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LR3 regulator Amperage indications

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wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

Bob,

Does the LR3 regulate the voltage by switching the current on/off? or by 

smoothly varying the field circuit.  I have a data recorder taking samples 

every 5 seconds, and the current jumps up and down, while the voltage is 

quite steady.  Is this normal?

Bill Schertz

KIS Cruiser #4045

N343BS

---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

At 03:57 PM 4/24/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,

Does the LR3 regulate the voltage by switching the current on/off? 

or by smoothly varying the field circuit.  I have a data recorder 

taking samples every 5 seconds, and the current jumps up and down, 

while the voltage is quite steady.  Is this normal?


	


   Where are you measuring current and voltage? The LR series

   regulators are linear devices i.e. smoothly variable DC output

   voltage. But without knowing exactly where you are sampling

   voltage and current, I'm unable to deduce the significance

   of your observations.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:21 am Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

Bob,

The heavy lead from the Alternator feeds through a hall effect sensor that 

is supplied by and read by a Blue mountain EFIS to supply a 0-5 volt signal 

that is calibrated for amperage.



The Voltage readings are on the main bus, and also the e-bus (Reads a few 

tenths lower because of diode) and they are nice and stable.

Bill Schertz

KIS Cruiser #4045

N343BS

---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 5:35 am Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

At 08:17 AM 4/25/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,

The heavy lead from the Alternator feeds through a hall effect 

sensor that is supplied by and read by a Blue mountain EFIS to 

supply a 0-5 volt signal that is calibrated for amperage.



The Voltage readings are on the main bus, and also the e-bus (Reads 

a few tenths lower because of diode) and they are nice and stable.

Bill Schertz

KIS Cruiser #4045

N343BS


	


   Okay, how much do the current readings "wiggle". Remember

   that a 3-phase rectified AC output alternators has about 5%

   pk-pk ripple on it. Further, there are diode switching

   transients that can expand the total pk-pk level of noise

   to 10% or so of bus voltage. Depending on the roll-off in

   frequency response of your data acquisition system, you may

   be sampling the effects of this noise.



   Try putting a 1000 ohm resistor in series with your sample

   sense line an a 10 mF capacitor across the line on the

   line away from the sense point. This will roll off your

   frequency response to about 100 Hz. See if this doesn't

   settle the readings considerably.



   The fact that your bus voltage is stable suggests that

   the phenomenon you're observing is a product of measurement

   technique and not a suggestion of poor system performance.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

Bob,

The heavy B lead comes off the B&C alternator, and passes through a sensor 

supplied by Blue Mountain avionics, which I believe is a Hall effect 

transducer, and then goes to the Batteries.  The Voltage is measured at the 

Main buss.



I am enclosing the output from the last flight showing the variations.



Bill Schertz

KIS Cruiser #4045

N343BS

Phase I testing

---

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri May 08, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

At 10:33 AM 5/8/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bob,

The heavy B lead comes off the B&C alternator, and passes through a 

sensor supplied by Blue Mountain avionics, which I believe is a Hall 

effect transducer, and then goes to the Batteries.  The Voltage is 

measured at the Main buss.



I am enclosing the output from the last flight showing the variations.


	


    Those traces are almost certainly plagued with data sampling

    artifacts polluted by noise. There's no way that the "real"

    numbers are that trashy. Have you explored the R/C filtering

    I suggested? How many bits of resolution does the data

    acquisition system offer?

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 18, 2009 3:21 am Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

Bob,

I am now convinced that the variations were real. I inserted an ammeter into 

the field line, while the engine was stopped. Got a reading of 3.5 amps. 

Then took the plane out, fired it up with the ammeter in place, and when the 

alternator switch was turned on, the current went to 3.5 amps for a very 

short time, then dropped to zero.  At that point, it stayed at zero, and the 

battery would not charge.



Put plane back in hanger, and did some static measurements.



Voltage from LR-3 to field circuit breaker ~4.5 volts

Voltage at connector to alternator (black plug) ~4.5V



Resistance to ground through the leads that field current plugs into varies 

(jumps around) and then often goes to open circuit.



Could the slip rings be contaminated or not in contact?



Comments?



