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701 Incident?

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Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: 701 Incident?

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20090528X22920&key=1



I think the pilot and student were not injured....



Regards,

Tommy Walker in Alabama



Do Not Archive

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

Brady

Joined: 26 May 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Poulsbo, WA

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:18 am Post subject: Re: 701 Incident?

Tommy,

I'm glad to see no one was hurt!



then again its hard to get hurt if you're not going very fast. 

I heard some one say there have been NO fatal 701 accidents?

Quite a record considering the design was released in 1986?



Cheers,

Brady

_________________
Brady McCormick
Poulsbo, WA
www.magnificentmachine.com

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: 701 Incident?

Brady,



The only fatality I'm aware of happened in New Mexico.  According to what I've read, it was a new sport pilot who was buzzing his house and got a wing too low.



One of the important things that people like me who are transitioning from GA to LSA need to work on is short final.  These little light airplanes will get away from you if you aren't careful.  I don't think ultralight pilots have the same problems because they are used to bouncing around when flying and landing....



If in doubt, go around.  The 701 will get you out of trouble if you don't insist on landing when you should go around.  This is not a Cessna that you glide down to the runway.



(Ok, I will quit being a school teacher and go back to being a builder).



DO NOT ARCHIVE

 	  Brady wrote: 	
		  Tommy,

I'm glad to see no one was hurt!



then again its hard to get hurt if you're not going very fast. 

I heard some one say there have been NO fatal 701 accidents?

Quite a record considering the design was released in 1986?



Cheers,

Brady

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

dougsnash

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 281

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: 701 Incident?

Actually Brady, there have been a few fatalities but they were generally from stupid pilot tricks not due to the plane.



Doug MacDonald

NW Ontario, Canada



Do Not Archive



--- On Thu, 6/11/09, Brady <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Brady <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>

 Subject: Re: 701 Incident?

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Received: Thursday, June 11, 2009, 2:18 PM

 --> Zenith701801-List message

 posted by: "Brady" <brady(at)magnificentmachine.com>

 

 Tommy,

 I'm glad to see no one was hurt!

 

 then again its hard to get hurt if you're going very fast.

 

 I heard some one say there have been NO fatal 701

 accidents?

 Quite a record considering the design was released in

 1986?

 

 Cheers,

 Brady

 

 --------

 Brady McCormick

 Poulsbo, WA

 www.magnificentmachine.com


	


      __________________________________________________________________

Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 1:44 pm Post subject: 701 Incident?

 	  Quote: 	
		  From all I have read the advice is to keep some power in when you land. This

raises the question: what is the recommended approach to a dead-stick
	


landing where you have no power at all?



-- Craig



--

lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:05 pm Post subject: 701 Incident?

Craig,

I took my 701/Rotax 912 up to 8000', cut the engine, and coasted in at about

65-MPH to a small grass trip at 100' AGL. No problem! With engine off and

prop not windmilling, just keep the speed up to 65 when you flair so you

won't start dropping too fast.

Les

--

craig(at)craigandjean.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: 701 Incident?

Thanks! I hope to get to try this someday.



-- Craig

Do not archive



--

jetboy

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: 701 Incident?

Forced landings: the various 'draft' POH manuals have not been oficially updated in years, and contain some contradictions.



The one thing that makes the 701 different (and effective as a STOL) is the pitch authority of the elevator when driven by propwash.



My optimum glide is clean at 40 KTs 



In practice I have 3 options for forced landings.



1/ If the available landing area is long and close, dive to loose height and flare smoothly, holding altitude near ground level, washing off excess speed. This provides the most positive control, and allows placement into tight spots with little or no increase to landing stop distance.



2/ For longest glide, maintain minimum of 40 KTs clean, or preferably use 45 to 50KTs with flap, flare abruptly and fully for the arrival. 50KTs provides a much more controllable situation, as timing and rate of the flare is less critical. As I'm averse to unnecessarily repairing nosegear, I have not practiced for speeds lower than 45KTs.



