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Bubbling Paint

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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:56 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

In a message dated 7/7/2009 3:02:36 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  To date,    I have had absolutely no issues with paint  

bubbling but I am    concerned that keeping it outside in very wet  

conditions under a    non-breathable cover may cause problems. 	
  

 Hey Paddy,

  

 For what it's worth, we see paint bubbling on glider fuselage  belly's with both urethane and gel coat finishes occasionally. This is  almost always caused by owners putting the glider in the trailer with  the trailer fuselage support cradle padding wet. This usually happens  when the owner is forced to put the glider away in a hurry due to a  sudden rain storm. The padding gets rain soaked before the glider can be  put away in the dry. If the owner doesn't take the glider out within a few  days and let the padding dry out the paint or gel coat will  bubble. The cradle padding used on Cobra glider trailers is similar to  short pile carpeting. 

  

 We had an ASW-27 come through the shop a couple of months ago with this  exact issue and wet padding on the fuselage cradle was the  obvious cause. The cradle padding was still wet when we pulled it out of  the trailer and the bubbled surface on the belly matched the profile of the  padding exactly. According to the glider's owner the fuselage had been  sitting on the wet padding for about two weeks. The remedy was to sand  out the bubbling with 320, reshoot it, color sand with 600, 800,  and 1200, then buff. A good coat of high quality Carnuba wax on your  finished surfaces would probably help prevent bubbling. Probably wouldn't  eliminate it, but it would help the finish shed water.

  

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying

 An Excellent Credit9x1201462806/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JulyExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

  [quote][b]

rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.n
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

Thanks John for insight" For what it's worth, we see paint bubbling on glider fuselage belly's  with both urethane and gel coat finishes occasionally. This is almost always caused by owners putting the glider in the trailer with the trailer fuselage support cradle padding wet. This usually happens when the owner is forced to put the glider away in a hurry due to a sudden rain storm. The padding gets rain soaked before the glider can be put away in the dry. If the owner  doesn't take the glider out within a few days and let the padding dry out the paint or gel coat will bubble."Has anyone had paint bubble on wings or fuse from letting plane live on Factory open monowheel trailer after it got stuck in rain and didn't dry it?Thx.Ron Parigoris    [quote][b]

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

  

Ron C

  

 I've had my Europa sitting in the rain and sun for many months and the paint is not bubblng. I guess it is only a problem when there is moisture with no ventilation.

 Why should it be a problem ? There are hundreds of thousands of airplanes sitting in the open without paint problems.  And there are millions of cars permanently outdoors for many years C and their paint is usually one-part with a two-part clear coat.

  

 Karl

  

  

  

  

 



 

 



  

  Date: Tue C 7 Jul 2009 12:29:54 -0400

Subject: Re: Re: Bubbling Paint

From: rparigor(at)suffolk.lib.ny.us

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



Thanks John for insight



" For what it's worth C we see paint bubbling on glider fuselage belly's  with both urethane and gel coat finishes occasionally. This is almost always caused by owners putting the glider in the trailer with the trailer fuselage support cradle padding wet. This usually happens when the owner is forced to put the glider away in a hurry due to a sudden rain storm. The padding gets rain soaked before the glider can be put away in the dry. If the owner  doesn't take the glider out within a few days and let the padding dry out the paint or gel coat will bubble."



Has anyone had paint bubble on wings or fuse from letting plane live on Factory open monowheel trailer after it got stuck in rain and didn't dry it?



Thx.

Ron Parigoris



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TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:19 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

In a message dated 7/8/2009 3:02:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Why    should it be a problem ? 	
  

 Hey Karl,

 

I agree, I don't think getting rained on periodically ultimately  causes paint or gel coat bubbling. As you said there are millions of cars and  hundreds of thousands of airplanes that sit in the rain most of their  lives and don't develop blistering. What I was talking about was  moisture being held in constant contact with the finish, as it would  by being in contact with a rain soaked padding over several weeks  and that is indeed what caused the bubbling I described.

  

 We recommend to our customers a periodic application of a  good quality Carnuba wax (like Mother's) or Wx Block (available  from wingsandwheels.com) because it helps the finish shed water and also  provides some UV protection. Makes your bird all nice and shiny, too.

