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wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: M14P magneto

Hi all,

  

 Does any one have a new or near new Magneto for  sale for M14P?

  

 Am grounded .

  

 Thanks, Chris.

   [quote][b]

jimscjs(at)mbay.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

Whats the Model #

  

 Jim

 [quote]   ---

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

G'Day Jim,

  

 Thanks for the reply.

 All that we can find on the Mag is M9-Then a sqaure  with a vertical line thru it.

  

 This comes out of the M14P in our yak  18T.

  

 That's all the info that the Mag has on  it.

 Hope that helps.

  

 Thanks and cheers,

 Chris.

  

 ---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:03 am Post subject: M14P magneto

That would be an M9-F magneto which has a fixed timing setting  of 14-16 degrees before TDC.

 What have you determined to be the problem with your  magneto?

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 5:54 am Post subject: Re: M14P magneto

Look here



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M-14P-M9F-Mag-Radial-Russian_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3a8Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14Q2el1262QQhashZitem1c049d394eQQitemZ120336496974QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear

_________________
Milt

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:30 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

G'Day Milt,



Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.



I had already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all others.



I notice that you sign off with radial rocket.

A number of years back I was extremely interested in building one and sent 

emails to the advertised site with never a reply.



Man, they look to be a awesome ship.



Thanks and cheers,

Chris.

---

wise(at)txc.net.au
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

G'Day Dennis,

  

 Well the mag stuffed up about 3 hours flying time  away from home base.

 Ivor  Peach, a friend and LAME that does all  the work for Lindsay Sinclair, Redstar Aviation here in Australia, flew his 18T  to where we were with his spare mag.

  

 We sent our mag away and it came back with the  opnion that the H.T rod was earthing out.

 I sourced 2 new H.T. rods but in the meantime made  one out of old Packard S/S High Tension lead.

 We tried this in Ivors Mag and it worked  perfectly.

  

 When the new genuine H.T. rod arrived, we re  installed our mag with the new H.T. rod.

 Stone dead. We tried it with the H.T. lead that I  made, stone dead.

  

  So it would appear that the mag shop in  Sydney did not diagnose the problem at all.

  

 Here in Adelaide there is a retired old fart ( like  me) who is a mag man.

 Now being a old fart means he knows a few  things.

 So I am taking it to him today.

  

 It would however be nice to have a spare mag, does  not have to be reconned or new, just a spare.

  

 Thanks and cheers,

 Chris.

 [quote]   ---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:50 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

In a message dated 6/22/2009 6:31:23 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  wise(at)txc.net.au writes:

  

  

  

 Chris,

  

 You know you can use a mag off the HS-6 Chinese engine, if you can fine  one.  You time it a little differently.  At one point I ran my M-14p  with one Russian mag and one Chinese mag.  Worked fine, until I was able to  get one Russian mag back from overhauled.  At one point I ran the M-14 on  just Chinese mags.  I honestly could not tell the difference.

  

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

 [quote]-->    Yak-List message posted by: "Chris Wise" <wise(at)txc.net.au>



G'Day    Milt,



Thanks for sendingme the link to Steve Culp's site.



I had    already looked there and his Mag is dearer than all others.



I notice    that you sign off with radial rocket.

A number of years back I was    extremely interested in building one and sent 

emails to the advertised    site with never a reply.



Man, they look to be a awesome    ship.



Thanks and cheers,

Chris.

---

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:00 am Post subject: Re: M14P magneto

 	  Quote: 	
		  his Mag is dearer than all others. 



I notice that you sign off with radial rocket. 

A number of years back I was extremely interested in building one and sent 

emails to the advertised site with never a reply. 



	




Yep dear and proud, ain't nuthin cheap over here anymore.



You might contact George Coy at Geosoco Inc. A few years ago he had a working prototype of an electronic ignition insert for the M9 mag.



The Radial Rocket is an awesome airplane unfortunately the kit makers just aren't on top of their game when it comes to marketing and response to inquiries..



Hope you get back in the air soon.

_________________
Milt

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:18 am Post subject: M14P magneto

Pappy, is this a case where the Chinese Mag had a spark advance

mechanism and used variable spark timing, and the other one (The M9) ran

FIXED spark timing?  



I am not sure if that is the case or not.  I know that some of these

mags run variable timing and some run fixed.  Running two variables, or

running two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that has

variable spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow

the engine to have the plugs firing at two different times in the same

cylinder and that would be a bad thing.  



This actually happened with one M-14PF leading to a really difficult to

diagnose high performance problem at full throttle.  Turned out to be a

mixed mag problem like described above.  



Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not know which

type of operation they use honestly.  If they are fixed timing mags with

just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck yes... No

problem mixing them with Russian mags.  But if one is a variable timing

mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a good thing to do

other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency... And to be

honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag during the

flight home and not on BOTH.  



Just my 2 cents, 



Mark Bitterlich

--

N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: M14P magneto

The centrifugal advance system in the Chinese MAG and some of the Russians

appears to reach the max advance 

considerably before reaching top RPM. So the timing i.e. max advance if set

correctly would be the same. It

seems the reason for the centrifugal advance was for easer starting and

smoother idle.



Tom Elliott

CJ-6A NX63727

702-595-2680  



--

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: M14P magneto

Been there...done that with a M-9PF and M-9 mix. Did not run worth a crap at

full throttle!

Seems some zipperhead in the home country in a effort to make a buck ground

the bossing off the case designating it a PF mag and I got it as a M-9 mag.

Talk about headaches sorting that crap out!

Doc



--

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: M14P magneto

Tom, 



The M-9F mag does not have a centrifugal advance mechanism at all.  It

is a fixed mag.  As Dennis Savarese pointed out:  " That would be an

M9-F magneto which has a fixed timing setting of 14-16 degrees before

TDC."



Any mag that DOES have a centrifugal advance mechanism in it will vary

the point where the spark plug fires in relation to the piston position

to top dead center as it moves to the fully advanced position.  Thus

during portions of the engine RPM range, the two spark plugs will be

firing at different times.  There is just no way around it.  So, it is

NEVER a good idea to use one mag with fixed timing and the other with

variable timing.  



But, if you really wanted to do that, a person could take the variable

timing mag apart, move the advance mechanism to full advance, and then

set that mag to match the firing point of the fixed timing mag, so that

at wide open throttle, the two mags would fire the two spark plugs at

exactly the same time, this would then cure the full power problem.  But

of course, then you would simply MOVE the problem to a different RPM

range where once gain as the variable spark timing .... VARIED .....  It

would no longer be synchronous with the other mag.  Simply put, how do

you take two mags, one with variable spark timing and one with fixed

spark timing, and get them both to fire the spark plugs at the same time

through-out the whole RPM range.  



Answer: You don't.  



The problem is exacerbated by the fact that each different type of mag

comes with it's own set of written procedures on how to set the overall

timing of the mag in relation to the piston position on the master

timing cylinder.  There is one set of procedures for the FIXED mag, and

ANOTHER set of procedures for the VARIABLE mag.  



Like I said, if you understood the problem in advance, you could come up

with your OWN procedures that could make the two mags work more or less

together at any certain RPM, including full throttle, but never

throughout the WHOLE range.



In the case of the subject engine that had the performance problem, each

mag was timed the way each mag (individually) was SUPPOSED to be timed,

and the result was that both of them were not firing at the same time

when the engine was at maximum RPM.  



There are indeed RUSSIAN MAGS that also have variable spark timing.  If

you used a Russian Mag with variable mag timing, and a Chinese Mag with

variable valve timing, you still would have to consider the variable

timing rate of change and amount of change, (this is called the timing

curve) and make sure they were matched.  In order to do that, you would

typically spin both units on a machine that would measure these curves,

which is exactly how we used to do it on old racing cars with variable

advance.  



Starting is not an issue with these engines since a completely different

system is used with it's own coil and it's own rotor point, and the

advance is not controlled in any way by the variable mechanism.  



Yes, the variable advance will give a smoother idle, and also a better

transition from low to medium power, especially during very rapid

transitions of the throttle. Both were important, but in cars, the

smooth transition was the major concern.  In airplanes, you can actually

live without any of it, as long as you don't get too eager with the

throttle movement, as evidenced by the fact that the M-9F mag actually

works pretty well.  



Mark Bitterlich



 



--

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 2:03 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

FWIW, the Russian mag (M9-35) with variable or centrifugal  advance timing is timed based on a number stamped in the boss of  the mag under the top cover and cross referenced to a manufacturer's timing  chart.  Virtually all of the M9-35 mags are timed AFTER top dead  center.  Typically close to 5 degrees after TDC.  Now on the other  hand, the Chinese mags, which are also variable or centrifugal advance timing  are also based on a number stamped in the boss of the mag under the top cover  and cross referenced to a timing chart.  However, these mags, after cross  referencing the numbers on the mag to the chart, are timed BEFORE top dead  center.  Typically in the 7-8 degree range before TDC range.  I  would think there would be a much better chance of "reasonable" operation mixing  a Chinese mag with a Russian M9-F fixed timing mag (14-16 degrees BTDC)  than mixing an M9-F mag with any M9-35 mag, given the fact that the  Chinese mag will probably advance to somewhere close to the 14-16 degrees BTDC  when it is fully advanced.

