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Forward Slips

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jkreidler

Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 151
Location: Sheboygan Falls WI

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Forward Slips

I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. 

 

I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). 

 

After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps. 

 

I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. 

 

Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.  At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy. 

 

After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1) Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced before.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure to come. 

 

I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform. 



 Thanks, Jason Kreidler 

 

N44YH - Flying 

4 Partner Build #40617 

Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler [quote][b]

_________________
Jason Kreidler
4 Partner Build - Sheboygan Falls, WI
Tony Kolar, Kyle Hokel, Wayne Elser, Jason Kreidler
N44YH - Flying - #40617

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:53 am Post subject: Forward Slips

Hmm, very interesting.  Back when I used to fly skydivers the forward slip was a SOP for getting down from altitude without shock cooling the engine and the slips were sometimes so aggressive that it wasn’t uncommon to unport the fuel tank with the reduced fuel that jump ships carry.  It’s something I do sometimes without even thinking about it and that would have been quite the surprise.  Thanks for sharing with us.  

   

Michael  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com

 Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:10 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Forward Slips  

  

   



 I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. 

 

 I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). 

 

 After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps. 

 

 I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. 

 

 Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.  At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy. 

 

 After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1) Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced before.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure to come. 

 

 I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform. 

 

 Thanks, Jason Kreidler 

 

 N44YH - Flying 

 4 Partner Build #40617 

 Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
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gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Forward Slips

I have not experienced this, but will look at it next flight to see.  Think most of my slips to date have been with flaps.



grumpy

N184JM

do not archive



On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. 

 

I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). 

 

After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps. 

 

I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. 

 

Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.  At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy. 

 

After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1) Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced before.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure to come. 

 

I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform. 



 Thanks, Jason Kreidler 

 

N44YH - Flying 

4 Partner Build #40617 

Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler  	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

====================================

nics.com

====================================

w.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
	


=  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:08 am Post subject: Forward Slips

I do slips all the time in the 10 but it's always with flaps, so the difference here is the lack of flaps.  I will have to try it without just to see the effect.  For standard ops though you would have flaps if you're doing a slip....so it's emergency ops that make this something to explore

Tim





On Aug 3, 2009, at 9:55 AM, "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" <rvbuilder(at)sausen.net (rvbuilder(at)sausen.net)> wrote:



[quote]    

 Hmm, very interesting.  Back when I used to fly skydivers the forward slip was a SOP for getting down from altitude without shock cooling the engine and the slips were sometimes so aggressive that it wasnâ€™t uncommon to unport the fuel tank with the reduced fuel that jump ships carry.  Itâ€™s something I do sometimes without even thinking about it and that would have been quite the surprise.  Thanks for sharing with us.  

   

Michael  

     

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)

 Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 8:10 AM

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Forward Slips  

  

   



 I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. 

 

 I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). 

 

 After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps. 

 

 I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. 

 

 Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.  At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy. 

 

 After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1) Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced before.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure to come. 

 

 I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform. 

 

 Thanks, Jason Kreidler 

 

 N44YH - Flying 

 4 Partner Build #40617 

 Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler    	  Quote: 	
		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
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[b]

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:40 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).



What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.  Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart underneath....not good).

At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF).  You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).

The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder.

Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness.  This is especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10.  Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.

I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do inadvertently depart the bird).  You need to feel for yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.  

Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude.  Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position.

Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.

Hope this helps out

grumpy

N184JM



On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. 

 

I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). 

 

After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land without flaps. 

 

I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. 

 

Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.  At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is limited to our copy. 

 

After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1) Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced before.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at the risk of what replies are sure to come. 

 

I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform. 



 Thanks, Jason Kreidler 

 

N44YH - Flying 

4 Partner Build #40617 

Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler  	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

====================================

nics.com

====================================

w.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
	


=  [quote][b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin???  What is 

the elevator position in all this???  Nose high (aft stick) and 

cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin.  And 

guaranteed to get you one.  Which begs the question .... anyone have 

experience with spins in the -10??  Reply off-list if you're sensitive 

to flaming!

Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your clothes 

on!!!



Miller John wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps down).

 

 What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled 

 flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.  Much worse 

 slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to 

 try to depart underneath.....not good).

