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582 stuck - update

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stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

Stuck seems to be the right word  for this situation.

 I removed the head - still stuck.

 I removed the gear box - still stuck.

 I then took off the cylinders - still stuck but not as much.

 Took the engine out of the plane and took the ign and oil

 pump off.  Had a good look inside the crankcase and elsewhere.

 And..............found a layer of what looks and feels like tar.

 Everything is covered with  this and is very sticky.

 Even the rings are stuck with the stuff.

 It seems to clean up with carb cleaner.

 I think this is the "stuck" culprit.

 So, where did this stuff come from?

 I think maybe the engine was stored with some kind of preservatives

 when shipped here.  

 Then during many storage years it turned into this stuff.  

 The engine is dated Jan 1991.

 I finally hung it on the airplane in 2006 and first run-up for 

 break-in in 2008. Every thing seemed normal for the hour 

 break-in procedure.  Then during taxi test in 2009 the stuck

 problem developed.

  

 Any ideas how this stuff might have developed ?

 There is no evidence of any metal to metal dings.

 Fuel used was Conoco prem with no evidence of ethanol.

 The oil tank shows oil being consumed normally.

  

 Is there any way to clean up this stuff without splitting the case?

  

 I don't have the special tools to disassemble and assemble the engine.

 And they are pricey.

 Anyone have these tools that would be willing to rent them to me.

  

 Cecil in N. Idaho

 N161CP Kitfox IV -  582 C 1050

  

  

  

  

  [quote][b]

Lynn Matteson

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:04 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

I had a similar experience just recently with a single-cylinder  

Briggs and Stratton engine that was out of a cultivator.  The piston  

was so stuck in the bore that it needed to be pried out. I found a  

sticky substance in the pan that was grey-looking and very sticky.  

They grey color was probably from the aluminum cylinder walls, but  

the stickiness I just can't explain. I used alcohol, MEK, mineral  

spirits, water, lacquer thinner, and finally carburetor cleaner to  

try to dissolve the stuff. None of these products seemed to cut the  

stuff, but with some soaking, the carb cleaner finally got rid of  

it....not like it should have, though. Of course, the EPA has  

weakened the carb cleaner to the point that you could damn near drink  

it...it sure isn't as potent as it used to be. I hope you find the  

answer.



Lynn Matteson

Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger

Jabiru 2200, #2062, 707.7 hrs

Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop

Electroair direct-fire ignition system

Status: flying

do not archive



On Jul 19, 2009, at 12:47 AM, Cecil Stokesberry wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Stuck seems to be the right word  for this situation.

 I removed the head - still stuck.

 I removed the gear box - still stuck.

 I then took off the cylinders - still stuck but not as much.

 Took the engine out of the plane and took the ign and oil

 pump off.  Had a good look inside the crankcase and elsewhere.

 And..............found a layer of what looks and feels like tar.

 Everything is covered with  this and is very sticky.

 Even the rings are stuck with the stuff.

 It seems to clean up with carb cleaner.

 I think this is the "stuck" culprit.

 So, where did this stuff come from?

 I think maybe the engine was stored with some kind of preservatives

 when shipped here.

 Then during many storage years it turned into this stuff.

 The engine is dated Jan 1991.

 I finally hung it on the airplane in 2006 and first run-up for

 break-in in 2008. Every thing seemed normal for the hour

 break-in procedure.  Then during taxi test in 2009 the stuck

 problem developed.



 Any ideas how this stuff might have developed ?

 There is no evidence of any metal to metal dings.

 Fuel used was Conoco prem with no evidence of ethanol.

 The oil tank shows oil being consumed normally.



 Is there any way to clean up this stuff without splitting the case?



 I don't have the special tools to disassemble and assemble the engine.

 And they are pricey.

 Anyone have these tools that would be willing to rent them to me.



 Cecil in N. Idaho

 N161CP Kitfox IV -  582 C 1050





 www.matronics.com/contribution _- 

 ============================================================

_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM

Ken Potter

Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 85
Location: Lanark, Ontario

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:04 am Post subject: Re: 582 stuck - update

I would be interested in any other's experience of Cecil's problem.  My 582 was delivered to the previous owner in 1991.  In 2003, not even having run it yet he had it "updated" by a rotax dealer.  When I purchased the project from him in 2007 I remember him saying that after the update it had been "preserved" by the dealer.  Now, my experience as a mechanical engineer tells me that this is normally done just using a preservative oil which is compatible with other oils.  But as I'll be ready to start and break mine in within the next couple of months, Cecil's observations have me wondering.....

