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byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

New partner, Brian Neunzig, and I are planning to hang an M14P and MT prop on our CJ come October. Since sharing that news with friends, I've been accused by some of going over to the dark side. 



M14P horror stories abound. "Burns a quart of oil or more an hour." "Gets its 360 hp by turning at 2900 rpm instead of 2350. Eats up the engine and TBOs at 500 hours." "Burns a lot more gas." "Climbs better with the MT, but no faster in cruise." "So, you want to spend $50K for marginal improvement?" "Blitz, I know you're now 70, but is something wrong with your prostate that you need a three-bladed prop to feel like a man?"

 



You get the drift. So, we'd enjoy hearing from those who have flown behind both engines. Try, try to be objective.

Many thanks, Blitz



-- 

Byron M. Fox

80 Milland Drive

 Mill Valley, CA 94941

415-307-2405

 

  [quote][b]

N13472(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:11 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

You get the drift. So, we'd enjoy hearing from those who have flown behind both engines. Try, try to be objective.

 



 Many thanks, Blitz

  

 Objective? Your asking a pilot to be objective about their favorite  mistress? Good luck on that Eh!

  

  

Tom Elliott

CJ-6A NX63727

702-595-2680  

 [quote]         From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com    [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Byron    Fox

Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:33 AM

To: Yak    LIst

Subject: Housai to M14P    Conversion

   

New partner, Brian Neunzig, and I are planning to hang an M14P and    MT prop on our CJ come October. Since sharing that news with friends, I've    been accused by some of going over to the dark side.    



   M14P horror stories abound. "Burns a quart of oil or more an hour." "Gets    its 360 hp by turning at 2900 rpm instead of 2350. Eats up the engine and TBOs    at 500 hours." "Burns a lot more gas." "Climbs better with the MT, but no    faster in cruise." "So, you want to spend $50K for marginal improvement?"    "Blitz, I know you're now 70, but    is something wrong with your prostate that you need a three-bladed prop to feel like a man?"

   



   You get the drift. So, we'd enjoy hearing from those who have flown behind both engines. Try, try to be objective.

   



   Many thanks, Blitz

   

-- 

Byron M. Fox

80 Milland Drive

Mill Valley, CA    94941

415-307-2405



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[b]

JOE HOWSE

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 140
Location: DUNCAN BC CANADA

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:20 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Blitz

  

 I ran the M14P conversion on my CJ6, has the extra  oomph if you wnt to use it, flying off our short home strip it was no problem on  hot

 days or bad wind conditions,  nice to have the  extra speed available in the right condions. much smoother with the 3 blade prop  than the 2 blade original.

  

 Joe

 [quote]   



   

 

[b]

_________________
J.C. HOWSE

dandmaz(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Hi BLitz,

  

 You are a wise man at seventy, on the dark side you  will find this; I have over one thousand hours on my CJ-6 powered by a  MP-14 on my last annual compression check 77/80 this years flight to  All Redstar KDVT to L26 leg with SIX CJ-6s (three  CJ6-A/three CJ-6P) two hour flight oil  burn 1/2 quart per hour fuel used 28.5 gals at 68%  power.  The CJ-6As turned 2100 RPM to stay up  and burned more fuel and oil.  Of course we could have increased our  power a little maybe 72/74 % and left the C6-As behind, that's what the  dark side would do, but we pulled the power way back so we all could stay  together.

  

 Don

 Stormy

 [quote]   From:    Byron Fox (byronmfox(at)gmail.com)    

   To: Yak LIst (yak-list(at)matronics.com) 

   Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 9:33 AM

   Subject: Housai to M14P    Conversion

   



New partner, Brian Neunzig, and I are planning to hang an M14P    and MT prop on our CJ come October. Since sharing that news with friends, I've    been accused by some of going over to the dark side.    



   M14P horror stories abound. "Burns a quart of oil or more an hour." "Gets    its 360 hp by turning at 2900 rpm instead of 2350. Eats up the engine and TBOs    at 500 hours." "Burns a lot more gas." "Climbs better with the MT, but no    faster in cruise." "So, you want to spend $50K for marginal improvement?"    "Blitz, I know you're now 70, but    is something wrong with your prostate that you need a three-bladed prop to feel like a man?"

   



   You get the drift. So, we'd enjoy hearing from those who have flown behind both engines. Try, try to be objective.