 

 At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder 

 and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it 

 to depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you 

 (I did literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight 

 maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF).  You can quickly break the 

 departure by simply unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we 

 released the stick altogether until the airplane recovered itself 

 (usually very nose low).

 

 The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded by 

 the wing low and opposite rudder.

 

 Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the 

 an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to 

 ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness.  This is especially 

 true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than 

 the -10.  Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.

 

 I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip 

 (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you 

 do inadvertently depart the bird).  You need to feel for yourselves the 

 approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.  

 

 Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting 

 idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude.  Once 

 you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the 

 rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral 

 position.

 

 Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use 

 about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.

 

 Hope this helps out

 grumpy

 N184JM

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:03 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

I did not let it depart.



It would probably develop into a spin after the departure if the  

controls were held (aft stick, left or right aileron with opposite  

rudder).



The elevator was holding back pressure to keep the at entry condition  

relative to the horizon.



grumpy

N184JM



On Aug 4, 2009, at 8:55 PM, Linn Walters wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >

 When you say departure ..... does it want to enter a spin???  What  

 is the elevator position in all this???  Nose high (aft stick) and  

 cross-controlled rudder/aileron is pretty much asking for a spin.   

 And guaranteed to get you one.  Which begs the question .... anyone  

 have experience with spins in the -10??  Reply off-list if you're  

 sensitive to flaming!

 Linn ..... aerobatics is the most fun thing you can do with your  

 clothes on!!!



 Miller John wrote:

> I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps  

> down).

> What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from  

> controlled flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.   

> Much worse slipping to the left than to the right due to engine  

> torque (tends to try to depart underneath.....not good).

> At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full  

> rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can  

> definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your  

> pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional  

> departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the  

> AF).  You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back  

> pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether  

> until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).

> The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness,  

> compounded by the wing low and opposite rudder.

> Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip  

> the an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon  

> to ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness.  This is  

> especially true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter  

> height rudder than the -10.  Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.

> I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap  

> slip (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in  

> case you do inadvertently depart the bird).  You need to feel for  

> yourselves the approach to departure feel that you get through the  

> seat of your pants.  Trim your airplane up for hands off at about  

> 100 kts, power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near  

> level flight attitude.  Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your  

> pants, simply release release the rudder while simultaneously  

> releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position.

> Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low  

> and use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.

> Hope this helps out

> grumpy

> N184JM

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90 degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here remember that or we will talk!!!  He said with a big smile!!!! 

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

jim(at)CombsFive.Com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:20 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

Sir Grumpy,What exactly do you mean by "Depart"?  Is it an uncommanded YAW or ????I don't understand that term.Jim Combs (N312F)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flapsdown).What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlledflight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.  Much worseslipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends totry to depart underneath.....not good).At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with fullrudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you candefinitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of yourpants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departurefrom controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF).  You canquickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on thestick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplanerecovered itself (usually very nose low).The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compoundedby the wing low and opposite rudder.Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip thean RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon toensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness.  This is especiallytrue of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudderthan the -10.  Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip(above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case youdo inadvertently depart the bird).  You need to feel for yourselvesthe approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of yourpants.Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power settingidle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude.  Onceyou feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release releasethe rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to theneutral position.Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low anduse about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.Hope this helps outgrumpyN184JMOn Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:>> I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.>> I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree> flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as> it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its> travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became> much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,> and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll much,> just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return> back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder> almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during> this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain> airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).>> After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one> had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke with Ken K. about this> while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the same thing,> although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the> floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,> he thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the I suppose> the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that> maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were> forced to slow down and land without flaps.>> I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the> same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and> still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two notches> of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.>> Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the> rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.> At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is> limited to our copy.>> After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1) Expect the> unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing> a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced> before.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at the> risk of what replies are sure to come.>> I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very> least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if> the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to> perform.>> Thanks, Jason Kreidler>> N44YH - Flying> 4 Partner Build #40617> Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler>>>   [quote][b]

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

Great info....always stood behind the stabilized approach method and the slip is always in the back of my mind...my -10 will drop a wing in a deep stall if you don't dance on the rudder...as will most airplanes....played hard coming back from OSH with the rudder coupled with the ailerons  trying to hold track in 40 kt cross winds...aircraft tracked very well but never fully hands off..

