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Wing locker questions.

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K Dilks

Joined: 22 Sep 2008
Posts: 108
Location: UK

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:33 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

Does any one know how many of the unexplained crashed XLs had wing lockers?



Any ideas on what would happen if one was to open in flight? Not good for sure.

 Just finished my second locker and was wondering as the dzus fasteners are not very tight, no real "click" when doing them up.



Just keeping busy building............. :

_________________
Back home .................

tiethoff

Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 23

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

It's going to open during take-off and has the effect of spoilers. So 

take -off speed is going up and stall speed is going up.



--------------------------------------------------

From: "K Dilks" <kevin.dilks(at)liwest.at>

Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:33 PM

To: <zenith601-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Wing locker questions.



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Does any one know how many of the unexplained crashed XLs had wing 

 lockers?



 Any ideas on what would happen if one was to open in flight? Not good for 

 sure.

 Just finished my second locker and was wondering as the dzus fasteners are 

 not very tight, no real "click" when doing them up.



 Just keeping busy building............. : 



 --------

 Austria .............





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 42598#242598

Thruster87

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 193
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 3:28 am Post subject: Re: Wing locker questions.

If you are worried about the fasteners opening you can place a small O-ring under it [not under the head but under the lower surface /tail] to put a bit of compression loading and it also stops the fasteners falling out once undone. Cheers

hansriet

Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 93

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Wing locker questions.

Or buy the grommets that are made for this function. They are 6 cents a piece at ACS. ( GP5B BLACK THERMOPLASTIC HALF GROM. )



By the way if you don't hear a click, you should check your installation



Hans

jerryvmd

Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 25

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

List:

I hate to admit this, but about 3 years ago I was in a hurry after doing 

some maintenance and did not do a complete pre-flight as I had flown the 

plane about an hour prior.  Well I had failed to close the right wing 

locker on my 601HD.  As soon as I took off, the locker came open and the 

right wing dropped.  I was able to control the flight with opposite 

stick almost fully deflected.  Went around the pattern and landed 

without incident.  SO it is controllable if one comes open but avoid 

brown underwear stains and check your lockers before EACH flight.

Jerry



K Dilks wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  



Does any one know how many of the unexplained crashed XLs had wing lockers?



Any ideas on what would happen if one was to open in flight? Not good for sure.

 Just finished my second locker and was wondering as the dzus fasteners are not very tight, no real "click" when doing them up.

daveaustin2(at)primus.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 12:39 pm Post subject: Wing locker questions.

Wing locker check at pre-flight is absolutely imperative.  I know one pilot 

who managed to get back down safely and one who was burned very badly when 

he crash landed.  All the lift goes on that side.

Dave Austin  601HDS - 912

Ianrat

Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Brisbane AUSTRALIA

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Wing locker questions.

I have changed my clips from the supplied ones to the quarter turn Cam Locks. These seem to have a better locking position. I have also increased the number that are shown on the plans. I have talked to some pilots that have use the standard number and they have said that the locker still lifts up a bit. He was using the washer under the fastener and it still looked like the locker wanted to lift up a little.



Ianrat

rsteele(at)rjsit.com
Guest

Posted: Mon May 04, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: Wing locker questions.

A stiffener was added to to the wing locker cover for the 650 vs the  

601.   (L angle, longitudinally between the fore/aft stiffeners,  

roughly centered).

This should help the cover hold its shape, but I think a couple more  

fasteners couldn't hurt either.



Ron

On May 4, 2009, at 7:43 PM, Ianrat wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I have changed my clips from the supplied ones to the quarter turn  

 Cam Locks. These seem to have a better locking position. I have also  

 increased the number that are shown on the plans. I have talked to  

 some pilots that have use the standard number and they have said  

 that the locker still lifts up a bit. He was using the washer under  

 the fastener and it still looked like the locker wanted to lift up a  

 little.



 Ianrat





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 42732#242732

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Wing locker questions.

In my experience DZUS fasteners hold quite well.  The cowlings and panels on the WWII B25 I used to crew used a bunch of them.  I also have them on my Champ and they've never failed in 34 years 



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

On Friday 08 May 2009 21:24, Tim Juhl wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 In my experience DZUS fasteners hold quite well.  The cowlings and panels

 on the WWII B25 I used to crew used a bunch of them.  I also have them on

 my Champ and they've never failed in 34 years 


	


But are these in the same configuration as those on the Zenith? There's no 

positive retention mechanism on these as they are intended to be installed. If 

you tip the wing locker up, they fall out.



I've used Dzus fasteners before with good success also. But they weren't 

configured as these are.



=============================================

                Do not archive.

=============================================

                Jim B Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

     Retired aerospace technical manager

=============================================

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

Hi Jim,

I'd recommend you make some nylon washers from milk jugs to retain the 

Dzus fasteners or purchase

the same from Aircraft Spruce labeled as thermoplastic GP half grommet 

types for about .06 each.

These will secure the studs and keep you from loosing any.

Larry McFarland  601HDS at www.macsmachine.com

Jim Belcher wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 On Friday 08 May 2009 21:24, Tim Juhl wrote:

> 

>

> In my experience DZUS fasteners hold quite well.  The cowlings and panels

> on the WWII B25 I used to crew used a bunch of them.  I also have them on

> my Champ and they've never failed in 34 years 

>     

 But are these in the same configuration as those on the Zenith? There's no 

 positive retention mechanism on these as they are intended to be installed. If 

 you tip the wing locker up, they fall out.