3/ If no suitable area is within gliding distance, it is possible to hold full aft elevator and glide at a higher descent rate but with the lowest forward speed. There is no way to arrest the descent or control the touchdown in some circumstances it may be the best outcome.



Ralph

_________________
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Thu Jun 11, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: 701 Incident?

I tried to send this earlier, but it didn't work....



Niol in New Zealand writes:  

ENGINE FAILURE: 

Question:During a power-off glide (engine shutdown) in a piston engine aircraft with a fixed pitch propeller, is the glide ratio better with the prop windmilling or with the prop stopped?

Answer: (Courtesy of "Ask the Experts" at ipilot.com.) "Stopped, because the propeller produces more and more drag the faster it turns".



In the 701, switching the engine off results in the prop stopping almost immediately which is of course quite different to G.A. aircraft. This is due to the 2 &1/4 gearbox reduction coupled with the relatively high cylinder compression. With the prop stopped elevator control is available to much lower speeds and the glide distance is noticably improved. Whilst I have not attempted to stall it with the engine stopped, elevator control was markedly better during the touch down than when the engine is idling. (This raises the spectre that the simulated engine out practice done by closing the throttle is possibly quite erroneous and a real engine out under the same circumstances could result in overshooting the mark. Unfortunately I havnâ€™t enough instrumentation to get accurate data but I suspect there will be a RPM setting which would equate to the stopped prop drag.) With the engine running and throttle closed at moderate weights with 4 degrees set on my angle of attack indicator, (best lift drag ratio) speed equates to 48 kts. I am guessing that at the same weight and ang/attack with the engine stopped the speed would be around 40 kts.)



http://www.acomodata.com/zenair701/flying%202.htm



Tommy



 	  craig(at)craigandjean.com wrote: 	
		  Thanks! I hope to get to try this someday.



-- Craig

Do not archive



--

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

bobkat

Joined: 07 Sep 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Bismarck, ND

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:09 am Post subject: 701 Incident?

Good question Craig.  Just keep your speed up on short final.  Don't let it 

get too slow or you can develop a fairly high rate of descent.

I think pilots get sucked in and develop a false sense of security when they 

see that the 701 stalls at 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna" 

at that speed.  Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a nose 

high attitude and lots of power to drag it in, which is not a normal landing 

in my opinion.

So my advice, for what its worth after only 50 hours or so, is to just carry 

a little more speed and you'll be fine.   If you tend to have an aft of 

center CG, which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and 

stuff in the baggage compartment, then carry a little bit more speed to 

compensate.

The bottom line, is land a bit faster than you might think is necessary for 

a STOL plane, especially without power.  No matter what you do in a dead 

stick landing, you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping the plane 

in and wrecking it either.



---

nyterminat(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: 701 Incident?

Craig,

 I have landed with idle power many times. It is very useful as you come over tall objects at the approach end of a short runway.  As BobKat has said keep the speed up ( I use about 55-60 ) and don't flair until your sphinter starts to pucker. The speed bleeds  off quickly and she will set right down without much of a bump. It is much like a helicopter autorotation, when you pull the collective at the last moment to get the lift out of the blades. Just takes some practice, best to be done in the air first.

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX

 CH701/912S/174hrs

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "BokKat" <bobkat(at)btinet.net (bobkat(at)btinet.net)> 

  

 Good question Craig. Just keep your speed up on short final. Don't let it get too slow or you can develop a fairly high rate of descent. 

 I think pilots get sucked in and develop a false sense of security when they see that the 701 stalls at 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna" at that speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a nose high attitude and lots of power to drag it in, which is not a normal landing in my opinion. 

 So my advice, for what its worth after only 50 hours or so, is to just carry a little more speed and you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of center CG, which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and stuff in the baggage compartment, then carry a little bit more speed to compensate. 