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From:  Miller John 

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2009 20:38:49 -0500

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: RV10-List: Forward Slips

I had the chance to try this today (I=  normally only slip with flaps down).

What Jason descri= bes is the early onset to a departure from controlled flight (depart) due=  to loss of directional stability.  Much worse slipping to the left=  than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart underneath= .....not good).

At 90 kts I could not get it to=  come close to departing with full rudder and opposite aileron, but as I=  slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to depart if you don't know what=  the seat of your pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentio= nal departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF).=   You can quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressu= re on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the ai= rplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).

= The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded=  by the wing low and opposite rudder.

Somewhere=  in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an RV, you=  need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that you=  do not lose rudder effectiveness.  This is especially true of the ea= rlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10.  A= void level attitude or nose up slips.

I would enc= ourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip (above 5,000'=  AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do inadvertently=  depart the bird).  You need to feel for yourselves the approach to=  departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.  

<= div>

Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts,=  power setting idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attit= ude.  Once you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply releas= e release the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to=  the neutral position.

Then remember the secret=  to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use about 90 kts no flap and=  80 kts with flaps.

Hope this helps out

grumpy

N184JM

On Aug 3,=  2009, at 8:10 AM, jason= .kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com) wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had. 

 I initiated a slip at 85 knots (not= e well below Va) (zero degree flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly=  hard to push, however as it approached what I would guess to be just beyo= nd the middle of its travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the ru= dder became much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the=  slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll muc= h, just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return=  back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder=  almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance durin= g this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain ai= rspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track). 

After this happened I spoke with a few oth= ers who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke=  with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced=  the same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder ped= al to the floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the=  problem, he thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the=  I suppose the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that ma= neuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to=  slow down and land without flaps. 

I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experien= ced the same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex,=  and still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two not= ches of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips. 

Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had en= ough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it=  went, I didn't.  At least not before understanding what is going on,=  and if this is limited to our copy. 

After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1)=  Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while perfo= rming a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced be= fore.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at th= e risk of what replies are sure to come. 

I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid arg= ument, at very least we should all understand what our aircraft behave lik= e even if the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect=  to perform. 

 Thanks,=  Jason Kreidler 

N44YH=  - Flying 

4 Partner Build=  #40617 

Tony Kolar - Kyle=  Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler  	  Quote: 	
		    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D nics.com =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D w.matronics.com/contribution =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D 	

=3D  	  Quote: 	
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pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90

 degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here

 remember that or we will talk!!!  He said with a big smile!!!! Sent

 via BlackBerry by AT&T

 

Hi Rick!  I have my Pitts to give me my aerobatic fix.  Does your 
	


insurance really have the 90 degree prohibition??  I have no clue what 

my insurance says .... underwritten by Mexican company!  I have no wish 

to get wild in the -10.  I've seen enough examples of what happens when 

you fly out of the category!!!

Linn



Still thinking of renting the car.

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight - usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not always) induced by cross controls to start with. 



Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft).  Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble.  Which way it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque effects of the engine.  

Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in today, it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching moment to boot.  Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern.



The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver).  the Yaw is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going sideways in the seat.

Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize ailerons and rudder.  That will keep the departure from happening.

Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this.....

grumpy

N184JM



On Aug 4, 2009, at 9:16 PM, Jim wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Sir Grumpy,



What exactly do you mean by "Depart"?  Is it an uncommanded YAW or ????



I don't understand that term.



Jim Combs (N312F)



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps

down).



What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled

flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.  Much worse

slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to

try to depart underneath.....not good).



At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full

rudder and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can

definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the seat of your

pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional departure

from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF).  You can

quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on the

stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the airplane

recovered itself (usually very nose low).



The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded

by the wing low and opposite rudder.



Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the

an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to

ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness.  This is especially

true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height rudder

than the -10.  Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.



I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip

(above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you

do inadvertently depart the bird).  You need to feel for yourselves

the approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your

pants.



Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting

idle, then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude.  Once

you feel that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release

the rudder while simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the

neutral position.



Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and

use about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.



Hope this helps out

grumpy

N184JM

On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com) wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		  

 I would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.