  

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying

 Popular laptop deals plus free shipping!

  [quote][b]

grahamsingleton(at)btinte
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		    

  

 In a message dated 7/8/2009 3:02:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 

 europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:



     Why should it be a problem ?



  

 Hey Karl,



 I agree, I don't think getting rained on periodically ultimately 

 causes paint or gel coat bubbling. As you said there are millions of 

 cars and hundreds of thousands of airplanes that sit in the rain most 

 of their lives and don't develop blistering. What I was talking about 

 was moisture being held in constant contact with the finish, as it 

 would by being in contact with a rain soaked padding over several 

 weeks and that is indeed what caused the bubbling I described.

  

 We recommend to our customers a periodic application of a good 

 quality Carnuba wax (like Mother's) or Wx Block (available from 

 wingsandwheels.com) because it helps the finish shed water and also 

 provides some UV protection. Makes your bird all nice and shiny, too.

  

 Regards,

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying

John
	


Cars and store bought airplanes are metal, blistering is a composites 

problem. If there are any fingerprints, unreacted resins, whatever, on 

the surface before painting osmosis will occur. ALL paint systems are 

permeable. As you say, wax is best

Graham

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

  

John etc. C

  

 I understood your point with the wing sling and trapped moisture. 

 I always wanted to use a polish for extra protection C but I am afraid that it would be very difficult to do any future touchups. My experience with furniture lacquers is C that it is very difficult to re-finish a tabletop where any polish was used containing wax or silicone C even when it is stripped down to the bare wood.

 Your experience seems to indicate that this is not a problem with glider and Europa finishes. Can you confirm that and let us know what you use to prepare the surface for re-painting ? I never used carnuba wax. Is it available in car shops C and do I need a powered polisher for application ? Which polishes are to be avoided ?

  

 Thank you C  Karl

 



 

 



  

  From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com

Date: Wed C 8 Jul 2009 08:15:54 -0400

Subject: Re: Bubbling Paint

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com



  

  

 In a message dated 7/8/2009 3:02:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time C europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Why should it be a problem ? 	
  

 Hey Karl C

 

I agree C I don't think getting rained on periodically ultimately causes paint or gel coat bubbling. As you said there are millions of cars and hundreds of thousands of airplanes that sit in the rain most of their lives and don't develop blistering. What I was talking about was moisture being held in constant contact with the finish C as it would by being in contact with a rain soaked padding over several weeks and that is indeed what caused the bubbling I described.

  

 We recommend to our customers a periodic application of a good quality Carnuba wax (like Mother's) or Wx Block (available from wingsandwheels.com) because it helps the finish shed water and also provides some UV protection. Makes your bird all nice and shiny C too.

  

 Regards C

  

 John Lawton

 Whitwell C TN (TN89)

 N245E - Flying

 

  l?redir=http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/12309-81939-1629-2">Popular laptop deals plus free shipping!

[quote]



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ronics.com
	


ww.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:21 am Post subject: Bubbling paint

In a message dated 7/9/2009 3:02:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>Cars and store bought airplanes are metal,    blistering is a composites 

problem. If there are any fingerprints,    unreacted resins, whatever, on 

the surface before painting osmosis will    occur. ALL paint systems are 

permeable. As you say, wax is    best<<<<< 	

 Hey Graham,

 Yes, a lot of them are metal, but blistering can occur on metal airplanes,  too. My father owned a Mooney back when I was a teenager. The airplane was less  than 2 years old and developed blisters on both wings. He sent it back to the  factory in Texas to have it fixed and unfortunately, it was destroyed in a  hail storm. Although that airplane sat out in the weather constantly the  blistering probably had little to do with rain and everything to do with paint  preparation. Gel coat is bad about blistering on boats that are in the water  constantly. I've owned a couple of sail boats that were docked permanently in  water and both developed blisters on the hull below the waterline after a  while in the water.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>I always wanted to use a polish  for extra protection=2C but I am afraid tha

