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heisan
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 22
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project.
Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating.
I would like to use automotive blade fuses. It is easy to visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are colour coded, so ratings are a snap.
Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them?
Thanks,
Justin
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frank.hinde(at)hp.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Nope and just about every experimantal in the sky is using blade fuses and on multi fuse bases.
They work great..You can eve get indicating fuses that light up once they have blown..No real purpose to those however.
Frank
RV7a
--
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stein(at)steinair.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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That is really what you should be using (is ATO blade type fuses) over the
glass fuses. From our experience, using glass fuses has many negatives and
they aren't something we'd really recommend for airplanes anymore.
One big benefit to the blad fuses is now you can get them with tiny LED's in
them that illuminate when the fuse "blows", basicacally you can see at a
glance if the fuse blow because it'll be lighted.
Cheers,
Stein
[quote]--
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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I am using blade fuses in my RV10 project but I can't speak to
advantages/disadvantages other than cost when compared to breakers. I
think you will find lot's of support here for these fuses and fuses in
general.
However, I had the same thought about my flaps. As a result, I will
have 4 pullable breakers in my Z-14
1) Flaps (so they can be reset)
2) Autopilot controllers and servo (as an emergency off switch)
3) LR3C Alternator Regulator number 1
4) LR3C " " number 2
I've built the panel, wired the fuse panel, and wired the breakers. So
far, so good with the plan.
Bill Watson
heisan wrote:
Quote: |
I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my project.
Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are fiddly, and it is difficult to determine the rating.
I would like to use automotive blade fuses. It is easy to visually identify a blown fuse, easy to replace, and they are colour coded, so ratings are a snap.
Are there any disadvantages to using them, or any reasons not to use them?
Thanks,
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52841#252841
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khorton01(at)rogers.com Guest
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Posted: Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:07 pm Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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On 13 Jul 2009, at 17:19, heisan wrote:
Quote: |
>
I am rapidly heading towards doing the electrical system on my
project.
Since having a flap fuse blow during a go-around, not being able to
climb away until I replaced the fuse, I have decided that I would
not like to use standard glass fuses. The holders are fiddly, and
it is difficult to determine the rating.
|
You really ought to limit the full flap angle such that you can safely
do a go-around with flaps down, if needed, as there are a whole bunch
of other reasons why you could be unable to retract them someday -
e.g. flap motor failure, flap switch failure, ground wire failure,
shorted wiring, etc.
The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered
independently from the flap failure on go around case.
--
Kevin Horton (Grounded)
RV-8 (Flight Test Phase)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:51 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Quote: |
The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered
independently from the flap failure on go around case.
|
Absolutely! Over the years I've received many e-mails
where the builder was concerned about being able to
"reset" a tripped current protection while citing some
personal experience or perhaps a dark-n-stormy-night
story where resetting breakers was part of the script.
I'll refer new readers to the following discussions
from years past . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/failtoll.pdf
The short answer to the fuses vs. breakers question
asks the builder to consider that there are far
more events that cause a system to stop working
that DO NOT trip the circuit protection than events
that DO trip the circuit protection.
Over-current trips are for protection of the
airframe from smoke and fire caused by faulted wires.
The properly sized circuit protection will never
nuisance trip. I.e., when it DOES trip, that
system is telling you that it's out of the
ball game. It's time to call in the relief
pitcher. Inclusion of pilot resetable circuit
protection with any notions of increasing
system reliability is wishful thinking.
In the OBAM aviation world we can FIX a nuisance
tripping system by up-sizing the protection and
wire size before the next flight. In the TC
aircraft world, you need to get permission
and then spend a lot of money to do it.
Isn't that one of several reasons we're all
here talking about it on the List?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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heisan
Joined: 19 May 2008 Posts: 22
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Thanks everybody.
When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!
Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.
Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between.
Thanks,
Justin
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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At 04:59 PM 7/13/2009, you wrote:
Quote: |
That is really what you should be using (is ATO blade type fuses) over the
glass fuses. From our experience, using glass fuses has many negatives and
they aren't something we'd really recommend for airplanes anymore.
|
Absolutely! These have fragile internal connections at
the ends of the fusible links . . . they also used large
area, low pressure connections in their holders. Not
gas-tight.