_________________
Ken Potter
Model II, No. 483
Rotax 582, C-Box,
99% Complete
C-FJKP
Lanark, Ontario

ronlee

Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 141

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: Re: 582 stuck - update

Transmission shops use carburetor cleaner to clean the burnt on varnish off parts all the time. 

They have it in five gallon containers. maybe you could find some shop with a container large enough to soak the whole crank case. I do not know what it would do to the seals though.

_________________
Ron Lee
Tucson, Arizona

shanesather(at)netkaster.
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:40 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

This seems almost like mine was when I first kit my  fox. The first few hours on the engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose  and the inside of the engine got coated with a tar like stuff and had to be  cleaned all out. We believe it came from the fuel tanks.

  

 Do not archive.

 [quote]   ---

Paul A. Franz, P.E.

Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

On Sun, July 19, 2009 9:34 am, Shane Sather wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   ...... The first few hours on the

 engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose and the inside of the engine got

 coated with a tar like stuff and had to be cleaned all out. We believe it came from

 the fuel tanks.


	


I've been following this thread and I too suspect the fouling wasn't present when the

engine was first run. Something in contact with the fuel is the cause rather than the

pickling process on the engine done for long term storage.

-- 

Paul A. Franz

Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT

Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP

Bellevue WA



CULTURE



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one of the failings of the so-called greatest generation. ... Policemen and

laws can never replace customs, traditions and moral values as a means for

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_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office

rjdaugh

Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 195

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

I would like to second Shane’s suggestion.  I had a similar problem with my 912S.  It ran great for several flights then the starter carbs (choke is a misnomer for this engine) stuck.  I took them apart, cleaned them up, and then flew a couple of flights and they gummed up again.  I got smart this time and drained all the gas from the tanks, cleaned the starter carbs again, and then with new gas, had no more problems.    

   

I hate to admit that I have further confirmation that the problem was with the gas (or more correctly, with the gas tanks!).   I took the bad gas home intending to use it to burn slash piles and lost track of it.  I put it in my lawn mower and ended up pulling the carb and cleaning it!  (*&%#$*(&  

   

This sounds different in scale, but ,,,,  

   

Randy  

   

         

  

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shane Sather

 Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:34 AM

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 582 stuck - update  

  

     

This seems almost like mine was when I first kit my fox. The first few hours on the engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose and the inside of the engine got coated with a tar like stuff and had to be cleaned all out. We believe it came from the fuel tanks.  

    

   

    

Do not archive.  

  [quote]    

---

_________________
Randy
Kitfox 5/7 912S
Black Hills, South Dakota

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:34 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

The deposits appear in different places and seem  related to fiberglass tanks. References to black deposits in engines is more  common in marine applications. Here is a link to one. 

  

 http://www.ardujenski.com/files/documents/fueltest.pdf

  

 It relates to alchohol but perhaps these deposits  show up in new tanks moreso than older ones. In any case it looks like this  material is soming into the engine from the tanks. 

  

 Maybe a good waashout or seasoning with fuel  which must then be disposed is an answer. Anybody starting up a new "fox from  early nineties? 

   [quote][b]

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

I suggest you guys start testing your fuel for ethanol concentration.  

   

Noel  

       

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Shane Sather

 Sent: 19 July 2009 14:04

 To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: 582 stuck - update  

  

  

     

This seems almost like mine was when I first kit my fox. The first few hours on the engine all was good. Then all hell poured loose and the inside of the engine got coated with a tar like stuff and had to be cleaned all out. We believe it came from the fuel tanks.  

    

   

    

Do not archive.  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: Cecil Stokesberry (stokesc(at)wildblue.net)   

    

To: Kitfox (Kitfox-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:47 PM  

    

Subject: 582 stuck - update  

    

   

    

Stuck seems to be the right word  for this situation.  

    

I removed the head - still stuck.  

    

I removed the gear box - still stuck.  

    

I then took off the cylinders - still stuck but not as much.  

    

Took the engine out of the plane and took the ign and oil  

    

pump off.  Had a good look inside the crankcase and elsewhere.  

