistic, soldiers”, “psychopathic abusive fathers”, etc. that in no way represent even unusual examples of our society, confronting pure noble terrorist who just want Goodness to win (Goodness isn’t, us, BTW).
Our schools teach a curriculum that could be described as “America: Bad Idea, or Horrible Mistake”. Apparently as soon as we got independent, we deliberately gave the Indians blankets infected with smallpox to kill them. Even though we didn’t know about what caused smallpox until the 1860’s. Then industrialization caused America to enslave all the workers who labored with their children without pay in coal mines while starving. This continued until we started all of the wars, and then there was a beautiful growth of socialism (“caring”) that started when Franklin Rooseveldt freed the slaves, and continued until Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan and George Bush started all the wars again (they were Republicans, and you know they love to do that). Of course, they were opposed by peace-loving people everywhere iInsert picture of Jane Fonda with Ho Chi Minh).
In these books, we only hear a little bit about what America stands for, and usually in a very distorted way. For example “All men are created Equal” is usually described as saying “it isn’t right that some people get more than others”, and the Constitution is only referenced as a source of “rights” that it guarantees for example, the right to free TV and free health care. Free speech means pornography is protected, but not that you can say anything “mean” about people in office, that just wouldn’t be right unless they are “evil war mongers” , ie Republicans.
When we can get things like that under control, it will be relatively straightforward to fix the government and live in harmony with whatever religious minority.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:08 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: It is time...
Milt , You are right about the biggest threat being our government! We need to vote ALL of them out and start over. If they have been in congress more than eight years,vote them out. My biggest concern, is that our population of those that want entitlements, has exceeded we that want "Common Sense" government. Even if we vote them out, that population now out number us. WE have become the MINORITY and will NOT be able to vote them out. So , what is the solution to save this country short of a revelotion? If the current Administration has their way , they will try to get our guns and control all of the financial institutions as well.I have always been optomistic but I don`t feel that way anymore.What the government has done to this country , is CRIMINAL! Gil
A Good Credit Score is 700 or67171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=115%26bcd=May5509AvgfooterNO115>See yours in just 2 easy steps! | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
0123456789
0 [quote][b]
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jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 12:54 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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Milt,
Go to this site, you may want to move here any way.
Jim A
riginal Message-----
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com
[mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:52 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: It is time...
| Quote: | what is the solution to save this country short of a revolotion?
|
I used to think the Northwest militia movement were nutjobs but now I
understand where they are coming from. I think you are correct in that the
entitled outnumber the workers and innovators.
I think if Texas ever really secedes from the union I will move there.
I vision one day the US consisting of New England and California while the
remaining states become the new Confederacy.
--------
Milt
2003 F1 Rocket
2006 Radial Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 42796#242796
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jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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I always heard that God created man and Smith & Wesson made them equal.
Pardon my insert.
Jim A
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Vormbaum
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:01 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: It is time...
Wow, great posts this morning. I've never seen this much typing out of the Commander-list membership ever!
| Quote: |
usually in a very distorted way. For example “All men are created Equal” is usually described as saying “it isn’t right that some people get more than others” |
Bruce, your above quote absolutely nails the current problem with the views of the American public at present. It appears to me that many think there is actually an amendment guaranteeing the right to a large flatscreen TV.
/J
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Campbell
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:10 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: It is time...
I think you have to make a distinction between Islam the religion and Islam the political movement, or Islamism. Remember the most people killed so far by the Islamists have been other Muslims. The thing that makes a large Muslim population frightening is that so far, for a variety of reasons, “moderate muslims” have chosen (for their own safety) not to publicly do battle with the Islamists.
The probable solution is to encourage the mainstreaming of muslims in our society in the same way that jews (or mormons for that matter) are welcomed, by and large. The US and western society in general, isn’t about a national or religious identify, so much as a set of principles that we all adhere to (play fair, respect the other kids property, no hitting, do unto others, etc). But in order to do so we need confidently offer our own vision.
The problem *does* come from within, but the Obamunistas are just a side effect. I don’t think it is the government per se, so much as the “culture”. We have, as a society allowed ourselves to be propagandized into abandoning the idea that we are the Good Guys. Its an irony that while the people of Iraq and Afghanistan are singing our praises as liberators, even though they were suspicious of our motives, (they could imagine why we were doing what we were doing, and couldn’t believe we were fighting for right and liberty until later they realized we were serious.) that this society movies and TV live on a nonstop diet of “evil CIA men”, “insane, sadistic, soldiers”, “psychopathic abusive fathers”, etc. that in no way represent even unusual examples of our society, confronting pure noble terrorist who just want Goodness to win (Goodness isn’t, us, BTW).