   



   Many thanks, Blitz

   

-- 

Byron M. Fox

80 Milland Drive

Mill Valley, CA    94941

415-307-2405



 	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

And how many horsepower does the Housai develop at 2350?   285, right?  Now divide 2350 by 2900.  What percent is that?   81%.  Now multiply that percent times 360.  What horsepower is  that?  291 horsepower to be exact.  Hummmm....aren't they amazingly  close?  Same cubic inches.  620 cu. in.  Only 1/10 point  difference in compression ratio too.  Specific fuel consumption for both  stock engines at the same power settings is going to be pretty  darn close.  It's the nature of the beast, unless of course there are  custom modifications to the engines.

  

 Propellers do make a difference.  Put a pair of  Chinese prop blades into a Russian hub, (the blades are interchangeable with the  Russian paddle prop blades).  Then go fly a specified test plan at the same  percent of power (Housai 285 and M14P powered CJ6) and document the  results.  I'm sure everyone on the list would be interested in the  results.

  

 I think some of the folks on the list thinking of making  the change will have difficulty justifying the 50K upgrade, particularly after  the results are posted.

 Dennis

   

 [quote]   ---

cd001633(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Blitz,



Does any of your nay sayer advisors own an M-14P power CJ??  



Regarding higher consumption of oil/fuel - do these wise aviators experts actually expect less fuel/oil for the additional horse power...??



The

M-14 for the CJ is like viagra - no matter how young/old we are we

always enjoy the extra oomph...  The M-14P gives it too   



Climb

performance improves dramatically and cruise improves substantially

also (nothing marginal here).  The 3 blades adds to the climb/cruise

performance as well.  I have been flying mine with a 3 bladed Whirlwind

prop - and I love it.  MT is a great choice.



To many of us, the

only substitute to power is MORE power!!!   You've got the 50 Gs - go

have fun with it, you will not regret it!!! - these are my 2 cents

opinion...



Sam Sax

Miami

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Many thanks, Sam. Well said, and no, all the detractors are Housai  

folks. ...Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 19, 2009, at 3:43 PM, Sam Sax <cd001633(at)mindspring.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Blitz,



 Does any of your nay sayer advisors own an M-14P power CJ??



 Regarding higher consumption of oil/fuel - do these wise aviators  

 experts actually expect less fuel/oil for the additional horse  

 power...??



 The

 M-14 for the CJ is like viagra - no matter how young/old we are we

 always enjoy the extra oomph...  The M-14P gives it too  



 Climb

 performance improves dramatically and cruise improves substantially

 also (nothing marginal here).  The 3 blades adds to the climb/cruise

 performance as well.  I have been flying mine with a 3 bladed  

 Whirlwind

 prop - and I love it.  MT is a great choice.



 To many of us, the

 only substitute to power is MORE power!!!   You've got the 50 Gs -  

 go

 have fun with it, you will not regret it!!! - these are my 2 cents

 opinion...



 Sam Sax

 Miami

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:12 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Blitz,

Come on over to the Dark Side. You gonna love the M-14!

Doc



--

k7wx(at)earthlink.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:13 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Byron,



Just bought a 1983 CJ-6A that came with a low time Housai-6 and prop  

only recently out of the box from China.  Before that, I had the  

pleasure of doing some initial training in one with the larger M14 and  

a two blade prop. I think that I can be objective.



My take as someone new to this airplane is that there is a significant  

difference between the two engines, especially during vertical  

maneuvers. Climb rate and speed are way better with the M14. With the  

Housai, the CJ is a docile, lovely aerobatic airplane that is a  

delight to fly, but I wish it had a better climb rate. The M14 I flew  

several weeks ago was a noticeably more powerful platform.



When I can afford it, in several years I'll probably be hanging a M14.



Warren Hill

Mesa, AZ



On Jul 19, 2009, at 9:33 AM, Byron Fox wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   New partner, Brian Neunzig, and I are planning to hang an M14P and  

 MT prop on our CJ come October. Since sharing that news with  

 friends, I've been accused by some of going over to the dark side.



 M14P horror stories abound. "Burns a quart of oil or more an hour."  

 "Gets its 360 hp by turning at 2900 rpm instead of 2350. Eats up the  

 engine and TBOs at 500 hours." "Burns a lot more gas." "Climbs  

 better with the MT, but no faster in cruise." "So, you want to spend  

 $50K for marginal improvement?" "Blitz, I know you're now 70, but is  

 something wrong with your prostate that you need a three-bladed prop  

 to feel like a man?"