 I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree

 flap setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as

 it approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its

 travel the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became

 much easier to apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,

 and felt as if it was going to swap ends.  It did not roll much,

 just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply opposite rudder to return

 back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder stop.  The rudder

 almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during

 this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch to maintain

 airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).



 After this happened I spoke with a few others who are flying, no one

 had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke with Ken K. about this

 while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the same thing,

 although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the

 floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem,

 he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I suppose

 the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that

 maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you were

 forced to slow down and land without flaps.



 I also spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the

 same thing, he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and

 still there at 0 degrees.  I have done this with one and two notches

 of 'real' flaps and was able to do full slips.



 Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the

 rudder all the way to the floor to see how far it went, I didn't.

 At least not before understanding what is going on, and if this is

 limited to our copy.



 After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.  1) Expect the

 unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing

 a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced

 before.  2) Don't do that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the

 risk of what replies are sure to come.



 I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very

 least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if

 the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to

 perform.



 Thanks, Jason Kreidler



 N44YH - Flying

 4 Partner Build #40617

 Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler




	


  	  Quote: 	
		  



====================================

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

====================================

nics.com

====================================

w.matronics.com/contribution

====================================



	
	






=  [quote][b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

Agree. Only really aggressive slip was from 400 AGL on a  one mile final out of an RNAV 6 in weather to minimums. Flaps were reflexed or  perhaps zero, KIAS was 100 and power was at idle and prop full  forward. Since I was flying from the right seat the nose went left and  down, ailerons right, Slip continued to at least 20 degrees nose left until  about 50 AGL. Touchdown was about 2000 ft down a 5000 ft runway in moderate  rain. The left seat pilot was admonishing me not to skid; the prop in flat pitch  and engine at idle were enough to slow and stop. My advice is that in any slip  get the nose down, the objective is to lose the altitude without a  significant increase in airspeed. You definitely don't want the stall one wing  and it is likely that the airspeed indication will not be accurate. It is more  accurate because of the static ports on each side of the aircraft but the  airflow to the pitot will be skewed. 

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Miller  John

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 6:39 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Forward  Slips

I had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with flaps  down). 

 What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure from controlled  flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability.  Much worse slipping  to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends to try to depart  underneath.....not good).

 At 90 kts I could not get it to come close to departing with full rudder  and opposite aileron, but as I slowed 80 kts, you can definitely get it to  depart if you don't know what the seat of your pants is telling you (I did  literally scores of intentional departure from controlled flight maneuvers in my  A-7D days in the AF).  You can quickly break the departure by simply  unloading back pressure on the stick (in the A-7, we released the stick  altogether until the airplane recovered itself (usually very nose low).

 The departure happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded  by the wing low and opposite rudder.

 Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you want to slip the an  RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the horizon to ensure that you  do not lose rudder effectiveness.  This is especially true of the earlier  RV models and their even shorter height rudder than the -10.  Avoid level  attitude or nose up slips.

 I would encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip  (above 5,000' AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you do  inadvertently depart the bird).  You need to feel for yourselves the  approach to departure feel that you get through the seat of your pants.   

 Trim your airplane up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting idle,  then start your slip maneuver near level flight attitude.  Once you feel  that yaw in the seat of your pants, simply release release the rudder while  simultaneously releasing stick back pressure to the neutral position.

 Then remember the secret to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and use  about 90 kts no flap and 80 kts with flaps.

 Hope this helps out

 grumpy

 N184JM

  On Aug 3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com (jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com)  wrote:

  	  Quote: 	

I would like to pass    along a flight test experience I had. 

I initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree flap    setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as it approached    what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its travel the 'tone' of    the airframe changed, and the rudder became much easier to apply, the airplane    'jerked' further into the slip, and felt as if it was going to swap ends.     It did not roll much, just an abrupt yaw.  I then had to apply    opposite rudder to return back to neutral.  I did not get to the rudder    stop.  The rudder almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight    & Balance during this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7".  Note I was using pitch    to maintain airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or track).    

After this happened I spoke with a few    others who are flying, no one had performed this maneuver.  I then spoke    with Ken K. about this while at Oshkosh.  He said he had experienced the    same thing, although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to the    floor.  He could not explain exactly what was causing the problem, he    thought it might be dihedral stability.  I told him the I suppose the    right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied that maneuver may be    required if the flap motor was lost, and you were forced to slow down and land    without flaps. 