 I've used Dzus fasteners before with good success also. But they weren't 

 configured as these are.

 =============================================

                 Do not archive.

 =============================================

                 Jim B Belcher

     BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science

                   A&P/IA

      Retired aerospace technical manager

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

You can get plastic half grommets from Aircraft Spruce that snap on to  

the dzus fastener and hold it captive in the panel. These are part  

number GP3B, GP4B, etc. The number corresponds to the diameter of the  

stud in 16ths of an inch. They also carry more expensive metal  

grommets that require special tools to install.



On May 9, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Jim Belcher wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 But are these in the same configuration as those on the Zenith?  

 There's no

 positive retention mechanism on these as they are intended to be  

 installed. If

 you tip the wing locker up, they fall out.



 I've used Dzus fasteners before with good success also. But they  

 weren't

 configured as these are.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

bryanmmartin

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1018

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

See: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/grommets.php



bottom of page, Half Grommets.

On May 9, 2009, at 10:15 AM, Jim Belcher wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   But are these in the same configuration as those on the Zenith?  

 There's no

 positive retention mechanism on these as they are intended to be  

 installed. If

 you tip the wing locker up, they fall out.



 I've used Dzus fasteners before with good success also. But they  

 weren't

 configured as these are.




	




-- 

Bryan Martin

N61BM, CH 601 XL,

RAM Subaru, Stratus redrive.

do not archive.

_________________
--
Bryan Martin
N61BM, CH 601 XL, Stratus Subaru.
do not archive.

tonyplane(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

I used appropriate diameter "O" rings from my Harbor Freight "O" ring  kit. 

They have worked well to retain the fasteners for about 4 years.  Just slip 

them over the fasteners "stud" end.



Tony Graziano

XL/Jab N493TG

---

naumuk(at)windstream.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:40 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

All-

    After many hours I managed to get the DZUS to work properly on my 

lockers but I still have no faith in their ability to hold securely. Since I 

have locker tanks, the best compromise I could come up with is a 

modification of what Klaus' (Sorry, I can't remember his last name) 

extensive airflow tests on his HDS indicated.

    I intend to secure the main section of the locker with screws and 

nutplates, then add a small hatch to access the filler spout. Mind you, I 

made this decision after I got the DZUS to work. The small hatch would 

create minimal airflow disturbance if it opened, yet you can still get in 

for inspection or maintenance purposes. I know of several builders who 

simply didn't add the locker option. Just another option.

                                                                             

            Bill

---

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

On Saturday 09 May 2009 09:58, LarryMcFarland wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <larry(at)macsmachine.com>



 Hi Jim,

 I'd recommend you make some nylon washers from milk jugs to retain the

 Dzus fasteners or purchase

 the same from Aircraft Spruce labeled as thermoplastic GP half grommet

 types for about .06 each.

 These will secure the studs and keep you from loosing any.


	


Thanks for the tip! What I wound up doing was to use "O" rings. That held the 

fasteners in place, and also pushed against the fasteners when the locker is 

closed, making it more secure.



My response was really directed towards the fact that some Dzus fastener 

installations really are secure. But, as designed, those in the 601XL aren't.

==============================================

       Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

            Do not drink and derive.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

=================================================

z601(at)anemicaardvark.co
Guest

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Wing locker questions.

On Saturday 09 May 2009 10:21, T. Graziano wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <tonyplane(at)bellsouth.net>



 I used appropriate diameter "O" rings from my Harbor Freight "O" ring  kit.

 They have worked well to retain the fasteners for about 4 years.  Just slip

 them over the fasteners "stud" end.


	


Same place I got mine. 

==============================================

       Mathematics and alcohol do not mix.

            Do not drink and derive.

=================================================

               Jim B. Belcher

    BS, MS Physics, math, Computer Science

                  A&P/IA

           Instrument Rated Pilot

     General Radio Telephone Certificate

     Retired Aerospace Technical Manager

=================================================

Tim Juhl

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Posts: 488
Location: "Thumb" of Michigan

Posted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Wing locker questions.

I should have added that I used the thermoplastic grommets that Bryan recommended when I installed the dzus fasteners on my XL wings.  When I installed the springs I dimpled the rivet holes and used a flat head on the rivet puller. The hole in the dzus strip is large enough to accommodate dished part of the plastic grommet. The fasteners supplied with my kit hold the cover very snuggly and flush with the wing skin. I did add a third stiffener in the middle of the cover to help it hold it's shape.



On the B25 most of the Dzus fasteners were not held in place by grommets.  Our biggest problem was with the springs inasmuch as 40+ years of vibrating next to a 1700 hp radial engine took it's toll.  From time to time we would find one missing but we never lost a panel.  I would suspect that you could lose most of the fasteners on a wing locker cover without worrying about losing it.  The forward hinge won't let it go anywhere while the dzus fasteners  will hold it flush.



Tim

_________________
______________
CFII
Champ L16A flying
Zodiac XL - Jabiru 3300A
Almost done! It'll fly in spring!

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