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601 to 650....is it worth it?

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crvsecretary

Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Naugatuck, CT

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

 	  Quote: 	
		  Hello Everyone:



Like everyone else, I have been reading about the tests and trials of our beloved homebuilt of choice and have taken note of the 650 series released by Zenith.  All of this has

resulted in a self-imposed condition of 'builders paralysis'...I've done nothing for a very long time !  I'm about 1/2 way through the right wing with the tail feathers complete. 



After looking through the list of 601 to 650 'improvements', I just cannot see through the advantages - or the possibilities - of incorporating these improvements into my airplane. 

The new canopy is a no-brainer and is designed to retrofit - that's a good thing.  But some changes - such as the angle of incidence - are just not possible or practical...yes?



What does the consensus think?  My thoughts are to continue building the wings but NOT closing them up until well after recommendations are issued by Zenith,

and to order the 601 fuselage kit with the 650 canopy.  My thoughts are that's the limit of 'improvements' I can make without some serious rework of my completed items.



Anyone care to share their thoughts?



Thank You in advance



Tracy Smith

N458XL (reserved) - Corvair powered

Naugatuck, CT

	
 

     

  [quote][b]

_________________
Zenith 601XL N458XL (reserved)
Naugatuck, CT
Tail Complete; working on wings

z601a(at)anemicaardvark.c
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

On Friday 07 August 2009 11:42, crvsecretary(at)aol.com wrote: 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Like everyone else, I have been reading about the tests and trials of our 

 beloved homebuilt of choice and have taken note of the 650 series released 

 by Zenith.  All of this has resulted in a self-imposed condition of 

 'builders paralysis'...I've done nothing for a very long time !  I'm about 

 1/2 way through the right wing with the tail feathers complete. 

 
	


I'm still chugging along. I figure this stuff will get resolved somehow or other. As Chris Heintz pointed out, most of the accidents have been people who did not build their planes. That suggests familiarity reduces the probability of difficulty when flying - a rather obvious statement, but perhaps more true in this case than in many. 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   After looking through the list of 601 to 650 'improvements', I just cannot 

 see through the advantages - or the possibilities - of incorporating these 

 improvements into my airplane. The new canopy is a no-brainer and is 

 designed to retrofit - that's a good thing.  But some changes - such as the 

 angle of incidence - are just not possible or practical...yes? 

 
	


I cannot see any obvious merit to the 650 improvements in my application. True, the new canopy gives more headroom, but it does so at the expense of the baggage compartment. If I had the 650 canopy, my baggage would rub against, and no doubt scar, the canopy. But to each his own. 

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   What does the consensus think?  My thoughts are to continue building the 

 wings but NOT closing them up until well after recommendations are issued 

 by Zenith, and to order the 601 fuselage kit with the 650 canopy.  My 

 thoughts are that's the limit of 'improvements' I can make without some 

 serious rework of my completed items. 

 
	


I find myself wondering if we will in fact see any meaningful recommendations from Zenith. That being the case, I'm sealing things as I go. This may prove to be a mistake, but without a firmer indication of the exact problem, just adding structure or balancing things seems to me to be grasping at straws. Zenith may be forced to do that for political reasons, but that's solving a problem of a different sort. 

 

 

 

--  

============================================= 

                Do not archive. 

============================================= 

                Jim B Belcher 

    BS, MS Physics, Math, Computer Science 

                  A&P/IA 

     Retired aerospace technical manager 

=============================================  [quote][b]

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Biggest reason would be for perception/reputation/resale value.



You'd probably do better selling an airplane registered as a "650" than you would one registered as an "XL", even through they are the same airplane.



Try this experiment:  next time you're with a group of pilots, mention the XL.  Likely somebody in that group will chime in about wing issues.  Then ask that person what they think about the 650...



I should add that I'm comfortable enough that the "issues" have been mitigated that I am forging on ahead with my project am and looking forward to flying it.  



- Pat

Last edited by PatrickW on Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total

lwinger

Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 229
Location: Tustin, CA

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

 	  Quote: 	
		   	  Quote: 	
		  	
	


 Tracy,



 I was working on the fuselage when the 650 became available.  Because I am 6'6", making the shift to the 650 canopy was a given.  I also liked the new latch system.  Because I had done everything to that point based upon the 601XL angle of incidence, I elected not to change that, but incorporated virtually every other modification offered by the 650 (including remaking my rudder).

