Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - owner performed maintenance

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

owner performed maintenance
Goto page 1, 2 Next

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:26 pm Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Bought a kit and wondered what you can do yourself? Here's a brief article that

describes those 31 allowable things you can do if you hold a pilot's certificate under

part 61.



<http://www.globalair.com/articles/cox/article.asp>



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"Back in the thirties we were told we must collectivize the

nation because the people were so poor. Now we are told we must

collectivize the nation because the people are so rich."

-- National Review founder William F. Buckley Jr. (1925-2008)



If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what

it costs when it's free!

-- P.J. O'Rourke



"Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you

resolve."

-- Benjamin Franklin

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Note that in the "It's an Experimental, but I didn't build it myself."

section the author has missed one very important recent change to the rules:

if you buy or own an ELSA (Experimental Light Sport) certificated aircraft

you can take a 16 hour course and earn a Repairman's Certificate that has

all the privileges and advantages of being the repairman for the kit plane

you built yourself.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: owner performed maintenance

At 01:19 PM 7/14/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Bought a kit and wondered what you can do yourself?


	


I'm confused. If you bought a kit, and you finish it, you can do ALL 

the maintenance. If you bought an experimental aircraft you can do 

everything BUT the annual. (Conditional inspection.)

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:44 pm Post subject: owner performed maintenance

On Tue, July 14, 2009 3:53 pm, Guy Buchanan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 At 01:19 PM 7/14/2009, you wrote:

>Bought a kit and wondered what you can do yourself?



 I'm confused. If you bought a kit, and you finish it, you can do ALL

 the maintenance.


	


..and the conditional inspection too as long as you applied for and were granted the

Repairman's Certificate.



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you bought an experimental aircraft you can do

 everything BUT the annual. (Conditional inspection.)


	


If you buy an experimental aircraft built by someone else, you have no additional

rights at all, just the 31 things you can do on any aircraft certificated or

otherwise.



The article didn't address Light Sport Aircraft fully as Bob Brennan pointed out.



You can only do those 31 specified tasks if you are a pilot having attained a license

under part 61. Not just anybody can do the limited routine maintenance. Seems odd to

me that they restrict any activity requiring you to recompute weight and balance yet

being able to do so is a specific requirement under part 61.



-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from

one party of the citizens to give to the other.

-- Voltaire (1764)



PARODY EXPRESSED - GOV'T IN 2009



A fellow citizen recently offered this parody on our elected Federal

Government: "I think the government will do a better job of spending my money

than I could. When we pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq, I know the Islamic

terrorists will stop trying to kill us. I believe people who can't tell us if

it will rain in two or three days can now tell us the polar ice caps will

disappear in a century if we don't comply with Orwellian government economic

oversight. English has no place being the official language in America. I'd

rather pay $4 for a gallon of gas than allow drilling for oil off the coasts of

America or in that vast Alaskan wasteland, ANWR. 'Big Oil's' five-percent

profit on a gallon of gas is obscene, but the government tax of 18 to 35

percent on the same gallon of gas is just fine."



The parody continues: "I believe businesses in America should not be allowed to

make profit -- it should be confiscated by the government so politicians and

bureaucrats can redistribute that profit as they see fit. I believe guns cause

crimes and murder, not the sociopaths using them, and, thus, should be

confiscated. Besides, when someone threatens my family, I know the government

can respond faster with a call to 911 than I can with a gun in my hand. We

should be able to marry whomever or whatever we want. It's a right to kill

millions of babies while objecting to the death penalty for murderers. I

believe five elitist liberal judges should rewrite the Constitution by diktat

to suit Leftist agendas that could never pass proper amendment. Freedom of

speech and religion are fine as long as nobody is offended by it."

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:24 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Guy is correct. If you buy an experimental and you are not the original builder, you can do all the maintenance but have to have an A&P do the annual(conditional). You do not have to be an A&P to do the maintenance items. This has been this way for about 40-50 years and has not changed. (certainly thru the 10 experimentals I have owned)

  There are some things that would have to have FAA/DAR approval( ie: new airworthness cert.) but generally you can do it all.

                                                                 Dick Maddux

                                                                 Fox 4

                                                                 Milton Fl

  

  

                             

 Can love help you live longer? Find out now.

  [quote][b]

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

When I received my FAA approval and got my paperwork for my Fox, I was told 

that I had to apply for a specific, my plane only, A&P license which I did. 