    

And..............found a layer of what looks and feels like tar.  

    

Everything is covered with  this and is very sticky.  

    

Even the rings are stuck with the stuff.  

    

It seems to clean up with carb cleaner.  

    

I think this is the "stuck" culprit.  

    

So, where did this stuff come from?  

    

I think maybe the engine was stored with some kind of preservatives  

    

when shipped here.    

    

Then during many storage years it turned into this stuff.    

    

The engine is dated Jan 1991.  

    

I finally hung it on the airplane in 2006 and first run-up for   

    

break-in in 2008. Every thing seemed normal for the hour   

    

break-in procedure.  Then during taxi test in 2009 the stuck  

    

problem developed.  

    

   

    

Any ideas how this stuff might have developed ?  

    

There is no evidence of any metal to metal dings.  

    

Fuel used was Conoco prem with no evidence of ethanol.  

    

The oil tank shows oil being consumed normally.  

    

   

    

Is there any way to clean up this stuff without splitting the case?  

    

   

    

I don't have the special tools to disassemble and assemble the engine.  

    

And they are pricey.  

    

Anyone have these tools that would be willing to rent them to me.  

    

   

    

Cecil in N. Idaho  

    

N161CP Kitfox IV -  582 C 1050  

    

   

    

   

    

   

    

   

   	  Quote: 	
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       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:14 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

Have you tried brake cleaner.  It is usually rubber safe and will dissolve

most tars.



I'd like to see an analysis done on the gunk...  My bet is it will be epoxy

resin.  Check to see if any of this goo is in the float bowls...  I have the

funny feeling you may find your tanks dissolving too!  Goo in the base can

only get there through the carb... in the fuel.  Mineral oils are used to

mothball engines and I find it hard to see that stuff turning to goo while

the engine is operating.



Noel



--

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

stokesc(at)wildblue.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:46 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

The instructions I used for first start of engine was to 

 add some oil to the fuel just in case the oil injector

 did not work.  This I did and maybe I put too much oil

 in the fuel and the oil injector did work as it should.

 Maybe this was the start of it all.

 I will look in the flood bowl to see if there is any gunk.

 Carb clearer works very well in dissolving this black gunk.

 I will also try brake cleaner to see how it works.

 I doubt if either will harm the crank bearings, but I am

 concerned what damage the cleaner might do to the 

 oil seals or o-rings.

  

 Cecil  

 Kitfox IV 1050 582 C

  [quote][b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

At 06:28 PM 7/19/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The deposits appear in different places and seem related to fiberglass tanks. References to black deposits in engines is more common in marine applications. Here is a link to one. 	


 Here in Ramona we had the dreaded sludge in a Kitfox III with a 912. It was attributed to bad gas, and the tanks were unequivocally exonerated.



 

 Guy Buchanan

 San Diego, CA

 K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting    [quote][b]

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

Float Flyr

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:43 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

If there is anything in the float bowls then you will have to check the tanks...  be sure to use a sealed light there.  An excess of oil would cause your engine to be very smoky and could even cause the plugs to foul but black goo in the base where unburned atomized fuel lives is not normal.  The only other thing I can think of is if someone sugared your gas... even that shouldn’t show up in the base of the engine.  

   

The fact the stuff seems to be resistant to carb cleaner makes ne think what you are seeing is the resins that form your fuel tanks.  Do you drain your gascolator before every flight?  It is surprising that the goo didn’t turn up there as a yellowish slime.  

   

Noel  

     

From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cecil Stokesberry

 Sent: 20 July 2009 03:13

 To: Kitfox

 Subject: 582 stuck - update  

  

     

The instructions I used for first start of engine was to   

    

add some oil to the fuel just in case the oil injector  

    

did not work.  This I did and maybe I put too much oil  

    

in the fuel and the oil injector did work as it should.  

    

Maybe this was the start of it all.  

    

I will look in the flood bowl to see if there is any gunk.  

    

Carb clearer works very well in dissolving this black gunk.  

    

I will also try brake cleaner to see how it works.  

    

I doubt if either will harm the crank bearings, but I am  

    

concerned what damage the cleaner might do to the   

    

oil seals or o-rings.  