   

 From what I have heard, the 650 baggage tunnel is a bear to make because of the compound curves.  The 650 has no such curves and is a snap to build.  On the other hand, everyone who has done both the 601XL and the 650 canopy has told me that the 650 canopy is harder to install.  Splitting the canopy adds a whole new level of complexity, which I now completely understand.  Having said that, if you are going with the 650 canopy, I would strongly advise you to build the 650 top rear structure that goes with it, so you don't get the worst of both worlds (difficult 601XL baggage tunnel and difficult 650 canopy).

   

 In reality, there aren't that many parts that distinguish the 601XL from the 650 in the areas of the rear bulkheads/rear top skin and baggage floor.  In order to avoid converting a 601XL baggage tunnel into a 650 canopy system, I would swap out the 601XL middle and baggage back bulkheads, rear top skin and baggage floor for the 650 counterparts, and then enjoy the benefits of a clean 650 install.  If you'd like more details on the specific items that are different, feel free to contact me off line.

   

 Just my 2 cents worth.  Have fun, whichever way you go.

  

 Larry Winger

 650/Corvair

 Canopy 99% finished

 Tustin, CA

  [quote][b]

_________________
Larry Winger
Tustin, CA
Plans building 601XL/650 with Corvair
Installing fuel system
www.mykitlog.com/lwinger

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:05 am Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Keep one big thing in mind if you are thinking of making the switch.



The 601 kits both quick and slow build are grandfathered in under the old 51% list. The 650 isn't on that list. 



The good news is the FAA has backed off of their original plan which was very complex and would be hit or miss and would have certainly effected the quick build kits. 



The bad news is the new version of the rule was just announced at OSH and really hasn't been vetted yet.



That said if you want the changes of the 650 there is noting in the world stopping you from calling it a 601XL.

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

See my comments in bold.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

http://sites.google.com/site/billplane/

From: "crvsecretary(at)aol.com" <crvsecretary(at)aol.com>

To: zenith-list(at)matronics.com

Sent: Friday, August 7, 2009 12:42:58 PM

Subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?



   	  Quote: 	
		  Hello Everyone:Like everyone else, I have been reading about the tests and trials of our beloved homebuilt of choice and have taken note of the 650 series released by Zenith.  All of this hasresulted in a self-imposed condition of 'builders paralysis'...I've done nothing for a very long time !  I'm about 1/2 way through the right wing with the tail feathers complete. I haven't stopped working, I believe that if a modification is provided, it would be retro-fitable to a finished plane. Keep in mind that I'm building from plans so my progressis slower than kit builders.

 After looking through the list of 601 to 650 'improvements', I just cannot see through the advantages - or the possibilities - of incorporating these improvements into my airplane. The new canopy is a no-brainer and is designed to retrofit - that's a good thing.  But some changes - such as the angle of incidence - are just not possible or practical...yes?The canopy is an area where I'm also undecided so far. I like the 650 latching mechanism and the rollover bar but like the XL canopy in almost everything else. For a whileI have been considering putting the 601 XL canopy with the new latch and rollover bars. Adding the new latch to the 601 XL canopy would not be a problem but the rollover bars is another story.What does the consensus think?  My thoughts are to continue building the wings but NOT closing them

 up until well after recommendations are issued by Zenith,That is a good idea, postpone closing the wings as much as possible, but only as long as building continues with something else in the project. I wouldn't stop my project waiting for a recommendation or a mod.  

and to order the 601 fuselage kit with the 650 canopy.  My thoughts are that's the limit of 'improvements' I can make without some serious rework of my completed items.



Anyone care to share their thoughts?



Thank You in advance



Tracy Smith

N458XL (reserved) - Corvair powered

Naugatuck, CT

	
 

     

  [quote]

[b]

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

Gig Giacona

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1416
Location: El Dorado Arkansas USA

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:03 pm Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

What comments?

 	  William Dominguez wrote: 	
		  See my comments in bold.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida

_________________
W.R. "Gig" Giacona
601XL Under Construction
See my progress at www.peoamerica.net/N601WR

psm(at)att.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:10 pm Post subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Hi Tracy,



If you are anything like me, by the time the changes are released 

from Zenith you will have become a real expert at drilling out 

rivets.  So, My recommendation is to go ahead at your own pace and 

complete things as you get to them.



Paul

XL waiting for engineering changes

At 09:42 AM 8/7/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  My thoughts are to continue building the wings but NOT closing them 

up until well after recommendations are issued by Zenith,

larry(at)macsmachine.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:24 pm Post subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Tracy,

I'd recommend you continue work on your plane and consider the canopy 

with a roll bar but not in separate pieces. The rear half of the canopy 

would seem

to get in the way of access and egress. The latch is neat, much simpler. 