 The bottom line, is land a bit faster than you might think is necessary for a STOL plane, especially without power. No matter what you do in a dead stick landing, you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping the plane in and wrecking it either. 

  

 	


 

 

 --

Tommy Walker

Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Anniston, AL 36207

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:03 am Post subject: Re: 701 Incident?

Good Advice Bob.



I usually keep 3000, 3200 rpm on the rotax until I get just off the run way and then pull back on the throttle and the stick at about 50 mph.  I pretty much fly final at flap setting, around 60.  With 3000-3200 rpm on your Rotax you will have plenty of air moving over the tail and can control your descent pretty good.  Seems like the wheels touch the runway at about 40 mph, still with a little throttle.  



A fellow on another list took me to task for saying you control speed with elevator and altitude with throttle, but that's how it works for me.



Tommy Walker in Alabama



Do Not Archive the ramblings of an old retired school teacher.



 	  nyterminat(at)aol.com wrote: 	
		  Craig,

 I have landed with idle power many times. It is very useful as you come over tall objects at the approach end of a short runway.  As BobKat has said keep the speed up ( I use about 55-60 ) and don't flair until your sphinter starts to pucker. The speed bleeds  off quickly and she will set right down without much of a bump. It is much like a helicopter autorotation, when you pull the collective at the last moment to get the lift out of the blades. Just takes some practice, best to be done in the air first.

 Bob Spudis

 N701ZX

 CH701/912S/174hrs

   	  Quote: 	
		  --> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "BokKat" <bobkat> 

  

 Good question Craig. Just keep your speed up on short final. Don't let it get too slow or you can develop a fairly high rate of descent. 

 I think pilots get sucked in and develop a false sense of security when they see that the 701 stalls at 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna" at that speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a nose high attitude and lots of power to drag it in, which is not a normal landing in my opinion. 

 So my advice, for what its worth after only 50 hours or so, is to just carry a little more speed and you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of center CG, which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and stuff in the baggage compartment, then carry a little bit more speed to compensate. 

 The bottom line, is land a bit faster than you might think is necessary for a STOL plane, especially without power. No matter what you do in a dead stick landing, you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping the plane in and wrecking it either. 

  

 	


 

 

 --

_________________
Tommy Walker
N25A - Anniston, AL

agibeaut

Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 64

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: 701 Incident?

He should not have taken you to task, that is exactly how I was taught by my CFI who was a pilot for over 50 years. He learned that flying fighters in WWII. "Speed with pitch, altitude with power especially on final"--I can still hear him yelling in my ear.



--- On Fri, 6/12/09, Tommy Walker <twalker(at)cableone.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Tommy Walker <twalker(at)cableone.net>

 Subject: Re: 701 Incident?

 To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Friday, June 12, 2009, 12:03 PM

 --> Zenith701801-List message

 posted by: "Tommy Walker" <twalker(at)cableone.net>

 

 Good Advice Bob.

 

 I usually keep 3000, 3200 rpm on the rotax until I get just

 off the run way and then pull back on the throttle and the

 stick at about 50 mph.  I pretty much fly final at flap

 setting, around 60.  With 3000-3200 rpm on your Rotax

 you will have plenty of air moving over the tail and can

 control your descent pretty good.  Seems like the

 wheels touch the runway at about 40 mph, still with a little

 throttle.  

 

 A fellow on another list took me to task for saying you

 control speed with elevator and altitude with throttle, but

 that's how it works for me.

 

 Tommy Walker in Alabama

 

 Do Not Archive the ramblings of an old retired school

 teacher.

 

 

 

 

 nyterminat(at)aol.com wrote:

 > Craig,

 >  I have landed with idle power many times. It is

 very useful as you come over tall objects at the approach

 end of a short runway.  As BobKat has said keep the

 speed up ( I use about 55-60 ) and don't flair until your

 sphinter starts to pucker. The speed bleeds  off

 quickly and she will set right down without much of a bump.