I also spoke with    Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the same thing, he said it is    worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and still there at 0 degrees.  I    have done this with one and two notches of 'real' flaps and was able to do    full slips. 

Ken K. asked me (with    a smile) if I had enough 'guts' to get the rudder all the way to the floor to    see how far it went, I didn't.  At least not before understanding what is    going on, and if this is limited to our copy. 

After experiencing this I have a few takeaways.     1) Expect the unexpected, I hate surprises, imagine the surprise while    performing a fairly standard maneuver and getting a result never experienced    before.  2) Don't do that....  3) Share what is learned even at the    risk of what replies are sure to come. 

I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid argument, at very    least we should all understand what our aircraft behave like even if the    maneuver is at the fringe of what we would normally expect to perform.    

Thanks, Jason Kreidler    

N44YH - Flying 

4 Partner Build #40617 

Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason Kreidler  	  Quote: 	

tp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

nics.com

w.matronics.com/contribution

=  [quote]

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

It is called a crossed controlled stall; the aircraft will  snap over and go vertical in less than a second because one wing is producing  lift and the other is stalled. At low altitude always  fatal.

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of  Jim

Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 7:16 PM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Forward  Slips

Sir Grumpy,

What exactly do you mean by "Depart"?  Is it  an uncommanded YAW or ????

I don't understand that term.

Jim Combs  (N312F)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I  had the chance to try this today (I normally only slip with  flaps

down).

What Jason describes is the early onset to a departure  from controlled

flight (depart) due to loss of directional stability. Much  worse

slipping to the left than to the right due to engine torque (tends  to

try to depart underneath.....not good).

At 90 kts I could not get  it to come close to departing with full

rudder and opposite aileron, but as I  slowed 80 kts, you can

definitely get it to depart if you don't know what the  seat of your

pants is telling you (I did literally scores of intentional  departure

from controlled flight maneuvers in my A-7D days in the AF). You  can

quickly break the departure by simply unloading back pressure on  the

stick (in the A-7, we released the stick altogether until the  airplane

recovered itself (usually very nose low).

The departure  happens when the rudder loses effectiveness, compounded

by the wing low and  opposite rudder.

Somewhere in my early RV days, I was told that if you  want to slip the

an RV, you need to make sure the nose is well below the  horizon to

ensure that you do not lose rudder effectiveness. This is  especially

true of the earlier RV models and their even shorter height  rudder

than the -10. Avoid level attitude or nose up slips.

I would  encourage each of you -10 owners to practice the no flap slip

(above 5,000'  AGL in to have a comfortable recovery margin in case you

do inadvertently  depart the bird). You need to feel for yourselves

the approach to departure  feel that you get through the seat of your

pants.

Trim your airplane  up for hands off at about 100 kts, power setting

idle, then start your slip  maneuver near level flight attitude. Once

you feel that yaw in the seat of  your pants, simply release release

the rudder while simultaneously releasing  stick back pressure to the

neutral position.

Then remember the secret  to a slip in the -10: keep the nose low and

use about 90 kts no flap and 80  kts with flaps.

Hope this helps out

grumpy

N184JM

On Aug  3, 2009, at 8:10 AM, jason.kreidler(at)regalbeloit.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 I  would like to pass along a flight test experience I had.

 I  initiated a slip at 85 knots (note well below Va) (zero degree

 flap  setting), the rudder pedal was fairly hard to push, however as

 it  approached what I would guess to be just beyond the middle of its

 travel  the 'tone' of the airframe changed, and the rudder became

 much easier to  apply, the airplane 'jerked' further into the slip,

 and felt as if it  was going to swap ends. It did not roll much,

 just an abrupt yaw. I then  had to apply opposite rudder to return

 back to neutral. I did not get to  the rudder stop. The rudder

 almost felt as if it went 'over center'.  Weight & Balance during

 this test 2510 LBS (at) 112.7". Note I was  using pitch to maintain

 airspeed, and aileron to control heading (or  track).