Quote: | One big benefit to the blade fuses is now you can get them with tiny LED's in
them that illuminate when the fuse "blows", basicacally you can see at a
glance if the fuse blow because it'll be lighted.
|
. . . assuming that circuit is "turned on". Fuse
popping in a properly sized protection scheme is
exceedingly rare. How many times have any of us
replaced fuses in our cars over the past 20 years?
I've had two such experiences. Both involved fuses
that were blown for cause . . . i.e. something
wrong in the protected system. My wife's cars
have yet to present such opportunities. If you
deduce that ANY system in your airplane is necessary
for comfortable termination of flight, then one
is well advised to have a plan-b for any and
all such systems. I.e., being able to replace
fuses or re-set breakers is NOT a plan.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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jimw_btg(at)earthlink.net Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:40 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Justin
There are several but I have my best luck with Waytek, Inc. very good quality and price, also they have the blade fuses with "SMART FUSE" indicator. Happy building. www.wyatekwire.com Take Care.
Jim Wickert
Vision #159 CL 4.5
"Vision" some will have some will not.
--
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rlborger(at)mac.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:43 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Justin,
B&C has several fuse holders and fuse sets available:
http://www.bandc.biz/index.aspx
As does SteinAir:
http://www.steinair.com/
And probably other good dealers as well.
Bob Borger
On Tuesday, July 14, 2009, at 08:06AM, "heisan" <justin(at)expertron.co.za> wrote:
Quote: |
Thanks everybody.
When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!
Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.
Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between.
Thanks,
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52936#252936
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echristley(at)nc.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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heisan wrote:
Generally, search eBay for "ATC fuse holder".
--
http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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I got mine from B&C. Their inventory is limited to exactly what you
need. I'm sure with some effort, everything can be found elsewhere and
found cheaper perhaps.
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/
heisan wrote:
Quote: |
Thanks everybody.
When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!
Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.
Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between.
Thanks,
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 52936#252936
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peterlaurence6(at)gmail.c Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Try http://www.mihdirect.biz/
Peter
I got mine from B&C. Their inventory is limited to exactly what you
need. I'm sure with some effort, everything can be found elsewhere and
found cheaper perhaps.
http://www.bandcspecialty.com/
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MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:45 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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I've adopted the fuse approach in my RV10 project with 2 fuse holders in
the passenger's foot well.
I did put a resettable breaker in for the flaps. My thinking at the
timee was that the flap motor could be overpowered by actuation at
excessive speeds. Of course, if the plane is flown properly, the whole
issue is avoided. And failure in such a circumstance would probably
result in the flaps failing in a very flyable condition. So I assume
it's probably unnecessary. It was just the only scenario I could come
up with for a resettable breaker (I have 3 others - AP as an emergency
disconnect, and 2 for the LR3Cs)
2 days ago, I think I got a lesson in what is meant by "The properly
sized circuit protection will never nuisance trip". During some
testing in the shop, I left my panel powered on an hour or so. When I
returned, one display was dark. I check the fuse and found it had
blown. A few minutes later, the other 2 displays re-booted and
eventually shut themselves down. What happened?
Turns out that 1 of my batteries (Odyssesy 680s) had lost a cell. I
hadn't expected that but in retrospect, the battery had been abused.
It's 2 years old and it's been left for long periods of time at less
than full charge. I think the last straw may be hooking up the
'always-on' circuits for the 3 display unit clocks (GRT HX) and
continuing an irregular charging schedule.
While the GRT displays will run at less than 14 or 12 volts, the current
goes up as the voltage drops. It appears that with a failed cell, the
voltage was down to 10.5 volts or less and the current increased to a
point that blew the 3 amp blade fuse. Cautiously, I put a 2 amp fuse in
the holder and that blew immediately.
Later, I used my crossfeed switch on my Z14 configuration and the panel
operated normally. It was arguably a nuisance trip.
What I take away from this is that even though the GRT manuals indicate
that at least a 2 amp fuse is required with a 5 amp max fuse for the
circuit, the best solution would be to size the fuse to protect the wire
(5 for awg20, 10 for awg 1. The GRT manuals also state that the units
are internally protected against internal faults which suggests that the
external fuse is only in place to protect the circuit.