 You get the drift. So, we'd enjoy hearing from those who have flown  

 behind both engines. Try, try to be objective.



 Many thanks, Blitz



 -- 

 Byron M. Fox

 80 Milland Drive

 Mill Valley, CA 94941

 415-307-2405

Dabear(at)damned.org
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Blitz or FOP (Father of Potus)

  

 I have the M14P (stock engine) and the MT  Prop.  I have 400 hours on the engine, 400 hours on the CJ with the  285.

  

 Pro's

 Increased Cruise speed - not dramatic, but  5-10kts

 Increased Climb Rate - DRAMATIC with the MT  prop

 Increased climb out of short fields

 Instant seat of the pants trust

 Flying cross country loose formation with other CJs  or Yak-52s, I have to throttle so far back I'm burning 11-11.5  Gal/hour

 With MT Prop, smoother running engine,  

  

 Con's 

 Cost of Conversion

 SLIGHT increase in fuel consumption (but then  again, I have more HP - no free lunch)

  

  

 Other Thoughts

 I burn/leak/blow out a little less than a litter an  hour of oil, but then again, my Housai lost the same or a little  more.

  

 I did the conversion when I needed to replace the  housai.  I would NEVER go back to the Housai/285hp.  If I had to  replace my CJ, it would be with another M14P powered CJ.

  

  

 The 50k you mention really isn't the cost of the upgrade.  If you  subtract what a housai engine would cost (18-20k), the cost of the upgrade is  really only 25-30k.  

  

  

 I don't think you'd be dispointed.  But give me a call if you want to  talk further.

  

 

DaBear

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Many thanks, Bear. Solid comments. ...B



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 19, 2009, at 5:14 PM, "dabear" <Dabear(at)damned.org (Dabear(at)damned.org)> wrote:



[quote]  Blitz or FOP (Father of Potus)

  

 I have the M14P (stock engine) and the MT  Prop.  I have 400 hours on the engine, 400 hours on the CJ with the  285.

  

 Pro's

 Increased Cruise speed - not dramatic, but  5-10kts

 Increased Climb Rate - DRAMATIC with the MT  prop

 Increased climb out of short fields

 Instant seat of the pants trust

 Flying cross country loose formation with other CJs  or Yak-52s, I have to throttle so far back I'm burning 11-11.5  Gal/hour

 With MT Prop, smoother running engine,  

  

 Con's 

 Cost of Conversion

 SLIGHT increase in fuel consumption (but then  again, I have more HP - no free lunch)

  

  

 Other Thoughts

 I burn/leak/blow out a little less than a litter an  hour of oil, but then again, my Housai lost the same or a little  more.

  

 I did the conversion when I needed to replace the  housai.  I would NEVER go back to the Housai/285hp.  If I had to  replace my CJ, it would be with another M14P powered CJ.

  

  

 The 50k you mention really isn't the cost of the upgrade.  If you  subtract what a housai engine would cost (18-20k), the cost of the upgrade is  really only 25-30k.  

  

  

 I don't think you'd be dispointed.  But give me a call if you want to  talk further.

  

 

DaBear

  

  

  

  

 [quote]   ---

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Many thanks, Warren. ...Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 19, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Warren Hill <k7wx(at)earthlink.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Byron,



 Just bought a 1983 CJ-6A that came with a low time Housai-6 and prop  

 only recently out of the box from China.  Before that, I had the  

 pleasure of doing some initial training in one with the larger M14  

 and a two blade prop. I think that I can be objective.



 My take as someone new to this airplane is that there is a  

 significant difference between the two engines, especially during  

 vertical maneuvers. Climb rate and speed are way better with the  

 M14. With the Housai, the CJ is a docile, lovely aerobatic airplane  

 that is a delight to fly, but I wish it had a better climb rate. The  

 M14 I flew several weeks ago was a noticeably more powerful platform.



 When I can afford it, in several years I'll probably be hanging a M14.



 Warren Hill

 Mesa, AZ



 On Jul 19, 2009, at 9:33 AM, Byron Fox wrote:



> New partner, Brian Neunzig, and I are planning to hang an M14P and  

> MT prop on our CJ come October. Since sharing that news with  

> friends, I've been accused by some of going over to the dark side.

>

> M14P horror stories abound. "Burns a quart of oil or more an hour."  