 After this happened I spoke with a few others who are  flying, no one

 had performed this maneuver. I then spoke with Ken K.  about this

 while at Oshkosh. He said he had experienced the same  thing,

 although he entered it quickly by stomping the rudder pedal to  the

 floor. He could not explain exactly what was causing the  problem,

 he thought it might be dihedral stability. I told him the I  suppose

 the right answer is "don't do that", he quickly replied  that

 maneuver may be required if the flap motor was lost, and you  were

 forced to slow down and land without flaps.

 I also  spoke with Alex D. about this, he has also experienced the

 same thing,  he said it is worse when you have -3 degrees reflex, and

 still there at  0 degrees. I have done this with one and two notches

 of 'real' flaps and  was able to do full slips.

 Ken K. asked me (with a smile) if I  had enough 'guts' to get the

 rudder all the way to the floor to see how  far it went, I didn't.

 At least not before understanding what is going  on, and if this is

 limited to our copy.

 After  experiencing this I have a few takeaways. 1) Expect the

 unexpected, I  hate surprises, imagine the surprise while performing

 a fairly standard  maneuver and getting a result never experienced

 before. 2) Don't do  that.... 3) Share what is learned even at the

 risk of what replies are  sure to come.

 I say don't do that but I believe Ken has a valid  argument, at very

 least we should all understand what our aircraft  behave like even if

 the maneuver is at the fringe of what we would  normally expect to

 perform.

 Thanks, Jason  Kreidler

 N44YH - Flying

 4 Partner Build #40617

  Tony Kolar - Kyle Hokel - Wayne Elsner - Jason  Kreidler

[quote]

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c

[b]

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:15 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

Miller John wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Depart means just that - the airplane "departs" from controlled flight - 

 usually violently unlike a stall because it is often (but not always) 

 induced by cross controls to start with. 

 

 Longitudinal stability (controlled by the vertical stabilizer and 

 rudder) is lost and the airplane then yaws followed by a rolling moment 

 and possible tumbling (especially pronounced in swept wing aircraft). 

  Straight wing aircraft usually snap roll rather than tumble.  Which way 

 it rolls depends on any roll input compounded by torque effects of the 

 engine.  

Hmmm .... the airplane shouldn't snap roll unless the rudder and 
	


elevator is applied aggressively.  Read "shouldn't" again.  If one wing 

doesn't stall, then the snap roll doesn't occur.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 Had I held my left slip controls in for a second or two longer in today, 

 it would have snap rolled underneath with a forward pitching moment to 

 boot.  Impossible to recover from in the traffic pattern.

I'm curious .... do you have the experience (I think you do)to try this 
	


at altitude?  The fact that a common forward slip morphs into some other 

flight regime is troubling to me.

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The loss of longitudinal stability is seen as yaw (if you're watching 

 the ball - which I hope you are not when doing this maneuver).  the Yaw 

 is most quickly felt through the seat of the pants - going sideways in 

 the seat.

 

 Whenever you get this feeling in the seat of your pants, your first 

 response must be to release back stick pressure and neutralize ailerons 

 and rudder.  That will keep the departure from happening.

 

 Having to dig back a few years into my fighter pilot past for this.....

The mental picture of an A7 in a slip causes me some chuckles.  Did you 
	


really???



When I read the original poster of the rudder thread my thoughts were 

that the rudder was blanked by the wing somehow .... but I'd just have 

to be there.  Interesting thread.

Linn

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 grumpy

 N184JM

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2879

Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: Forward Slips

Rick,



Make sure that if you're going to hit the ground, you NEVER do it

with bank angles of over 90 degrees or inverted.  If you always

try to hit the ground wings level, 70-80kts, slightly nose above

the horizon, there shouldn't be many opportunities for you to

use in-flight insurance. 



Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:

[quote] 

 

 That may be (aerobatics) but my insurance is null and void past 90

 degrees angle of bank. or inverted..so Linn when you get here

 remember that or we will talk!!!  He said with a big smile!!!! Sent

 via BlackBerry by AT&T

 

 --

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:29 am Post subject: Forward Slips

Lol...Thats my plan!!!! But you can't help but think of a claims examiner reviewing the GPS track such as the one the NTSB has in their detailed report for Dan's crash. Seems they could question coverage if no acro was specified in the policy, not that I would care much since I would most likely not be needing any cash except the heavens gate toll....If I'm lucky or bribe money to get out of HE double toothpicks!!!



Rick "Straight and level no more than 60 degree bank" Sked

N246RS

---

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