  

 Dennis

  

  

 [quote]   ---

cjpilot710(at)AOL.COM
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

In a message dated 6/23/2009 2:19:03 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil writes:

  

 Mark & all,

  

 The last thing in the world I want to impress on anyone is that I am an  expert on mags.  54 years ago, my Daddy took one look at my wrenching  skills, and told me to become a pilot.  "That way you won't starve to death  and you will not hurt someone".

  

 The real expert (at least the one person I take advice from) is Craig  Payne.  He can tell you the difference between the two mags in  detail.  I sure Doug & Dennis could also.

  

 I did run my M-14p with mixed mags for a period of time, one set (the  Russian) at its normal timing for the M14P and the CJ-6 mag set at a different  sitting (I forget what).  I do know that the Chinese mags allow you to push  the start button with the mags ON, which is not a good idea with the Russian  mags.

  

 I could not really tell any difference in the way the engine ran.  I  perhaps put over 20 or more hours on it like that.  It started fine, had  normal mag drops during run-up.  I could not tell any difference in during  normal power sittings while in cruise.  It just acted normal.

  

 I used just Chinese mags on it for quite a while until one day when the  engine started miss firing very badly while in cruise just a 7 nm from  home.  After some 300 hours of normal operation on that mag, when I took  the cap off, I found that I could spin the rotor easily with my finger.   Taking the mag apart I found that when the Chinese had overhauled the mag, they  had left out the Woodruff key, that kept the gear from spinning on the  shaft.  Only the nut pressure was holding the gear in place and keeping its  timing.  After 300 hours or so, the nut finally loosened and the gear  slipped.  ( I made that last 7nm on one mag).  Except for that missing  Woodruff key, the mag is fine.  It'll need to be re-timed internally  of course, along with adding a Woodruff key.

  

 I also used a mag from a 3 cylinder M-14 pump engine.  The mag is  built the same way but only has a 3 lobe cam.  I took one of the cams from  the Chinese mags and placed in that mag.  Fit perfect.  The only thing  that I noticed was no matter careful I was at sitting up the timing I  always got a 130 to 140 mag drop during run-up.  None at high RPM  sittings.  It was smooth however.  I've put it down to maybe the  internal timing on the 3 Cylinder mag is a little different.

  

 When I finally got my Russian mags over hauled ( a story in it self), I  went back to them.

  

 Quite frankly I believe these damn M-14 will run no matter what you do to  them.  I ran my fresh from the factory M-14 for 438 hours with no oil ring  on number 3 piston!  I guess it was either a Monday with a Vodka hangover  or Ivan, the FNG, on the line. 

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

 [quote]-->    Yak-List message posted by: "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point, MALS-14    64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



Pappy, is this a case where the    Chinese Mag had a spark advance

mechanism and used variable spark timing,    and the other one (The M9) ran

FIXED spark timing?  



I am not    sure if that is the case or not.  I know that some of these

mags run    variable timing and some run fixed.  Running two variables, or

running    two fixed would be fine, but running an engine with one that has

variable    spark timing and one that has fixed spark timing would allow

the engine to    have the plugs firing at two different times in the same

cylinder and that    would be a bad thing.  



This actually happened with one M-14PF    leading to a really difficult to

diagnose high performance problem at full    throttle.  Turned out to be a

mixed mag problem like described    above.  



Not being familiar with the Chinese mags at all, I do not    know which

type of operation they use honestly.  If they are fixed    timing mags with

just a slightly different adjustment procedure, then heck    yes... No

problem mixing them with Russian mags.  But if one is a    variable timing

mag, and one is a fixed timing mag, that would not be a    good thing to do

other than maybe in a "GET IT HOME" kind of emergency...    And to be

honest if I did that, I would fly it on one or the other mag    during the

flight home and not on BOTH.  



Just my 2 cents,    



Mark Bitterlich

--

mbeach(at)hartwigs.com.au
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

Reading the discussion on mags has been interesting but I have a question for the group  has any one replaced the contact points on the CJ mags and if so where Did you get them ?  Is there a automotive replacement ?   

     

REGARDS   

   

MICHAEL BEACH  

  

       [quote][b]

wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:24 pm Post subject: M14P magneto

The available magnetos are;

  

 1. The M9 ( original Russian mag)  This  is an Auto advance magneto with a range of advance from 23 to 27  degs.

  

 2. The Chinese CD5.  This a licence built  version of the M9 and is identical in all respects.

  

 3. The Russian M9-25M. An auto advance mag with a  range of advance settings from 23 to 27 degs.    

  

 4. The Russian M9-35M.  An auto advance mag  with a range of advance settings from 23 to 37 degs.

  

 5. The Russian M9F.  A fixed spark magneto,  ie; NO auto advance. In this respect identical in operation to the Bendix SB9RN,  SB9RN-4 or the American Bosch 9 cyl series.

  

 Each engine model derived from the original  Ivchenko AI 14R has a different specification for ignition timing depending on  power output, RPM and minimum specified fuel grade. This is expressed in degrees  of CRANKSHAFT rotation before top dead centre.

  

 M14P spec. is 23 +/- 1 deg.

 AI  14R            30 +/-  1   "

 HS6                 31 +/- 1   "

 HS6A               27 +/- 1   "   (this may raise some questions as there are  two different references - one the same as the HS6)

 Of course there are many other engines in the  Ivchenko series in addition to the above.

  

 Since these are all geared engines and it  is convenient to measure from the propellor shaft the measured angle is a  function of the reduction gear ratio.

 The corresponding angle for the M14P is therefore  23 x 0.658 or 15.13 +/- 0.7  degs.

  

 The stock M9F mag on the M14 P is set to that  specification and it is a simple matter to exactly synchronize the two  mags.

  

 Synchronizing one M9F to any of the auto  advance mags is, at the very best, a crap shoot. There is simply no way to  accurately measure the precise firing angle of the auto advance  mag.

  

 Each individual AA magneto has it's advance setting  stamped on the housing. For the M9, CD5 and M9-25M that is usually 25 degs. BUT  not necessarily. That must be checked at installation and the timing  adjusted accordingly.

  

 I do not know what the usual is for the  M9-35M.  It can be anywhere from 23 degs to 37degs.  Therefore it is  not totally accurate to state that the M9-35M is set to AFTER TDC. It may very  well be but that is a function of the engine specified angle and the  individual stamped setting on the mag.

  

 I'm sure at least two questions will arise from  this (if anyone is really interested).

  

 1.  What is the difference between the  original M9 and the M9-25M since they have the same advance range and appear  identical?

  

 2.  Why the introduction of the M9-35M with a  full 10 degs. more range?

  

 Truth is I don't know the answers.  But I will  speculate on the first.  Maybe someone can correct me and also answer the  second..

  

 1.  The auto advance mechanism is a set of  fly-weights subject to movement with changing RPM.  This is  counter-balanced by spring pressure.  

 The original engines were of low max. RPM  (2250/2350) while the later M14P and likely others are high RPM  (2900).

 I would suggest that the fly-weight/spring  mechanism has been designed for different ranges of RPM.

  

    

  

  

     

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:10 am Post subject: M14P magneto

As always, Walt's explanation  is perfect.  One point I will make though pertaining to the M9-35 mags,  every one that I have seen over the past 9 years installed on an M14 has been  timed to after TDC.  The numbers stamped in the boss of the mag under the  cover have been "34", "35", "36" and "37".   I have not seen a "33" or  lower number on an M9-35 when installed on an M14.  In case anyone is  interested, here is the timing chart for the M9-35 mag based on the number  stamped in the boss of the mag.



                   

STAMP<?xml:namespace        prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"        />            TIME        TO            

                

23            

2            

BTDC               

24            

2            

BTDC               

25            

1            

BTDC               

26            

1            

BTDC               

27            

0            

                

28            

(1)            

ATDC               

29            

(1)            

ATDC               

30            

(2)            

ATDC               

31            

(2)            

ATDC               

32            

(3)            

ATDC               

33            

(4)            

ATDC               

34            

(4)            

ATDC               

35            

(5)            

ATDC               

36            

(5)            

ATDC               

37            

(6)            

ATDC  

  

 Dennis



  



---

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Re: M14P magneto

Hey Milt,



What kind of real performance are you seeing with the RR?  Also, when you shove both levers in the corner, what's your IAS?



Thanks!



Barry

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:35 am Post subject: M14P magneto

Michael,No automotive points exist which will fit the Chinese CD4, CD 5 or Russian M9 series mags (that I know of).  However, coil, HT rod, and points are interchangeable in all of them.

Always Yakin,

 Doug  



On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Michael Beach <mbeach(at)hartwigs.com.au (mbeach(at)hartwigs.com.au)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                

Reading the discussion on mags has been interesting but I have a question for the group  has any one replaced the contact points on the CJ mags and if so where Did you get them ?  Is there a automotive replacement ?   

     

REGARDS   

   

MICHAEL BEACH  

  

        	  Quote: 	
		  



et="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	


-- 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp

Phone 509-826-4610

Fax 509-826-3644

 

  [quote][b]

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