Our schools teach a curriculum that could be described as “America: Bad Idea, or Horrible Mistake”. Apparently as soon as we got independent, we deliberately gave the Indians blankets infected with smallpox to kill them. Even though we didn’t know about what caused smallpox until the 1860’s. Then industrialization caused America to enslave all the workers who labored with their children without pay in coal mines while starving. This continued until we started all of the wars, and then there was a beautiful growth of socialism (“caring”) that started when Franklin Rooseveldt freed the slaves, and continued until Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan and George Bush started all the wars again (they were Republicans, and you know they love to do that). Of course, they were opposed by peace-loving people everywhere iInsert picture of Jane Fonda with Ho Chi Minh).
In these books, we only hear a little bit about what America stands for, and usually in a very distorted way. For example “All men are created Equal” is usually described as saying “it isn’t right that some people get more than others”, and the Constitution is only referenced as a source of “rights” that it guarantees for example, the right to free TV and free health care. Free speech means pornography is protected, but not that you can say anything “mean” about people in office, that just wouldn’t be right unless they are “evil war mongers” , ie Republicans.
When we can get things like that under control, it will be relatively straightforward to fix the government and live in harmony with whatever religious minority.
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of WINGFLYER1(at)aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:08 AM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Re: It is time...
Milt , You are right about the biggest threat being our government! We need to vote ALL of them out and start over. If they have been in congress more than eight years,vote them out. My biggest concern, is that our population of those that want entitlements, has exceeded we that want "Common Sense" government. Even if we vote them out, that population now out number us. WE have become the MINORITY and will NOT be able to vote them out. So , what is the solution to save this country short of a revelotion? If the current Administration has their way , they will try to get our guns and control all of the financial institutions as well.I have always been optomistic but I don`t feel that way anymore.What the government has done to this country , is CRIMINAL! Gil
A Good Credit Score is 700 or67171/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=115%26bcd=May5509AvgfooterNO115>See yours in just 2 easy steps! | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Commander-List |
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[quote][b]
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n8zg(at)mchsi.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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Close, Jim –
God created all men; Sam Colt made them equal.
Neal
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 4:19 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: It is time...
I always heard that God created man and Smith & Wesson made them equal.
Pardon my insert.
Jim A
[quote][b]
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jtaddington(at)verizon.ne
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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I knew it was one of those guys but a good Smith & Wesson will sure help.
Jim
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Neal George
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:58 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: It is time...
Close, Jim –
God created all men; Sam Colt made them equal.
Neal
From: owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-commander-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Addington
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 4:19 PM
To: commander-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: RE: Re: It is time...
I always heard that God created man and Smith & Wesson made them equal.
Pardon my insert.
Jim A 0123456789
[quote][b]
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tylor.hall(at)sbcglobal.n
Guest
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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"My airplane is protected by Smith and Wesson"
Bumper sticker
Tylor Hall
On May 5, 2009, at 9:54 PM, Jim Addington wrote:
[quote][b]
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dongirod
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 140
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 8:25 pm Post subject: It is time... |
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I have always heard that Mr. Colt made all men equal, BUT, that my insurances agents are Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson.
Don
[quote] ---
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dowens(at)aerialviewpoint
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: It is time... |
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"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I
hope you'll join with me as we try to change it."
- Barack Obama
History Unfolding
I am a student of history. Professionally, I have written 15 books on
history that have been published in six languages, and I have studied
history all my life. I have come to think there is something monumentally
large afoot, and I do not believe it is simply a banking crisis, or a
mortgage crisis, or a credit crisis. Yes these exist, but they are merely
single facets on a very large gemstone that is only now coming into a
sharper focus.
Something of historic proportions is happening. I can sense it because I
know how it feels, smells, what it looks like, and how people react to it..
Yes, a perfect storm may be brewing, but there is something happening within
our country that has been evolving for about ten to fifteen years. The pace
has dramatically quickened in the past two.
We demand and then codify into law the requirement that our banks make
massive loans to people we know they can never pay back? Why?
(JCS: Re above and below, I say in order to severlywound our country and
our economy, and reduce our will to resist.)
We learned just days ago that the Federal Reserve, which has little or no
real oversight by anyone, has "loaned" two trillion dollars (that is
$2,000,000,000,000) over the past few months, but will not tell us to whom
or why or disclose the terms. That is our money. Yours and mine. And that is
three times the $700 billion we all argued about so strenuously just this
past September. Who has this money? Why do they have it? Why are the terms
unavailable to us? Who asked for it? Who authorized it? I thought this was a
government of "we the people," who loaned our powers to our elected leaders.
Apparently not.
We have spent two or more decades intentionally de-industrializing our
economy. Why?
We have intentionally dumbed down our schools, ignored our history, and no
longer teach our founding documents, why we are exceptional, and why we are
worth preserving. Students by and large cannot write, think critically,
read, or articulate. Parents are not revolting, teachers are not picketing,
school boards continue to back mediocrity. Why?
We have now established the precedent of protesting every close election
(violently in California over a proposition that is so controversial that it
simply wants marriage to remain defined as between one man and one woman.
Did you ever think such a thing possible just a decade ago?) We have
corrupted our sacred political process by allowing unelected judges to write
laws that radically change our way of life, and then mainstream Marxist
groups like ACORN and others to turn our voting system into a banana
republic. To what purpose?