    

   

    

Cecil    

    

Kitfox IV 1050 582 C  

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       [quote][b]

_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats

icubob(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:14 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

not likely. i have had 2 cucle mixes sit for yrars and never seen a precipitate. i always dump oil in my injector snowmobiles and mix for the chainsaw gets so old i often dump it .

    bob noffs n. wi.

 On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 12:43 AM, Cecil Stokesberry <stokesc(at)wildblue.net (stokesc(at)wildblue.net)> wrote:

 [quote] The instructions I used for first start of engine was to 

 add some oil to the fuel just in case the oil injector

 did not work.  This I did and maybe I put too much oil

 in the fuel and the oil injector did work as it should.

 Maybe this was the start of it all.

 I will look in the flood bowl to see if there is any gunk.

 Carb clearer works very well in dissolving this black gunk.

 I will also try brake cleaner to see how it works.

 I doubt if either will harm the crank bearings, but I am

 concerned what damage the cleaner might do to the 

 oil seals or o-rings.

  

 Cecil  

 Kitfox IV 1050 582 C

 	  Quote: 	
		  



arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List

ttp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	
[b]

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:42 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

Noel, No way it sugar . That is a false old wives tail. All it does is just lay in the tank waiting to clog the filters. If it arrives in the engine, unlikely, it does not produce the black junk that we created in the chem lab.

 The fuel and or tank coating is my best guesss. The designer unleaded fuels in some markets have things a lot worse than alcohol. These various additives are aromatics to solve some perceived pollution and they are very aggressive. The 10% alky is unlikely the problem since it is so common in use with the glass tanks and common tank coatings that do not result in black junk. Another possible issue could be an off the wall tank coating that none of the other guys have used.



 Probably a chem lab analysis of the black junk is in order.

 PW

 ==========



 At 09:08 AM 7/20/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]If there is anything in the float bowls then you will have to check the tanks...  be sure to use a sealed light there.  An excess of oil would cause your engine to be very smoky and could even cause the plugs to foul but black goo in the base where unburned atomized fuel lives is not normal.  The only other thing I can think of is if someone sugared your gas... even that shouldn’t show up in the base of the engine.

  

 The fact the stuff seems to be resistant to carb cleaner makes ne think what you are seeing is the resins that form your fuel tanks.  Do you drain your gascolator before every flight?  It is surprising that the goo didn’t turn up there as a yellowish slime.

  

 Noel

  

 From: owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com [ mailto:owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-kitfox-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Cecil Stokesberry

 Sent: 20 July 2009 03:13

 To: Kitfox

 Subject: 582 stuck - update

  

 The instructions I used for first start of engine was to 

 add some oil to the fuel just in case the oil injector

 did not work.  This I did and maybe I put too much oil

 in the fuel and the oil injector did work as it should.

 Maybe this was the start of it all.

 I will look in the flood bowl to see if there is any gunk.

 Carb clearer works very well in dissolving this black gunk.

 I will also try brake cleaner to see how it works.

 I doubt if either will harm the crank bearings, but I am

 concerned what damage the cleaner might do to the 

 oil seals or o-rings.

  

 Cecil  

 Kitfox IV 1050 582 C

 [b]

Guy Buchanan

Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

At 10:43 PM 7/19/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  This I did and maybe I put too much oil

in the fuel and the oil injector did work as it should.

Maybe this was the start of it all.


	


Doubt it. Too much oil just leads to smoke and carbon build-up, not 

varnish or sludge.

Guy Buchanan

San Diego, CA

K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting

_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too.

occom

Joined: 26 Aug 2006
Posts: 404

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: 582 stuck - update

Hi Paul, if you read the report at the link of the  last post I sent, it looks like the "gunk" is composed of styrene in their  tests. 

 [quote]   ---

pwmac(at)sisna.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

I confess I have not read allt he messages. Maybe some foam was left in the tank  -dissolves with fuel. Hmmm.

 PW

 ========

 At 10:54 AM 7/20/2009, you wrote:

 [quote]Hi Paul, if you read the report at the link of the last post I sent, it looks like the "gunk" is composed of styrene in their tests. 

   ---

n81jg(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject: 582 stuck - update

Does the tar like substance desolve in water? If so did someone put sugar in your tank or fuel? Sugar forms a molasses like gum with heat.

 

 John Greaves

 Redding, CA

 

 

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