What I also take away is that if I had a battery cell failure in the
air, I would be very busy with a display failed by an unnecessarily
blown fuse. Even with a Z14 with dual busses and batteries. Robust
sizing for wire protection would limit failures to internal unit faults
which takes the whole fuse box out of the equation.
My plan is to strictly size the fuses for wire protection so I can take
full advantage of the Z14's redundancy.
List, what do you think?
Thanks Bob,
Bill Watson
Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote: |
<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>
>
> The type of wire over current protection to use should be considered
> independently from the flap failure on go around case.
Absolutely! Over the years I've received many e-mails
where the builder was concerned about being able to
"reset" a tripped current protection while citing some
personal experience or perhaps a dark-n-stormy-night
story where resetting breakers was part of the script.
I'll refer new readers to the following discussions
from years past . . .
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fuseorcb.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/fusvbkr2.html
http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/failtoll.pdf
The short answer to the fuses vs. breakers question
asks the builder to consider that there are far
more events that cause a system to stop working
that DO NOT trip the circuit protection than events
that DO trip the circuit protection.
Over-current trips are for protection of the
airframe from smoke and fire caused by faulted wires.
The properly sized circuit protection will never
nuisance trip. I.e., when it DOES trip, that
system is telling you that it's out of the
ball game. It's time to call in the relief
pitcher. Inclusion of pilot resetable circuit
protection with any notions of increasing
system reliability is wishful thinking.
In the OBAM aviation world we can FIX a nuisance
tripping system by up-sizing the protection and
wire size before the next flight. In the TC
aircraft world, you need to get permission
and then spend a lot of money to do it.
Isn't that one of several reasons we're all
here talking about it on the List?
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
|
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frank.hinde(at)hp.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Yup..Stein air and there are many automotive outlets that have them..Try summit racing or Jc whitney etc.,,I even found my local autozone have them.
There are some wonderful A&P's around but you have to remember that they are taught that everything that is FAA mandated is good and anything designed after 1940 is BAAAAD..thats why we still have vacuum pumps on cessna's which give about the same odds for survival in IMC as playing Russian roulette...Ok slight exageration maybe..
Frank RV7a electrically dependant, no mechanical fuel pump, no mags and flys in IMC!
--
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peterlaurence6(at)gmail.c Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse?
Peter
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longg(at)pjm.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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Justin,
Pegasus offers the same item as B & C at a competitive cost. As much of
the OBAM stuff is derived from auto racing they also sell a lot of other
things you'll need to make that bird fly. They're stock is high quality
and they normally ship the same day.
http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=4402
Glenn
--
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thorps18(at)gmail.com Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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A couple good sources for electrical supplies:
http://www.bandc.biz/electricalsupplies.aspx
http://www.steinair.com/store.htm
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 6:06 AM, heisan <justin(at)expertron.co.za (justin(at)expertron.co.za)> wrote:
[quote] --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "heisan" <justin(at)expertron.co.za (justin(at)expertron.co.za)>
Thanks everybody.
When I asked around here, everybody uses glass fuses or breakers. Two A&Ps I chatted to said blade fuses were a bad idea (basically because it is difficult to make the pretty!
Nice to know that they will work, and are safe to use.
Does anybody know of an on-line shop that sells decent blade fuse holders? Options here are few and far between.
Thanks,
Justin
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=252936#252936
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rv8iator
Joined: 11 Apr 2006 Posts: 145 Location: Newberg, OR
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:16 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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My personal favorite...
http://tinyurl.com/nnmgg5
This is the Bussman 20 circuit/ two buss panel mount ATC/ATO fuse block.
Stienair and BandC have the surface mount styles for the same fuses.
Chris Stone
RV-8
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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect Guest
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Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 8:39 am Post subject: Automotive blade fuses? |
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At 10:44 AM 7/14/2009, you wrote:
Quote: | --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "plaurence" <peterlaurence6(at)gmail.com>
Is there such a thing as a slo blow ATO fuse? |
No. When you need slow-blow characteristics
it's usually associated with hi-inrush and
or wildly variable current demands. Pitot
heaters, hydraulic pumps, etc come to mind.
For this we recommend MANL style current
limiters like . . .
[img]cid:7.1.0.9.0.20090714113240.01e7f670(at)aeroelectric.com.0[/img]
These have very long time constants.
Bob . . .
---------------------------------------
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
---------------------------------------
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