They told me that without it, I could not do my own condition inspection 

even though I built the plane.  Is this true?   I have just assumed it to 

be.



Ron



 	  Quote: 	
		   At 01:19 PM 7/14/2009, you wrote:

>Bought a kit and wondered what you can do yourself?



 I'm confused. If you bought a kit, and you finish it, you can do ALL the 

 maintenance. If you bought an experimental aircraft you can do everything 

 BUT the annual. (Conditional inspection.)

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

rliebmann(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:15 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

When I received my FAA approval and got my paperwork for my Fox, I was told 

that I had to apply for a specific, my plane only, A&P license which I did. 

They told me that without it, I could not do my own condition inspection 

even though I built the plane.  Is this true?   I have just assumed it to 

be.



Ron



 	  Quote: 	
		   At 01:19 PM 7/14/2009, you wrote:

>Bought a kit and wondered what you can do yourself?



 I'm confused. If you bought a kit, and you finish it, you can do ALL the 

 maintenance. If you bought an experimental aircraft you can do everything 

 BUT the annual. (Conditional inspection.)

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

Fox5flyer
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:41 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

I think that is basically true, Ron, except that it's a Repairman's 

Certificate rather than A&P.  I think that if you don't tell your inspector 

you want one and he doesn't offer it, you don't get one.  You have to apply. 

It's just a form.

Deke



---

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Looking at my own certificate, it says specifically:

Ratings:

	Repairman Light Sport Aircraft

Limitations:

	Inspection, Airplane, N# and Ser#



which means I can legally repair and inspect (annual condition) my airplane,

and only my airplane. There is very specific wording that needs to be used

for the inspection in the log book along with my certificate number for the

airplane to be legal to fly.



The only difference I believe for a certificate for someone who has built an

airplane themselves is that the Rating will read "Repairman Experimental

Amateur Built" and the qualification for the certificate is that the builder

has "demonstrated proficiency" to an FAA representative, usually the DAR at

the time of airworthiness certification. I had to take a 16 hour course and

pass a test since I did not build the airplane.



Hope that helps...



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa  



--

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

On Wed, July 15, 2009 5:21 am, Catz631(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Guy is correct.


	


Probably, he usually says stuff you can bank on.



I didn't make the situation clear in my original posting. I said "kit" when I meant

"kit built by someone else".



 	  Quote: 	
		   If you buy an experimental and you are not the original

 builder, you can do all the maintenance but have to have an A&P do the

 annual(conditional).


	


Not exactly. You can only do preventative maintenance to the same extent as you can on

a certificated aircraft, if and only if you hold a pilots certificate under part 61 or

are an A&P. Preventative maintenance is limited to the 31 items specified in I.A.W.

cfr. 14, FAR 43, Appendix A, and you do not operate your aircraft under part 121, 127,

129, or 135.



 	  Quote: 	
		   You do not have to be an A&P to do the maintenance items. This

 has been this way for about 40-50 years and has not changed. (certainly thru

 the 10 experimentals I have owned)

  There are some things that would have to have FAA/DAR approval( ie: new

 airworthness cert.) but generally you can do it all.


	


Not so, the list is very limited. Just the 31 Preventative Maintenance items:



What is Preventative Maintenance?

"Preventive maintenance" means:

simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts

not involving complex assembly operations.



The list is spelled out clearly in the original link I posted:



<http://www.globalair.com/articles/cox/article.asp>



I would agree that you can probably get away with doing quite a bit but even

recovering other than a minor patch not requiring rib lacing is prohibited, for

example. The regulations specify that if you are not the original builder or an A&P

you have no more rights to repair an experimental than a certificated aircraft.



I am not an expert and don't want to be the arbiter of issues here. I just presented

what the apparent expert says.



There are nine domestic FAA Regions that are home to 83 Flight Standards District

Offices (FSDO's) in the U.S.A. Each FSDO is staffed by knowledgeable Maintenance

Inspectors, who have been trained to oversee, assist and provide you with guidance in

the field of aircraft maintenance. To get the location of your FSDO office, call the

FAA Aviation Safety Hotline at: 1-866-835-53222.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"Men, to act with vigour and effect, must have time to mature measures,

and judgment and experience, as to the best method of applying them.

They must not be hurried on to their conclusions by the passions, or the

fears of the multitude. They must deliberate, as well as resolve."

-- Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, January 6, 1833



The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the

blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing

of misery.

-- Winston Churchill



"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure

when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them."

-- Patrick Henry

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Same experience here, Ron, but mine states that (my name) "has been  

found to be properly qualified to exercise the privileges of  

Repairman Experimental Aircraft Builder."  On the back side, under  

item XIII Limitations it says: "Inspection certificate for  

experimental aircraft make Matteson Lynn C, model Kitfox IV-1200  

serial number ADU150, certification date: 11 Mar 2006."



With this I can do anything on my plane that I want to, including the  

annual condition inspection.



Just to split hairs, I don't think you got an actual *A&P  

license*...that one takes some time in study, apprenticeship (I  

think), and on-job training. At least that's what I've been told by  

people who have one. I've been working with an A&P/IA on restoring  

some of his planes, and while not really looking into the printed  

steps and hoops to jump through, I've decided not to pursue this  

aspect. I'll just get all the experience I can from him and call it a  

day. : )



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 704.4 hrs

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying





On Jul 15, 2009, at 11:08 AM, Ron Liebmann wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rliebmann(at)comcast.net>



 When I received my FAA approval and got my paperwork for my Fox, I  

 was told that I had to apply for a specific, my plane only, A&P  

 license which I did. They told me that without it, I could not do  

 my own condition inspection even though I built the plane.  Is this  

 true?   I have just assumed it to be.



 Ron

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

On Wed, July 15, 2009 8:08 am, Ron Liebmann wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 When I received my FAA approval and got my paperwork for my Fox, I was told

 that I had to apply for a specific, my plane only, A&P license which I did.

 They told me that without it, I could not do my own condition inspection

 even though I built the plane.  Is this true?   I have just assumed it to be.


	


It's not an "A&P License" it is called a Repairman's Certificate.



Reference cfr 14, FAR Section 65.104

To be eligible for a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder), an

individual must:



   1. Be at least 18 years of age;

   2. Be the primary builder of the aircraft to which the privileges of the

certificate are applicable in the case of an Experimental Aircraft. In the case of

a Light Sport Aircraft the applicant must undergo 120 hours of classroom training

for an Airplane, 104 hours for a Weight-shift Control or Powered Parachute, and 80

hours for a Lighter than Air, or Glider;

   3. Show to the satisfaction of the Administrator that the individual has the

requisite skill to determine whether the aircraft is in a condition for safe

operations; and Be a citizen of the United States or an individual citizen of a

foreign country who has lawfully been admitted for permanent residence in the

United States.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"We maintain our strength in order to deter and defend against aggression -- to

preserve freedom and peace. Since the dawn of the atomic age, we've sought to

reduce the risk of war by maintaining a strong deterrent and by seeking genuine

arms control. 'Deterrence' means simply this: making sure any adversary who

thinks about attacking the United States, or our allies, or our vital

interests, concludes that the risks to him outweigh any potential gains. Once

he understands that, he won't attack. We maintain the peace through our

strength; weakness only invites aggression."

-- Ronald Reagan

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:48 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

 	  Quote: 	
		   In the case of a Light Sport Aircraft the applicant must undergo 120 hours

of classroom training
	


for an Airplane 



Paul - it's 16 hours and passing a written test for ELSA, I don't know about

the other aircraft types but I expect they are even shorter.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

On Wed, July 15, 2009 10:29 am, Bob Brennan wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



> In the case of a Light Sport Aircraft the applicant must undergo 120 hours

 of classroom training

 for an Airplane



 Paul - it's 16 hours and passing a written test for ELSA, I don't know about

 the other aircraft types but I expect they are even shorter.


	


That article I quoted is brand new. It probably needs to be updated. Worth sending a

note to the author. How did you find out it was only 16 hours instead of what was 120

hours? As I understand from what you said, you got a Repairman's Certificate for an

Experimental you did not build by taking a class and passing an exam. That is so

significant, it should be written up and submitted to Jeremy Cox, the author of the

article. I didn't see an e-mail address but the article has a link for posting

comments.



<http://www.globalair.com/articles/cox/article.asp#replies>



You should definitely tell him that it looks like his info needs updating because you

were able to get the repairman's certificate without being the original builder and

tell me how you did it. I'm glad I posted the e-mail. Lots of people probably buying a

completed kit would gladly take 20 hours of instruction, study for a test and pass it

so they can get a repairman's certificate. I know I would. Especially if you bought

one of those modified SuperCubs that is now an Experimental and want to work on it

yourself.