 It is much like a helicopter autorotation, when you pull the

 collective at the last moment to get the lift out of the

 blades. Just takes some practice, best to be done in the air

 first.

 >  Bob Spudis

 >  N701ZX

 >  CH701/912S/174hrs

 >   

 > > 

 "BokKat"  

 > >   

 > >  Good question Craig. Just keep your speed

 up on short final. Don't let it get too slow or you can

 develop a fairly high rate of descent. 

 > >  I think pilots get sucked in and develop a

 false sense of security when they see that the 701 stalls at

 28 - 30 mph and try to glide in "like a Cessna" at that

 speed. Sure, they stall at less than 30mph but only with a

 nose high attitude and lots of power to drag it in, which is

 not a normal landing in my opinion. 

 > >  So my advice, for what its worth after only

 50 hours or so, is to just carry a little more speed and

 you'll be fine. If you tend to have an aft of center CG,

 which I think some planes do with BRS's mounted way back and

 stuff in the baggage compartment, then carry a little bit

 more speed to compensate. 

 > >  The bottom line, is land a bit faster than

 you might think is necessary for a STOL plane, especially

 without power. No matter what you do in a dead stick

 landing, you probably won't get hurt, but no point dropping

 the plane in and wrecking it either. 

 > >   

 > >  

 > 

 >  

 >  

 >  --

 

 

 --------

 Tommy Walker

 N8701  -  Anniston, AL

 

 

 

 

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lgold(at)quantum-associat
Guest

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject: 701 Incident?

Ralph,

Are you sure about putting down flaps in a dead stick landing when you are

trying to extend the glide??? 

My understanding is that the flaps add a lot of drag. I may put the flaps

out just before flairing out to slow me down if I have the speed to handle

it (55kts or better on flair won't give excess negative VS is I flair but

will slow me down), but never during the glide!... The glide at 45Kt with

flaps will drop my 701 into a much shorter glide than I can do at 55Kts

without flaps. 

Have you actually done this with engine-out or are you just giving advice

freely?

Pls explain. What engine do you have, what is your empty weight, and where

is your empty CG? 

I have made dead stick landings, dropping from 8000' to 100'in my 701. My

numbers are: 912ULS, 680 empty, and GC is back fairly far, about 20mm from

the back of the allowed window (BRS behind the baggage area). Note someone

said the prop will stop if the engine is off. Again, not the case. It won't

stop on my plane until I nose-up for a few seconds and bleed off some speed.



Les

--

jetboy

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 233

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: 701 Incident?

Les,



My wording was ambiguous and meant to say, for the longest stretch of glide, to use 40KTs minimum, clean. This was the measured best glide for my airframe. I'm never comfortable using it, because the flare is going to be difficult. For conditions where glide range cannot be reliably estimated - that is most days where wind directions, locations of sink and thermals are not known, better control of the approach is made with 50KTs and with flap down early or not at all, to allow concentration on setting the flare. I wanted to get across the 701 is not like a Cessna (and I owned a straightback 150 for 12 years so know a thing or two about them) with the low inertia there is more room for upset in the approach leading to irrecoverable sink rate on the other hand speed is easily shed at the flare so I rather take the shorter, closer forced landing fast than attempt to stretch a glide that may not be realizable for a more attractive strip.



I have done 45KTs flap down and 50Kts both clean and flap down with prop windmilling  - The Jabiru prop has not stopped during the six episodes of interrupted fuelflow I have experienced.



I have a rev.4 airframe, that is the 1100 lbs weight with 0 and 16 degrees  flap settings and a Jabiru 2200 engine 



empty weight is 590 lbs and CG is  21% MAC and on the rear line 35% MAC at full fuel 85 Ltrs and crew, with about 20 lbs to spare for fwd cabin baggage. yes my PC925 battery is with the engine.

_________________
Ralph - CH701 / 2200a

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