t it would be very difficult to  do any future touchups. My experience with 

furniture lacquers is=2C that it  is very difficult to re-finish a tabletop 

where any polish was used  containing wax or silicone=2C even when it is str

ipped down to the bare  wood.<<<<<<

 Hey Karl, 

 The one thing you want to avoid at all costs is any finish enhancer that  contains silicone. That goes for DOT 5 brake fluid, too. Silicone is  extremely hard to get off once it's on the finish. Even sanding thoroughly won't  get it all off. There are silicone removers available. Most major paint  manufacturers make them in one form or another. We've tried a variety  of them with mixed results. Repeated wiping with acetone in between sanding  seems to work best, but we still get paint rejection from time to time. It's a  real bitch sometimes and requires several cycles of painting and sanding to  get the paint to stick if silicone is present. We've never had  problems with bubbling or paint rejection after we got the paint or gel  coat to stick, though.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>Your experience  seems to indicate that this is not a problem with glider an

d Europa  finishes. Can you confirm that and let us know what you use to pre

pare the  surface for re-painting ? I never used carnuba wax. Is it availabl

e in car  shops=2C and do I need a powered polisher for application ? Which 

polishes  are to be avoided ?<<<<<<

 Carnuba wax is a high quality car wax and it seems to produce the best  results. We use it on both urethane and gel coat finishes. Wx Block is  also good, but it's pricey. Some folks prefer wax, others like Wx Block.  Personally, I like wax better because it shines better. You can usually  find a good Carnuba wax at any decent auto parts store. Expect to pay  around $10-$12 a tin for it. We use the paste type Carnuba. Carnuba also will  wipe off with acetone and/or sanding. 

 We tell folks to avoid anything with silicone, sillica or similar  ingredients, though. Use of such products will be troublesome later on if you  need to do a repair. As I previously mentioned this is why we do not recommend  furniture polishes for canopies, but rather plexiglass wax. Canopy rails are  usually the first place paint or gel coat will chip because they flex and there  are different expansion and contraction rates for the fiberglass rail and the  plexiglass canopy. This usually causes a crack to form at the edge where the two  meet. Chips usually follow.  Silicone products, even though they are  slippery, also seem to tend to hold a slight electric charge which tends to  cause dust to stick to the surface. We saw that one play out a couple of years  ago at a glider meet out in Uvalde, TX. There was one guy in the field of  competitors who wiped his whole glider down every day with furniture  polish. Uvalde is desert conditions and there is a lot of dust. By the end  of the meet his glider was a dust magnet. No one else at the meet was having the  problem. 

 The wax is applied by hand, but you don't necessarily have to use a buffer  once it's ready to wipe out, but it does help melt the wax and gain a better  application and a much better shine. I would not use an orbiting type buffer,  though. Those type buffers will create swirls in your paint. We build  our own buffers out of a variable speed 7" die grinder. We use 9"  flannel buffing pads stacked up about 5" thick. You can get "threaded collars"  to fit the arbor of the grinder at virtually any hardware store to lengthen  the grinder arbor shaft by about 3". First, put on a big fender washer,  then the collar. Then, we add about 5" thick of 9" flannel  buffing pads to the shaft. We really pack the pads on the shaft and  sometimes it involves using a hammer to beat them onto the shaft so they  are good and tight. Then, another big fender washer and a bolt  that mates to the other end of the threaded collar. Buffing is done end on. This  way it does not create swirls, only shine. 

 You have to pay particular attention when you are buffing control surfaces  and near leading and trailing edges. It's best to buff those parallel to the  wing or control surface for safety. If you buff 90 degrees to the control  surface or wing edge and aren't very careful it's easy to catch on the  edge of a wing or control surface like an aileron or elevator if you don't  pay attention to the direction of rotation and you can damage the surface.  I also "bump" the trigger repeatedly so that the buffer doesn't get going too  fast when I'm near the edge. Some grinders spin too fast for buffing, so we  use a router speed control to provide better control the RPM.

  When buffing near the edge make sure the direction of rotation is  outward from the surface's edge. If the rotation is inward toward the edge  you risk the buffer grabbing. I've twice seen ailerons literally torn off  by folks who weren't paying attention. You don't have to put much pressure on  the buffer, either. Usually, it's own weight is enough to do the job. It will  give your forearms a good workout, though. I can send you some pictures of the  buffers we use if you'd like.

