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AEC9011

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messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: AEC9011

Thanks, Bob, for answering my questions on the other thread  



Sifting through the forum archives, I see you have mentioned a replacement for the AEC9005-101 LV monitor module, http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf  ,which shows the new product. When will the 9011 become available? 



Looks like it would replace the S704-1 alternator disconnect and AEC9005-101 LV monitor module. The alternator disconnect portion of the drawing shows a slightly different alternator disconnect, the AEC9011-110-1. It says 'arc suppression' and has a resistor and capacitor added. What are the pros and cons of these pieces? If I then wanted to leave of the resistor and capacitor, could I simply modify the 9011?



Thanks,

Dan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: AEC9011

At 02:00 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Thanks, Bob, for answering my questions on the other thread 



Sifting through the forum archives, I see you have mentioned a 

replacement for the AEC9005-101 LV monitor module, 

http://aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf ,which 

shows the new product. When will the 9011 become available?


	


   As soon as I get my kids schooled in the

   art of soldering specs of fly-#$(at)(at) onto

   ECB's.  The design is done and I've had

   a couple of prototypes flying for the past

   6 months or so. When do you absolutely need

   it?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Looks like it would replace the S704-1 alternator disconnect and 

AEC9005-101 LV monitor module. The alternator disconnect portion of 

the drawing shows a slightly different alternator disconnect, the 

AEC9011-110-1.


	


   No, only the AEC9005 LV warning. It COULD be used for

   OV management of either generators -OR- alternators

   with external regulators. The present modus operandi

   for the 9011 calls for ENERGIZING the relay to shut

   the alternator/generator down. For your application,

   we need to ENERGIZE the relay to bring the alternator

   ON and de-energize it to kill the alternator. I guess

   I could do a patch to the software to make it do that.

   That would allow the single device to do both OV and

   LV monitoring/control on your small PM alternator.



 	  Quote: 	
		    It says 'arc suppression' and has a resistor and capacitor added. 

 What are the pros and cons of these pieces? If I then wanted to 

 leave of the resistor and capacitor, could I simply modify the 9011?


	


   Those are components added to the generator field

   disconnect relay when and if the OV management relay

   connects to a very inductive load (alternator or generator

   field). For the application we're talking about, you

   wouldn't need the arc suppression.



   Let me think about this a bit and see what it would

   take to offer a different dash number for the 9011.

   Alternatively, I could make the existing version

   energize the relay for generator turn-on . . . that

   would let me offer one product into yet another application.

   That's and attractive. I'll think about it.





        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: AEC9011

 	  Quote: 	
		  When do you absolutely need it? 	




Absolutely...hmm...lemme say possibly as early as 2 months, probably between 3 and 4 months, maybe as long as 6-8 months. If I knew the dimensions, connections, etc. I could prolly leave space for it and do a little retro fitting, if my project stepped into the fast lane.



 	  Quote: 	
		  No, only the AEC9005 LV warning. It COULD be used for

OV management of either generators -OR- alternators 

with external regulators. 	




I won't have any aux battery, so if I outfitted it today I would need only an LV warning light and not the rest of the options currently available. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  For your application, 

we need to ENERGIZE the relay to bring the alternator 

ON and de-energize it to kill the alternator. I guess 

I could do a patch to the software to make it do that. 

That would allow the single device to do both OV and 

LV monitoring/control on your small PM alternator. 	




And this device wouldn't need the arc suppression devices for my use, just like you'd said before, right? That would be nice. Then it would replace the PM alternator disconnect. It could use the panel display from the 9011 prototype, showing something like lights for OV, LV, aux bat LV (wouldn't be wired  in my case), and OV test?

_________________
Dan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: AEC9011

At 07:40 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 > When do you absolutely need it?

Absolutely...hmm...lemme say possibly as early as 2 months, probably 

between 3 and 4 months, maybe as long as 6-8 months. If I knew the 

dimensions, connections, etc. I could prolly leave space for it and 

do a little retro fitting, if my project stepped into the fast lane.

   the dimensions are given in

http://www.aeroelectric.com/Catalog/AEC/9011/9011-700-1C.pdf

   and the mating connector is a 9 pin, female d-sub.