> "Gets its 360 hp by turning at 2900 rpm instead of 2350. Eats up  

> the engine and TBOs at 500 hours." "Burns a lot more gas." "Climbs  

> better with the MT, but no faster in cruise." "So, you want to  

> spend $50K for marginal improvement?" "Blitz, I know you're now 70,  

> but is something wrong with your prostate that you need a three- 

> bladed prop to feel like a man?"

>

> You get the drift. So, we'd enjoy hearing from those who have flown  

> behind both engines. Try, try to be objective.

>

> Many thanks, Blitz

>

> -- 

> Byron M. Fox

> 80 Milland Drive

> Mill Valley, CA 94941

> 415-307-2405

>

KingCJ6(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

If Blitz has 900 hours on the Housai, it still has great compression and  Doug believes it will go to 2,000 hours if well maintained, this is simply a  digressionary upgrade, not a necessary replacement.

  

 Undeniably the conversion will provide a significant increase in climb  capability, but when you operate out of Petaluma at 87" MSL, this benefit  is of marginal usefulness.

  

 From a cruse speed perspective, most note a 5-10 kt increase, maybe  more/maybe less.  Assume a 10 kt increase - that's $5,000/kt increase, and  if the new President's planned tax increase passes, you's need to earn and save  about $8,000 for each increased knot.  A good wax job and tune-up will  probably give you a knot or two for substantially less!

  

 If supplemental stimulus or TARP funds are available, why not...if  not?

  

 Dave

  

  

  In a message dated 7/19/2009 5:15:20 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  Dabear(at)damned.org writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  The 50k    you mention really isn't the cost of the upgrade.  If you subtract what a    housai engine would cost (18-20k), the cost of the upgrade is really only    25-30k.  	


 An0126575x1222585099x1201462822/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JulyExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

  [quote][b]

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Gang,



I have a bunch of time behind both engines.  Lots of good info so far,  

and the consensus seems pretty solidly in favor of the M14P - which I  

agree with.  The M14P with a 3-bladed prop (choose your flavor) is  

going to double, yes double, your initial climb rate from approx. 1200  

fpm to 2200-2500 fpm.  However, I wouldn't count on 5-10 knots extra  

in cruise based on the same fuel consumption.  Additionally, 5 knots  

over a two hour flight is good for about 4 minutes, if Uncle Math is  

correct.



That being said here are the other practical differences and  

similarities between the two engines that I would factor in to a  

decision on upgrading:



-TBO will be approximately the same.  Spend the extra money and get a  

zero time, first overhaul.  Make sure the overhaul comes from a  

reputable facility.

-Oil consumption is roughly the same. The Housai runs just fine on  

20/50 or 50W, the M14P really requires 25/60 or 60W.

-Support for the M14P is better (more sources for parts, more engines  

in operation, etc.)

-Domestic overhaul facilities are gearing up to support the M14P,  

which has yet to happen with the Housai.  No one provides complete OH  

services for the M14P yet, but there is more than one reputable shop  

moving in that direction.



Performance differences that I think are important to consider are:



-the added climb performance of the "P" gives an added safety margin

-the added drag of the 3 blade decreases your glide distance and  

engine out options (there's a price to pay for any design, right?)

-that same climb performance translates into a much more capable  

aerobatic platform.  You can do vertical maneuvers with the "P" and  

gain altitude....try that with the Housai.

-Greater position keeping ability in more aggressive formation flying  

or on the outside in larger formations.  Both the added thrust and  

extra breaking power are a nice advantage.

All of this being said, the Housai is a great engine and is adequate  

for most flying.  I, however, like the M14P for the added safety of  

the higher climb rate, better support, better acro capability, sweeter  

sound, and better looks (the latter two being subjective).



Incidentally, I've written a "CJ-6 Pilot Report" that is on our web  

site.  It needs a little refinement still, but some of you may find it  

interesting.  If you find any typos or misinformation, I'd be happy to  

hear about it off list.



http://www.worldwidewarbirds.com/pdfs/CJ6_Pilot_Report.pdf



Hope this helps!

Barry Hancock

Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.

(909) 606-4444 office

(949) 300-5510 cell

www.worldwidewarbirds.com

"Making your warbird dreams a reality!"

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

terrycalloway(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:10 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Some additional comments on Barry's response.



 	  Quote: 	
		   -Oil consumption is roughly the same. The Housai runs just fine on  

 20/50 or 50W, the M14P really requires 25/60 or 60W.


	


**** Not with total seal oil rings.  My M-14 uses around 1 quart every  

5 hours.