I just thought of something. You said ELSA. That's Experimental Light Sport Aircraft.

Maybe the 16 hour class only applies to that and not to a regular Experimental? Maybe

you can't get the Repairman's Certificate if it isn't LSA and you didn't build it

yourself?

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



"What's called the public debt stands at $11 trillion and growing.

That pales in comparison to the federal government's unfunded

liability -- obligations that are not covered by an asset of equal

or greater value. Mike Whalen, former policy chairman of the

Dallas-based National Center for Policy Analysis, commenting on

last year's Social Security Trustees annual report on the state of

the Social Security and Medicare programs, said, 'The report on the

state of entitlement programs is rather grim -- the combined

unfunded liabilities of both programs are $101 trillion.' What that

means is that in order for government to make good on its promises,

Congress would have to put aside tens of trillions of dollars in

the bank today. Keep in mind that our GDP is only $14 trillion. In

the absence of massive tax increases or cuts in benefits, in order

to meet its promises Congress must cease spending on one in four

programs by 2020, such as education and highway construction, and

one in two by 2030, and by 2050 or so all federal revenue will be

spent supporting Social Security, Medicare and prescription drug

benefits. Such a scenario is unsustainable. There will be economic

and political chaos. Today's politicians are not likely to take

measures to avoid the coming chaos because senior citizens, the

major beneficiaries of Social Security and Medicare, vote in large

numbers and will exact a high political price. Plus, neither

today's senior citizens nor today's politicians will be alive in

2050. I'd be more optimistic if my fellow Americans were simply

suffering from congressional deception as opposed to their not

caring about the economic calamity that awaits tomorrow's

Americans."

-- George Mason University economics professor Walter E. Williams

_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:26 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Hi Paul,



Looks like you thought it through to the proper conclusion at the end of

your email!



The Repairman's Certificate course I took is for ELSA aircraft only, owned

by the applicant. It is given by SportAir Workshops supported by the EAA - a

2 1/2 day (16 hour) course in many locations around the country. Here is the

webpage: 

http://www.sportair.com/workshops/1Repairman%20(LSA)%20Inspection-Airplane.h

tml#TopOfPage0 



The aircraft MUST be owned by the applicant and MUST have an ELSA

(Experimental, Light Sport Aircraft) Airworthiness Certificate. The

Repairman's Certificate is issued to the applicant and the airplane

combined.



Any airplane that already has an Airworthiness Type Certification cannot be

converted to ELSA, *except* SLSA (Special LSA, manufactured under an SLSA

Type Certificate). A J3 Cub, even one being flown under Experimental or

Light Sport rules, cannot become ELSA because it already has a Standard Type

Certification.



A builder of a kit can elect to certificate it as ELSA as long as it meets

all LSA requirements (ie weight, 2 persons only, no in-flight adjustable

prop, etc). However if the airplane has *ever* held an EAB (Experimental -

Amateur Built) AC it can never be converted to ELSA.



I got lucky and had to jump through hoops to get my 1989 Kitfox II (flying

since 1991 in the UK) an ELSA AC. First of all I got in under the now-closed

deadline to get it Registered as Light Sport. Then I had to prove it had

never had a AC in the UK, no easy task. Once I got it certificated as ELSA I

took the course and Bob's your Repairman 



My advice to builders not yet certificated - get an ELSA Airworthiness

Certification for it. As builder it will make no difference, but when you go

to sell it the new owner will be able to get his own Repairman's Certificate

for that plane. IMHO the airplane will be worth more when up for sale as

ELSA, but that's just an opinion.



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa



--

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:43 pm Post subject: owner performed maintenance

At 05:21 AM 7/15/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Guy is correct. If you buy an experimental and you are not the 

original builder, you can do all the maintenance but have to have an 

A&P do the annual(conditional).


	


You mean I got one RIGHT!? OMIGOD I think I'm going to faint. 

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting



Do not archive

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Jim Feldmann

Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 54
Location: Burbank, CA

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: owner performed maintenance

There seems to be some confusion here between the rules covering ELSA aircraft and Experimental, Amateur-Built aircraft.  With regard to the latter; here is a quote from the EAA website:



I am going to buy a used homebuilt, what work can I perform myself?