Now our mortgage industry is collapsing, housing prices are in free fall,
major industries are failing, our banking system is on the verge of
collapse, social security is nearly bankrupt, as is medicare and our entire
government. Our education system is worse than a joke (I teach college and I
know precisely what I am talking about) - the list is staggering in its
length, breadth, and depth.. It is potentially 1929 x ten... And we are at
war with an enemy we cannot even name for fear of offending people of the
same religion, who, in turn, cannot wait to slit the throats of your
children if they have the opportunity to do so.
And finally, we have elected a man that no one really knows anything about,
who has never run so much as a Dairy Queen, let alone a town as big
asWasilla, Alaska . All of his associations and alliances are with real
radicals in their chosen fields of employment, and everything we learn about
him, drip by drip, is unsettling if not downright scary (Surely you have
heard him speak about his idea to create and fund a mandatory civilian
defense force stronger than our military for use inside our borders? No? Oh,
of course. The media would never play that for you over and over and then
demand he answer it. Sarah Palin's pregnant daughter and $150,000 wardrobe
are more important.)
Mr. Obama's winning platform can be boiled down to one word: Change. Why?
I have never been so afraid for my country and for my children as I am now.
This man campaigned on bringing people together, something he has never,
ever done in his professional life. In my assessment, Obama will divide us
along philosophical lines, push us apart, and then try to realign the pieces
into a new and different power structure. Change is indeed coming. And when
it comes, you will never see the same nation again.
And that is only the beginning..
As a serious student of history, I thought I would never come to experience
what the ordinary, moral German must have felt in the mid-1930s. In those
times, the "savior" was a former smooth-talking rabble-rouser from the
streets, about whom the average German knew next to nothing. What they
should have known was that he was associated with groups that shouted,
shoved, and pushed around people with whom they disagreed; he edged his way
onto the political stage through great oratory. Conservative "losers" read
it right now.
And there were the promises. Economic times were tough, people were losing
jobs, and he was a great speaker. And he smiled and frowned and waved a lot.
And people, even newspapers, were afraid to speak out for fear that his
"brown shirts" would bully and beat them into submission. Which they did -
regularly. And then, he was duly elected to office, while a full-throttled
economic crisis bloomed at hand - the Great Depression. Slowly, but surely
he seized the controls of government power, person by person, department by
department, bureaucracy by bureaucracy. The children of German citizens were
at first, encouraged to join a Youth Movement in his name where they were
taught exactly what to think. Later, they were required to do so. No Jews of
course,
How did he get people on his side? He did it by promising jobs to the
jobless, money to the money-less, and rewards for the military-industrial
complex. He did it by indoctrinating the children, advocating gun control,
health care for all, better wages, better jobs, and promising to re-instill
pride once again in the country, across Europe , and across the world. He
did it with a compliant media - did you know that? And he did this all in
the name of justice and .... . .. change. And the people surely got what
they voted for.
If you think I am exaggerating, look it up. It's all there in the history
books.
So read your history books. Many people of conscience objected in 1933 and
were shouted down, called names, laughed at, and ridiculed. WhenWinston
Churchill pointed out the obvious in the late 1930s while seated in the
House of Lords in England (he was not yet Prime Minister), he was booed into
his seat and called a crazy troublemaker. He was right, though. And the
world came to regret that he was not listened to.
Do not forget that Germany was the most educated, the most cultured country
in Europe . It was full of music, art, museums, hospitals, laboratories, and
universities. And yet, in less than six years (a shorter time span than just
two terms of the U. S. presidency) it was rounding up its own citizens,
killing others, abrogating its laws, turning children against parents, and
neighbors against neighbors.. All with the best of intentions, of course.
The road to Hell is paved with them.
As a practical thinker, one not overly prone to emotional decisions, I have
a choice: I can either believe what the objective pieces of evidence tell me
(even if they make me cringe with disgust); I can believe what history is
shouting to me from across the chasm of seven decades; or I can hope I am
wrong by closing my eyes, having another latte, and ignoring what is
transpiring around me..
I choose to believe the evidence. No doubt some people will scoff at me,
others laugh, or think I am foolish, naive, or both. To some degree, perhaps
I am. But I have never been afraid to look people in the eye and tell them
exactly what I believe-and why I believe it.
I pray I am wrong. I do not think I am. Perhaps the only hope is our vote in
the next elections.
David Kaiser
Jamestown , Rhode Island
United States
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brcamp(at)windows.microso
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:21 am Post subject: It is time... |
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Considering Mr Obama's $600 million in untraceable fraudulent campaign contributions, from "somewhere", the fact that a similar sum was detected showing up in the Argentine presidential elections tracable to Hugo Chavez, and the warm embrace and general yucking-it-up Mr Obama did with Mr Chavez at the OAS conference week before last, I suspect you may have a good point. But not Hitlerian some much as "Bolivarian".
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n395v
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450
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| Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: It is time... |
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A recent poll taken in Canada (see attached)
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