Bill Schertz

KIS Cruiser #4045

N343BS

Phase I testing

---

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:33 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

At 06:12 AM 5/18/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob,

I am now convinced that the variations were real. I inserted an 

ammeter into the field line, while the engine was stopped. Got a 

reading of 3.5 amps. Then took the plane out, fired it up with the 

ammeter in place, and when the alternator switch was turned on, the 

current went to 3.5 amps for a very short time, then dropped to 

zero.  At that point, it stayed at zero, and the battery would not charge.



Put plane back in hanger, and did some static measurements.



Voltage from LR-3 to field circuit breaker ~4.5 volts


	


   This voltage comes FROM your battery via the contactor,

   main bus, alternator field breaker and switch. When

   you made these measurements, was the battery charged

   at all? Or was it down to 4.5 volts?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Voltage at connector to alternator (black plug) ~4.5V


	




 	  Quote: 	
		  Resistance to ground through the leads that field current plugs into 

varies (jumps around) and then often goes to open circuit.



Could the slip rings be contaminated or not in contact?


	


    This is a possibility. You need to deduce the

    reason for such low voltage readings. Put

    a charger/maintainer on your battery and make

    sure it's 100% before you continue the investigation.



        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

wschertz(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

Bob, an update -- The Battery, alternator, and LR3C are fine, the symptoms 

below are attributed to operator induced problems.



1. Apparently when hooking up for the test, I caused a short that blew the 

fuse to the alternator field. That is the reason for the battery not 

charging.



2. I talked to B&C, and downloaded there diagnostic check sheet. This led to 

the discovery of the blown fuse.



3. I have installed an old fashioned 50mv/60A shunt in the B lead, and 

hooked it up to a DVM. Alternator working fine, hash on recorded output must 

be as you originally surmised, the result of noise.



I have not yet tried to filter the noise, now that I know the output is 

stable, I can ignore the chart until I have time to fix it.



Thanks for your help/input.



Bill Schertz

KIS Cruiser #4045

N343BS

Phase I testing

---

ianxbrown

Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 80

Posted: Mon May 25, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

Not sure if this is relevant to your situation, but I just had a similar

experience with the EXPBUS output to the alternator.  The IRF4905 MOSFET

that was controlling the 12V to the alternator was measuring 12V with no

load, but when connected to the alternator dropped to a low voltage.

Replacing that device on the EXPBUS resolved my problem, as of

today. 



The ammeter output was totally confusing during this time, in that it

was indicating 2A, but may have actually been indicating no charging

current at all.  The battery was certainly discharging with minimal

loads.



If the LR3 "solid state" components include a similar device to the

IRF4905 it seems it's not so simple as just measuring the voltage at the

output, since it seems to drop as soon as a load is applied if faulty.



Good luck,

Ian Brown

Bromont

Quebec

Finally getting back to flying tomorrow!



On Mon, 2009-05-25 at 15:26 -0500, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 At 06:12 AM 5/18/2009, you wrote:

 >

 >

 >Bob,

 >I am now convinced that the variations were real. I inserted an 

 >ammeter into the field line, while the engine was stopped. Got a 

 >reading of 3.5 amps. Then took the plane out, fired it up with the 

 >ammeter in place, and when the alternator switch was turned on, the 

 >current went to 3.5 amps for a very short time, then dropped to 

 >zero.  At that point, it stayed at zero, and the battery would not charge.

 >

 >Put plane back in hanger, and did some static measurements.

 >

 >Voltage from LR-3 to field circuit breaker ~4.5 volts

 

    This voltage comes FROM your battery via the contactor,

    main bus, alternator field breaker and switch. When

    you made these measurements, was the battery charged

    at all? Or was it down to 4.5 volts?

 

 >Voltage at connector to alternator (black plug) ~4.5V

 

 

 >Resistance to ground through the leads that field current plugs into 

 >varies (jumps around) and then often goes to open circuit.

 >

 >Could the slip rings be contaminated or not in contact?

 

     This is a possibility. You need to deduce the

     reason for such low voltage readings. Put

     a charger/maintainer on your battery and make

     sure it's 100% before you continue the investigation.

 

 

 

         Bob . . .