 	  Quote: 	
		   -Domestic overhaul facilities are gearing up to support the M14P,  

 which has yet to happen with the Housai.  No one provides complete  

 OH services for the M14P yet, but there is more than one reputable  

 shop moving in that direction.


	


**** Barrett Precision Engines in Tulsa, Oklahoma is completely  

rebuilding engines.   The only thing they have not completed is their  

Dyno.  They did my engine for exactly what they quoted me also.  I  

recommend Avcraft in Nebraska for the install.  They did my install in  

budget and ON TIME.



 	  Quote: 	
		   -Greater position keeping ability in more aggressive formation  

 flying or on the outside in larger formations.  Both the added  

 thrust and extra breaking power are a nice advantage.


	


**** This can be a disadvantage to the wingman because of the braking  

effect of the prop.  So the M-14 driver needs to be smooth.



Good luck Blitz!

Pumper

ChangDriver

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 266

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Housai to M14P Conversion

Blitz:



All good comments so far.  The one thing you need to decide is how you will fly your CJ.  If acro and vertical penetration are important, the M-14P (or PF) may be what you want.  If you are going to fly "gentleman acro" and fly to/from formation events, the Housai is going to be sufficient.  If you live at altitude, the M-14 would be the better choice for the air you fly in.



As for additional cruise, I doubt there is much.  Pappy reports about 5 knots and he has lots of M-14 CJ time.  My guess is that a good portion of that comes from the spinner on the plane too as it creates better airflow.



Look at the Pitts.  there are guys (and gals) flying them with fixed props, constant props, big engines, little engines, and tricked out engines.



I've had the opportunity to fly CAP 182s with stock motors (235 HP and two blades) and the P Ponk converted 182 (265 HP and three blade prop).  The difference is noticeable in climb and short field performance and that is about it (oh yes, CHT gets hotter faster, real fast).  It is a nice kick in the butt and I even had a tower controller ask me what kind of 182 I was flying to take-off in such a short distance and climb like the plane did.



The nice part is that everyone likes the engine choice they have made.  Both are good capable engines.



It is your $50K or so, decide how you fly and if the extra $$ is worth it.



Cheers,



Craig W

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Interesting conversation!  



Boils down to whether you want to restore your 1968 Camaro with the

original straight six, which is plenty good enough to get you to and

from the grocery store, or squeeze in a 502 cu in. fire breathing, tire

screeching, big block developing over 650 horsepower!



In the car world we have a saying:  "Speed costs money.  How fast do you

want to go?"  



I think there might be a cross-over to airplanes!   



Blitz, stop looking at your wallet and start looking in the mirror.  Who

you are and what you want out of life is, in the end, the most important

factor in this decision.  All the rest is just "logical justification"

for a decision which I suspect you already have made, or darn well WANT

to make!  



Good luck, 



Mark Bitterlich

   



 

 



--

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Mark, truer words were never spoken. You can be my therapist  

anytime.  ...Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Jul 21, 2009, at 8:13 AM, "Bitterlich, Mark G CIV Det Cherry Point,  

MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil> wrote:



[quote] 

 Point, MALS-14 64E" <mark.bitterlich(at)navy.mil>



 Interesting conversation!



 Boils down to whether you want to restore your 1968 Camaro with the

 original straight six, which is plenty good enough to get you to and

 from the grocery store, or squeeze in a 502 cu in. fire breathing,  

 tire

 screeching, big block developing over 650 horsepower!



 In the car world we have a saying:  "Speed costs money.  How fast do  

 you

 want to go?"



 I think there might be a cross-over to airplanes!



 Blitz, stop looking at your wallet and start looking in the mirror.   

 Who

 you are and what you want out of life is, in the end, the most  

 important

 factor in this decision.  All the rest is just "logical justification"

 for a decision which I suspect you already have made, or darn well  

 WANT

 to make!



 Good luck,



 Mark Bitterlich



 --

dsavarese0812(at)bellsout
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Just tell your wife it is a "safety issue".  That's why  you have to spend the money.  )

 Dennis

  

 [quote]   ---

terrycalloway(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: Housai to M14P Conversion

Wait! Wait!  Don't think of using that excuse.



That does not work.  Too much damage to repair after her next reply which will be something like this...

"Well then maybe you should sell it."

Pumper



On Jul 21, 2009, at 2:08 PM, A. Dennis Savarese wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Just tell your wife it is a "safety issue".  That's why you have to spend the money.  )

Dennis

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