FAR Part 43 specifically states that the rules of that part do not apply to experimental, amateur-built aircraft. Therefore, any work (not just maintenance) on an experimental aircraft can be performed virtually by anyone regardless of credentials. (This does not apply to the condition inspection). Let common sense be your guide as to what maintenance you conduct yourself.



Guy is right.  If you buy an airplane registered as an "Experimental, Amateur-Built" you can do anything except the annual Condition Inspection.

_________________
Jim Feldmann
Kitfox IV Speedster / 912 lost to prop failure
Building a Kitfox 5 Voyager

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:46 pm Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Jim,



Sorry but it is confusing to the list to say "you can do anything except the

annual Condition Inspection." There are specific things you can do which

have already been listed in this thread. Specifically anything that will

cause the Annual Condition Inspection to fail are things you should not do,

and technically can not do.



As a certified repairman and inspector for my own airplane I am aware of

what I should and should not do to it, and can and cannot do to it, for

instance rebuild the engine without further training. An A&P inspector has

the responsibility to tell kit builders what they can and cannot do, and

should and should not have done to an airplane they did not build.



Better to stick with the list of 31 things you *can* do than announce to the

list that you can do "anything", don't you think?



Bob Brennan - N717GB

ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

Wrightsville Pa 



--

Dick Maddux

Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 516
Location: Milton, Fl

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:15 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Paul,

  We are talking apples and oranges here. My Kitfox,as an example, is licensed as an amateur built experimental aircraft. As such I can do all the maintenance on the aircraft (with some exceptions). I am not hampered by a list of preventative maintenance items  IF I was the original builder I could also do the annual condition inspection. However I am not the builder so I have to have an A&P do that. As stated previously this has been this way for a long time and is one of the benefits of owning an experimental aircraft.

  Now IF my aircraft was licensed as an ELSA (or SLSA) that is a different story. I believe that is what you are referring to. This whole thing is a very confusing issue as illustrated in the many forums held at Lakeland and Sebring on that very subject.

                                                             Dick Maddux

                                                             Fox 4

                                                             Milton,Fl 

 Can love help you live longer? Find out now.

  [quote][b]

matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:50 am Post subject: owner performed maintenance

Dick,

  

 If your aircraft has an  Airworthiness Certification (not "licensed") as SLSA you have the same  restrictions as to what you can do on it as any factory built STC (Standard Type  Certificate) aircraft such as a Piper or Cessna. However an SLSA aircraft owner  has the unique ability to do a 1-time change to ELSA certification (can never  change it back to SLSA). The SLSA/now ELSA aircraft is still bound by STC  approvals and restrictions regarding parts and modifications, but the owner now  can do the work and inspections him/herself. 

  

 An ELSA aircraft has few  restrictions as to parts and modifications although it is always wise to stick  to the kit manufacturer's recommendations and airworthiness notifications, which  for any Experimental aircraft are not mandatory like they are with STC  aircraft.

  

 I think the confusion  comes in when people here offer opinion off the top of their heads. Sorry to be  such a stickler for facts but here is the link to the FAA site regarding  Airworthiness Certification and all the implications, which I hope I am  summarising in a more readable form in this thread(?)

 http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/airworthiness_certification/

  

 Bob  Brennan - N717GB

 ELSA Repairman, inspection rated

 1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger

 Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop

 Wrightsville Pa

  

  

   From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Catz631(at)aol.com

Sent: 16 July 2009 8:04 am

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: owner performed  maintenance

 

 Paul,

  We are talking apples and oranges here. My Kitfox,as an  example, is licensed as an amateur built experimental aircraft. As such I  can do all the maintenance on the aircraft (with some exceptions). I am not  hampered by a list of preventative maintenance items  IF I was the  original builder I could also do the annual condition inspection. However I am  not the builder so I have to have an A&P do that. As stated previously  this has been this way for a long time and is one of the benefits of owning an  experimental aircraft.

  Now IF my aircraft was licensed as an ELSA (or SLSA) that is a  different story. I believe that is what you are referring to. This whole thing  is a very confusing issue as illustrated in the many forums held at  Lakeland and Sebring on that very subject.

                                                              Dick Maddux

                                                              Fox 4

                                                             Milton,Fl  

 

  Can love help you live longer? Find  out now.

[quote]



href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List">http://www.matronhref="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> Kitfox-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum