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The weak link

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:44 am Post subject: The weak link

Bob Nuckolls said, "Perhaps dual wing levelers are in order?  I'd  bet that a BIG

   chunk of the accidents due to poor pilot  visibility and/or

   workload distractions for single-pilot IFR  would have been

   averted (if) electrons had the stick.  I'll  suggest that most

   IFR capable airframes would be better  outfitted for ventures

   into poor visibility if there were NO  displays on the panel

   and dual, heading-slaved wing levelers  installed. The wing

   levelers are probably lighter and more  reliable than a suite

   of panel mounted gyros and more capable  than pilot's trying

   to manage an airplane . . . ."

  

 I agree wholeheartedly.  Flying IFR, if we can trust our lives to  electronics to take information from sensors and display that information, then  why can't we trust electronics to actually operate the controls?  The human  being is the weak link in the system.  Have you ever noticed the control  movements when the autopilot is on, compared to when a human is in  control?  Some planes have dual EFISs.  I suggest that it would be  better to have dual autopilots with dual servos.  The recreational IFR  pilot is better off monitoring the system as a whole, watching for component  failure, making sure that the altitude and heading are correct, handling radio  communications, looking for traffic, and etc.

 Joe Gores

   [quote][b]

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_________________
Joe Gores

mjpereira68(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:20 pm Post subject: The weak link

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Joe<fran5sew(at)banyanol.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Bob Nuckolls said, "Perhaps dual wing levelers are in order?  I'd bet that a

 BIG

    chunk of the accidents due to poor pilot visibility and/or

    workload distractions for single-pilot IFR would have been

    averted (if) electrons had the stick.  I'll suggest that most

    IFR capable airframes would be better outfitted for ventures

    into poor visibility if there were NO displays on the panel

    and dual, heading-slaved wing levelers installed. The wing

    levelers are probably lighter and more reliable than a suite

    of panel mounted gyros and more capable than pilot's trying

    to manage an airplane . . . .."



 I agree wholeheartedly.  Flying IFR, if we can trust our lives to

 electronics to take information from sensors and display that information,

 then why can't we trust electronics to actually operate the controls?  The

 human being is the weak link in the system.  Have you ever noticed the

 control movements when the autopilot is on, compared to when a human is in

 control?  Some planes have dual EFISs.  I suggest that it would be better to

 have dual autopilots with dual servos.  The recreational IFR pilot is better

 off monitoring the system as a whole, watching for component failure, making

 sure that the altitude and heading are correct, handling radio

 communications, looking for traffic, and etc.

 Joe Gores


	


Joe,



Having software manage your flight controls doesn't eliminate the

human "weak link" it just moves it from the pilot (who's own butt is

on the line) and transfers it to computer programmers, the vast

majority of which only understand a small part of the total program on

large projects (which is unavoidable). They have the privilege of  not

being in the aircraft  when their products fail (unless they're

working for a major aircraft manufacturer and suffer an incredible

case being in the wrong place at the wrong time).



Don't cast me as a luddite, I have a ton of IT experience.  And

honestly all that experience makes me appreciate the concept of having

a hunk of spinning iron as a backup. In fact, since efis is dependant

on electricity, It'd be nice if that spinning gyro was based on vacuum

(or an electrically driven one with it's own internal battery that

*only* drives the motor).



c'ya,

Michael



 	  Quote:

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mprather(at)spro.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: The weak link

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <mjpereira68(at)gmail.com>




	


snip



 	  Quote: 	
		  > communications, looking for traffic, and etc.

> Joe Gores



 Joe,



 Having software manage your flight controls doesn't eliminate the

 human "weak link" it just moves it from the pilot (who's own butt is

 on the line) and transfers it to computer programmers, the vast

 majority of which only understand a small part of the total program on

 large projects (which is unavoidable). They have the privilege of  not

 being in the aircraft  when their products fail (unless they're

 working for a major aircraft manufacturer and suffer an incredible

 case being in the wrong place at the wrong time).



 Don't cast me as a luddite, I have a ton of IT experience.  And

 honestly all that experience makes me appreciate the concept of having

 a hunk of spinning iron as a backup. In fact, since efis is dependant

 on electricity, It'd be nice if that spinning gyro was based on vacuum

 (or an electrically driven one with it's own internal battery that

 *only* drives the motor).



 c'ya,

 Michael




	


One benefit the computer programmer has is the opportunity to ponder bad

things happening while sitting at a desk (on the ground), drinking a

favored beverage.  On the other hand, the pilot gets to ponder these bad

things while riding through said bad things (which are often quite

distracting).  Sometimes the pilot doesn't make the right decision and

doesn't get to take another shot at it.  The computer programmer can (with

the help of peers) consider all sorts of malfunctions.



One other thought..  The act of using GPS data to correct for roll/yaw

gyro drift is a far cry (much simpler task) from the tasks currently being

accomplished by the current crop of EFISs.  Simpler tasks mean simpler

code, and a much easier device to debug.  What amounts to be a single axis

autopilot could be done in very few lines of code.

Matt-

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:02 am Post subject: The weak link

At 07:10 PM 7/21/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   >



One benefit the computer programmer has is the opportunity to ponder bad

things happening while sitting at a desk (on the ground), drinking a

favored beverage.  On the other hand, the pilot gets to ponder these bad

things while riding through said bad things (which are often quite

distracting).  Sometimes the pilot doesn't make the right decision and

doesn't get to take another shot at it.  The computer programmer can (with

the help of peers) consider all sorts of malfunctions.



One other thought..  The act of using GPS data to correct for roll/yaw

gyro drift is a far cry (much simpler task) from the tasks currently being

accomplished by the current crop of EFISs.  Simpler tasks mean simpler

code, and a much easier device to debug.  What amounts to be a single axis

autopilot could be done in very few lines of code.


	


    Absolutely! This is why the design goals I suggested

    for the GPS aided wing leveler has the gps receiver

    built in along with the rate sensors. No wiring other

    than to power it up, hook up an antenna and pushbuttons.

    If a valid gps signal isn't present, the system won't

    drive. If 14v isn't present, it won't drive. Software has but

    one task only . . . hold gps course of the moment

    which is modified by simple push-button commands -or-

    offered by external flight planning accessory over the

    serial bus. VERY simple code in a one-chip microprocessor.

    total parts count is very low . . . i.e. failure rates

    driven by complexity go way down.



    If you push all the fancy maneuvering software and

    hardware out to a plug-n-play device like a palm-

    computer, then the guy who keeps the airplane right

    side up and pointed the right direction is not distracted

    nor are his design goals plagued with CPU "business".

    Let somebody else with equally constrained design goals

    write the software that does the fancy steering . . .

    but in a device that can be unplugged or turned off

    without influencing the performance of the wing-leveler.



    This distributed processing, minimalist hardware approach

    offers an opportunity for a small, light, low cost

    end product, and reduces probability of high-risk software.

    A dual wing-leveler package has two control gps receivers

    cross-checked with data from a third panel mounted receiver.



    Probability for an system failure to endure unattended

    by the pilot is low and plan-a/plan-b tolerance to failure

    is high.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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