   The only thing that MIGHT change is wiring to the

   relay such that the relay's N.O. contacts are used

   to control the alternator as opposed to the N.C.

   contacts as shown now.

   I've decided to leave the alternator/generator version

   as shown . . . for several reasons. There will be a PM

   alternator version -10/14V AND -11/28v that drops out

   the relay for alternator OV condition. This will merge

   nicely with all the existing PM alternator Z-figures.

   Your installation would not have the OV warn light and

   optionally, you can leave off the aux battery warn light

   too.

   So all you'll have is the OV test/reset switch and the

   LV warning light.

 	  Quote: 	
		   > No, only the AEC9005 LV warning. It COULD be used for

 > OV management of either generators -OR- alternators

 > with external regulators.

I won't have any aux battery, so if I outfitted it today I would 

need only an LV warning light and not the rest of the options 

currently available.

   The 'extras' come standard and are used or not used

   as your particular design goals dictate. Once the

   basic circuitry and packaging is taken care of, adding

   the extra features is about 5% of the total cost of

   the product.

 	  Quote: 	
		  And this device wouldn't need the arc suppression devices for my 

use, just like you'd said before, right? That would be nice. Then it 

would replace the PM alternator disconnect. It could use the panel 

display from the 9011 prototype, showing something like lights for 

OV, LV, aux bat LV (wouldn't be wired  in my case), and OV test?

   I haven't decided whether or not to offer a placard.

   Like you've already noted, the needs of each builder

   can generate a lot of different placard combinations.

   I think we'll offer LED indicators, miniature switches,

   control module and the 704-1 style relay.

        Bob . . .

         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: AEC9011

 	  Quote: 	
		  I've decided to leave the alternator/generator version 

as shown . . . for several reasons. There will be a PM 

alternator version -10/14V AND -11/28v that drops out 

the relay for alternator OV condition. 	




So I would get something separately, like the current one offered, S704-1?



 	  Quote: 	
		  This will merge nicely with all the existing PM alternator Z-figures. 	
 



How so?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Your installation would not have the OV warn light and 

optionally, you can leave off the aux battery warn light 

too. So all you'll have is the OV test/reset switch and the 

LV warning light. 	




And from the Jabiru installation manual, http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf it says on page 16 a low voltage warning light can be connected to the green wire of the voltage regulator. So I would be left with an test/reset switch. 



This makes me ask, is a test/reset switch of great value for the OV disconnect system? If it is, it seems it would  be better to get it separately, instead of in a package where most or all of the other components are of no use.



 	  Quote: 	
		  Once the 

basic circuitry and packaging is taken care of, adding 

the extra features is about 5% of the total cost of 

the product. 	




I just now saw a pic of the arc suppression relay: http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Relay_with_Arc_Suppression_s.jpg  I had thought the capacitor was 10 or 20 times bigger! 



 	  Quote: 	
		  I think we'll offer LED indicators, miniature switches, 

control module and the 704-1 style relay. 	




Sounds good. I'll wait for the announcements, or contact you if I haven't heard anything when I'm ready to install.



Thanks again,

Dan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: AEC9011

At 11:41 PM 7/31/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 > I've decided to leave the alternator/generator version

 > as shown . . . for several reasons. There will be a PM

 > alternator version -10/14V AND -11/28v that drops out

 > the relay for alternator OV condition.



So I would get something separately, like the current one offered, S704-1?


	


    Yes



 	  Quote: 	
		   > This will merge nicely with all the existing PM alternator Z-figures.

How so?


	


    Because the present design philosophy for controlling

    the PM alternator is to ENERGIZE the alternator disconnect

    relay to bring the alternator on line. This would remain

    the same. The ground side of the alternator disconnect

    relay would be controlled by the OV/LV module.



 	  Quote: 	
		  And from the Jabiru installation manual, 

http://www.usjabiru.com/images/pdf/manuals/new%20stuff/3300%20Install.pdf 

it says on page 16 a low voltage warning light can be connected to 

the green wire of the voltage regulator. So I would be left with an 

test/reset switch.


	


    As a general rule, the alternator failure warnings

    integral to voltage regulators are indicative of

    gross alternator failure and may not be sensitive

    to simple reductions in voltage due to regulator

    control failure and/or alternator over-loading.