 Hope it helps!

Regards,

 John Lawton

 Whitwell, TN (TN89)

N245E - Flying

 Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer

  [quote][b]

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 6:26 am Post subject: Bubbling paint

John- 

  

Could you bring some of this stuff, such as your home-made buffer, to Rough River and demo it?  I think we could all learn a few things.  

  

Jim Puglise

 

  

---

kheindl(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: Bubbling paint

Hi John C

 Thank you for the very comprehensive reply. I can't quite picture your homemade polisher.

 I and I am sure others would be very interested in a picture if that is possible. I have a random orbit variable speed 7" Bosch sanding tool C but with afoam pad it can also be adapted for polishing. 

 Karl

  From: TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com

Date: Thu C 9 Jul 2009 09:15:21 -0400

Subject: Re: Bubbling paint

To: europa-list(at)matronics.com

 In a message dated 7/9/2009 3:02:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time C europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>Cars and store bought airplanes are metal C blistering is a composites 

problem. If there are any fingerprints C unreacted resins C whatever C on 

the surface before painting osmosis will occur. ALL paint systems are 

permeable. As you say C wax is best<<<<< 	

 Hey Graham C

 Yes C a lot of them are metal C but blistering can occur on metal airplanes C too. My father owned a Mooney back when I was a teenager. The airplane was less than 2 years old and developed blisters on both wings. He sent it back to the factory in Texas to have it fixed and unfortunately C it was destroyed in a hail storm. Although that airplane sat out in the weather constantly the blistering probably had little to do with rain and everything to do with paint preparation. Gel coat is bad about blistering on boats that are in the water constantly. I've owned a couple of sail boats that were docked permanently in water and both developed blisters on the hull below the waterline after a while in the water.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>I always wanted to use a polish for extra protection=2C but I am afraid tha

t it would be very difficult to do any future touchups. My experience with 

furniture lacquers is=2C that it is very difficult to re-finish a tabletop 

where any polish was used containing wax or silicone=2C even when it is str

ipped down to the bare wood.<<<<<<

 Hey Karl C 

 The one thing you want to avoid at all costs is any finish enhancer that contains silicone. That goes for DOT 5 brake fluid C too. Silicone is extremely hard to get off once it's on the finish. Even sanding thoroughly won't get it all off. There are silicone removers available. Most major paint manufacturers make them in one form or another. We've tried a variety of them with mixed results. Repeated wiping with acetone in between sanding seems to work best C but we still get paint rejection from time to time. It's a real bitch sometimes and requires several cycles of painting and sanding to get the paint to stick if silicone is present. We've never had problems with bubbling or paint rejection after we got the paint or gel coat to stick C though.

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>Your experience seems to indicate that this is not a problem with glider an

d Europa finishes. Can you confirm that and let us know what you use to pre

pare the surface for re-painting ? I never used carnuba wax. Is it availabl

e in car shops=2C and do I need a powered polisher for application ? Which 

polishes are to be avoided ?<<<<<<

 Carnuba wax is a high quality car wax and it seems to produce the best results. We use it on both urethane and gel coat finishes. Wx Block is also good C but it's pricey. Some folks prefer wax C others like Wx Block. Personally C I like wax better because it shines better. You can usually find a good Carnuba wax at any decent auto parts store. Expect to pay around $10-$12 a tin for it. We use the paste type Carnuba. Carnuba also will wipe off with acetone and/or sanding. 

 We tell folks to avoid anything with silicone C sillica or similar ingredients C though. Use of such products will be troublesome later on if you need to do a repair. As I previously mentioned this is why we do not recommend furniture polishes for canopies C but rather plexiglass wax. Canopy rails are usually the first place paint or gel coat will chip because they flex and there are different expansion and contraction rates for the fiberglass rail and the plexiglass canopy. This usually causes a crack to form at the edge where the two meet. Chips usually follow.  Silicone products C even though they are slippery C also seem to tend to hold a slight electric charge which tends to cause dust to stick to the surface. We saw that one play out a couple of years ago at a glider meet out in Uvalde C TX. There was one guy in the field of competitors who wiped his whole glider down every day with furniture polish. Uvalde is desert conditions and there is a lot of dust. By the end of the meet his glider was a dust magnet. No one else at the meet was having the problem. 