 

         ----------------------------------------)

         ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

         ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

         ( appearance of being right . . .       )

         (                                       )

         (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ----------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

At 06:09 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Ian <ixb(at)videotron.ca>



 Not sure if this is relevant to your situation, but I just had a similar

 experience with the EXPBUS output to the alternator.  The IRF4905 MOSFET

 that was controlling the 12V to the alternator was measuring 12V with no

 load, but when connected to the alternator dropped to a low voltage.

 Replacing that device on the EXPBUS resolved my problem, as of

 today. 



 The ammeter output was totally confusing during this time, in that it

 was indicating 2A, but may have actually been indicating no charging

 current at all.  The battery was certainly discharging with minimal

 loads.



 If the LR3 "solid state" components include a similar device to the

 IRF4905 it seems it's not so simple as just measuring the voltage at the

 output, since it seems to drop as soon as a load is applied if faulty. 	


    Not exactly . . . The mosfet in the EXP bus appears to

    be used as a ON/OFF switch in the feature labeled OV CUTOFF.

    It should be turned on hard at all times when not OV-tripped

    so as to not upset regulator performance downstream.



 

 [img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20090526175330.01e5f6f8(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img] 



    The LR3 does have a series control device used as part of

    the voltage regulator system. The LR3 also features its own

    ov protection that would NOT be compatible with an EXP BUS

    installation. Bill cited a voltage reading on the order of

    4.5 volts on the wire between circuit breaker and the field

    terminal of the LR3 . . . this would cause the LR3 output

    to be similarly depressed.



    There's either something "unhooked" between the field supply

    breaker and the field power terminal of the LR3 . . . or the

    battery is REALLY soggy.



    Bob. . .

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

At 03:50 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Bob, an update -- The Battery, alternator, and LR3C are fine, the 

symptoms below are attributed to operator induced problems.



1. Apparently when hooking up for the test, I caused a short that 

blew the fuse to the alternator field. That is the reason for the 

battery not charging.



2. I talked to B&C, and downloaded there diagnostic check sheet. 

This led to the discovery of the blown fuse.



3. I have installed an old fashioned 50mv/60A shunt in the B lead, 

and hooked it up to a DVM. Alternator working fine, hash on recorded 

output must be as you originally surmised, the result of noise.



I have not yet tried to filter the noise, now that I know the output 

is stable, I can ignore the chart until I have time to fix it.



Thanks for your help/input.


	


    Aha! funny thing about those pesky electrons. The

    alchemists have been trying to teach them how to jump

    gaps for centuries . . . no joy.



    If you have an LR3, it should have no fuses in the

    field supply lead, only a 5A breaker and perhaps a

    fusible link as illustrated in Z14.

        Bob . . .



        ----------------------------------------)

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

        ----------------------------------------

bobmeyers(at)meyersfamily
Guest

Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: LR3 regulator Amperage indications

Hi Bill.



I was out at Aurora today and once last week.  Both times I remembered  

your plane was out there but had forgotten to contact you to see if  

you would be around. I'm flying again out of Gauntlet Warbirds at  

least once a week. I'll be there next Monday if the weather is good.



If you'd like to show off your plane, I would be delighted to see it.   

How often are you around out there?



Take care, good to see your making progress with the issue you posted.



Bob Meyers



Building Sonex 982SX Web Site Index http://meyersfamily.org/Sonex982.html



On May 25, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Bill Schertz wrote:



[quote] 

 >



 Bob, an update -- The Battery, alternator, and LR3C are fine, the  

 symptoms below are attributed to operator induced problems.



 1. Apparently when hooking up for the test, I caused a short that  

 blew the fuse to the alternator field. That is the reason for the  

 battery not charging.



 2. I talked to B&C, and downloaded there diagnostic check sheet.  

 This led to the discovery of the blown fuse.



 3. I have installed an old fashioned 50mv/60A shunt in the B lead,  

 and hooked it up to a DVM. Alternator working fine, hash on recorded  

 output must be as you originally surmised, the result of noise.



 I have not yet tried to filter the noise, now that I know the output  

 is stable, I can ignore the chart until I have time to fix it.



 Thanks for your help/input.



 Bill Schertz

 KIS Cruiser #4045

 N343BS

 Phase I testing

 ---

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