    Legacy design goals for TC aircraft call for LV/OV

    monitoring and control to be independent systems

    not electrically connected with the regulator.



    It is my recommendation that the "LV warning"

    built into the regulator be ignored and that

    all LV/OV related functions be handled by the

    AEC9011-10

 	  Quote: 	
		  This makes me ask, is a test/reset switch of great value for the OV 

disconnect system? If it is, it seems it would  be better to get it 

separately, instead of in a package where most or all of the other 

components are of no use.


	


    Connected to the answer above. First, you'd like to

    be able to pre-flight the LV/OV monitoring and

    control system. The LV light begins to flash as

    soon as you turn the master switch ON. After

    engine start, RPMs high enough to bring the

    alternator to life should turn the LV warning light

    out. After that, a manual TEST trip of the OV system

    should bring the LV warning back on. A RESET

    should clear the LV condition. It's all a package

    designed to address design goals driven by

    the legacy failure modes effects analysis

    process that has served us well in the TC

    aircraft world for decades.



    For your application, the only thing you'll leave

    off is the second LV warning light.



 	  Quote: 	
		  I just now saw a pic of the arc suppression relay: 

http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Relays/Relay_with_Arc_Suppression_s.jpg 

I had thought the capacitor was 10 or 20 times bigger!


	


    It doesn't take much. And except for the fact

    that we'd like to trip the OV system once per

    flight cycle in preflight, the arc suppression

    system would probably not add much value. But

    when you test a generator or alternator at low

    rpm, field currents tend to be high and stored

    energy greater than for the average OV trip

    condition at cruise. So it's a good thing to

    have. But control of the PM alternator doesn't

    present these kinds of stresses so the arc

    suppression is left off.



    Bob . . .

messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: Re: AEC9011

Hey, Bob 



  	  Quote: 	
		  For your application, the only thing you'll leave 

off is the second LV warning light.  	




So I would still get the S704-1 separately and the only moving parts in the 9011 would be the OV test/reset switch?



It would look similar to the drawing on page 4 of 9011-700-1C, except everything inside the dotted lines would be replaced by my PM alternator and my S704-1. The inductor for my S704-1 would be wired into the OV WARN light somehow. 



 	  Quote: 	
		  The ground side of the alternator disconnect 

relay... 	




You mean the wire from the ground side of the inductor S704-1 that is grounded to the firewall? 



 	  Quote: 	
		  ...would be controlled by the OV/LV module. 	




The OV/LV module is the 9011, 9011-10 in my case. From Z-20, I thought the 'ground side of the alternator disconnect relay' was normally controlled by the crowbar OVM via tripping the ALT 5A circuit breaker. You're not saying the crowbar OVM and ALT circuit breaker would be changed, are you?



Finally, From your 2nd reply in this thread:

 	  Quote: 	
		  So all you'll have is the OV test/reset switch and the 

LV warning light. 	




Which seems different than what you have said now:  	  Quote: 	
		  ...the only thing you'll leave 

off is the second LV warning light.  	




I feel like I have a progressive transfer switch in my brain. It still isn't in the 'on-on' position for this topic, but you'll help me get it there soon!



Thanks,

Dan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: AEC9011

 	  Quote: 	
		  

So I would still get the S704-1 separately and the only moving parts 

in the 9011 would be the OV test/reset switch?

   Yes . . .
	


   <snip>

 	  Quote: 	
		  I feel like I have a progressive transfer switch in my brain. It 

still isn't in the 'on-on' position for this topic, but you'll help 

me get it there soon!


	


   See wiring diagram posted at:



http://www.aeroelectric.com/temp/9011_PM_OV-LV.pdf



        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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messydeer

Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Bellingham, WA

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: AEC9011

Great 



The new diagram shows no crowbar OVM, nor circuit breaker between terminals 2 and 5 in the master switch, so does this mean the 9011 will indeed replace these, taking the overvoltage PM alternator offline?

_________________
Dan

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:02 pm Post subject: AEC9011

At 04:40 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Great 



The new diagram shows no crowbar OVM, nor circuit breaker between 

terminals 2 and 5 in the master switch, so does this mean the 9011 

will indeed replace these, taking the overvoltage PM alternator offline?


	


   that's what it does . . .

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

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