 The wax is applied by hand C but you don't necessarily have to use a buffer once it's ready to wipe out C but it does help melt the wax and gain a better application and a much better shine. I would not use an orbiting type buffer C though. Those type buffers will create swirls in your paint. We build our own buffers out of a variable speed 7" die grinder. We use 9" flannel buffing pads stacked up about 5" thick. You can get "threaded collars" to fit the arbor of the grinder at virtually any hardware store to lengthen the grinder arbor shaft by about 3". First C put on a big fender washer C then the collar. Then C we add about 5" thick of 9" flannel buffing pads to the shaft. We really pack the pads on the shaft and sometimes it involves using a hammer to beat them onto the shaft so they are good and tight. Then C another big fender washer and a bolt that mates to the other end of the threaded collar. Buffing is done end on. This way it does not create swirls C only shine. 

 You have to pay particular attention when you are buffing control surfaces and near leading and trailing edges. It's best to buff those parallel to the wing or control surface for safety. If you buff 90 degrees to the control surface or wing edge and aren't very careful it's easy to catch on the edge of a wing or control surface like an aileron or elevator if you don't pay attention to the direction of rotation and you can damage the surface. I also "bump" the trigger repeatedly so that the buffer doesn't get going too fast when I'm near the edge. Some grinders spin too fast for buffing C so we use a router speed control to provide better control the RPM.

  When buffing near the edge make sure the direction of rotation is outward from the surface's edge. If the rotation is inward toward the edge you risk the buffer grabbing. I've twice seen ailerons literally torn off by folks who weren't paying attention. You don't have to put much pressure on the buffer C either. Usually C it's own weight is enough to do the job. It will give your forearms a good workout C though. I can send you some pictures of the buffers we use if you'd like.

 Hope it helps!

Regards C

 John Lawton

 Whitwell C TN (TN89)

N245E - Flying

  l?redir=http://altfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/12309-81939-1629-3">Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer

[quote]

 	  Quote: 	
		  http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List

ronics.com

ww.matronics.com/contribution

[b]

n914va(at)bvunet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: Bubbling paint

Think of taking a buffing wheel off of a bench grinder and putting a shaft  thru it, then chucking it in a drill and you will get the idea. You buff with  what is essentially the outside surface of a cylinder, not the area of a circle  as with an orbital buffer.

  

 Vaughn

 I've seen his work and it is beautiful

 [quote]   ---

TELEDYNMCS(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

In a message dated 7/10/2009 3:02:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  europa-list(at)matronics.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  >>>>>>Could you bring some of this stuff, such as    your home-made buffer, to Rough

River and demo it?=C2- I think we could all    learn a few things. <<<<<< 	
  

 Hey Jim,

 

Will do. I brought my buffers to the first Rough River gathering, but  there was nowhere to plug in close enough to where the airplanes were parked, so  I wasn't able to demo the buffing procedure. I'm sure there has to be an outlet  somewhere in the bathhouse there by the ramp, though. If we can find a place  close enough to plug in I'd be happy to demo how to buff paint and  plexiglass. I'll bring them regardless so that folks can see how they are  built. I will also explain the issues with buffing near edges and  how it relates to direction of rotation of the buffing pads, too.

  

 Regards,

  

 John  Lawton

Whitwell, TN (TN89)

N245E -  Flying

 A Good Credit Score is 70201367232/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JulystepsfooterNO62>See yours in just 2 easy steps!

  [quote][b]

jimpuglise(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:19 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

John- 

  

Thanks.  BTW, my aux fuel pump arrived this week.  Heavy little bugger, isn't it?  I also got on the Dynon page and I will be able to monitor fuel pressure on the Dynon.  I am putting the drive pins on my trim tabs this week, so it is moving along.  After that, I will get the rudder reinforcements, rudder post and comm antenna in, then it is time to hang the engine.  

  

Jim  



---

peterandbettyharrod(at)bt
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:10 am Post subject: Bubbling Paint

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