I've finally got confidence in the old system having taken time to 

clearly mark a lock

position, but if I were to do over, the new latch is a more secure method



Larry McFarland 601HDS at www.macsmachine.com  (140.5 hours on Stratus 

Subaru and Warp Drive)

William Dominguez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   See my comments in bold.



 William Dominguez

 Zodiac 601XL Plans

 Miami Florida

 http://sites.google.com/site/billplane/



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 *From:* "crvsecretary(at)aol.com" <crvsecretary(at)aol.com>

 *To:* zenith-list(at)matronics.com

 *Sent:* Friday, August 7, 2009 12:42:58 PM

 *Subject:* 601 to 650....is it worth it?



 Hello Everyone:



 Like everyone else, I have been reading about the tests and trials of our beloved homebuilt of choice and have taken note of the 650 series released by Zenith.  All of this has



 resulted in a self-imposed condition of 'builders paralysis'...I've done nothing for a very long time !  I'm about 1/2 way through the right wing with the tail feathers complete. 



 I haven't stopped working, I believe that if a modification is provided, it would be retro-fitable to a finished plane. Keep in mind that I'm building from plans so my progress

 is slower than kit builders.



  



 After looking through the list of 601 to 650 'improvements', I just cannot see through the advantages - or the possibilities - of incorporating these improvements into my airplane. 



 The new canopy is a no-brainer and is designed to retrofit - that's a good thing.  But some changes - such as the angle of incidence - are just not possible or practical...yes?

 The canopy is an area where I'm also undecided so far. I like the 650 latching mechanism and the rollover bar but like the XL canopy in almost everything else. For a while

 I have been considering putting the 601 XL canopy with the new latch and rollover bars. Adding the new latch to the 601 XL canopy would not be a problem but the rollover 

 bars is another story.



 What does the consensus think?  My thoughts are to continue building the wings but NOT closing them

  up until well after recommendations are issued by Zenith,

 That is a good idea, postpone closing the wings as much as possible, but only as long as building continues with something else in the project. 

 I wouldn't stop my project waiting for a recommendation or a mod. 



  

 and to order the 601 fuselage kit with the 650 canopy.  My thoughts are that's the limit of 'improvements' I can make without some serious rework of my completed items.



 Anyone care to share their thoughts?



 Thank You in advance



 Tracy Smith



 N458XL (reserved) - Corvair powered



 Naugatuck, CT



 *

 *

 *

 *

Ron Lendon

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Clinton Twp., MI

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Tracy,



I'm building to the plans marked CH 601 XL.  I might call it something else when I register it, I am the manufacturer and can call it whatever I want.



The XL has been flow for quite sometime now and I really think it will be a good airplane for my mission.

_________________
Ron Lendon
WW Corvair with Roy's Garage 5th bearing
CH 601 XLB
N601LT - Flying
http://www.mykitlog.com/rlendon
Corvair Engine Prints:
https://sites.google.com/site/corvairenginedata/

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

They should come thru this time, at least I can now see them in the preview, if you still can't see them, try the forum view of the list.



William Dominguez



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  What comments?

 	  William Dominguez wrote: 	
		  See my comments in bold.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida 	
	




Hello Everyone:



Like everyone else, I have been reading about the tests and trials of our beloved homebuilt of choice and have taken note of the 650 series released by Zenith. All of this has resulted in a self-imposed condition of 'builders paralysis'...I've done nothing for a very long time ! I'm about 1/2 way through the right wing with the tail feathers complete. 



I haven't stopped working, I believe that if a modification is provided, it would be retro-fitable to a finished plane. Keep in mind that I'm building from plans so my progress is slower than kit builders.



After looking through the list of 601 to 650 'improvements', I just cannot see through the advantages - or the possibilities - of incorporating these improvements into my airplane. The new canopy is a no-brainer and is designed to retrofit - that's a good thing. But some changes - such as the angle of incidence - are just not possible or practical...yes?



The canopy is an area where I'm also undecided so far. I like the 650 latching mechanism and the rollover bar but like the XL canopy in almost everything else. For a while I have been considering putting the 601 XL canopy with the new latch and rollover bars. Adding the new latch to the 601 XL canopy would not be a problem but the rollover bars is another story.



What does the consensus think? My thoughts are to continue building the wings but NOT closing them up until well after recommendations are issued by Zenith,



That is a good idea, postpone closing the wings as much as possible, but only as long as building continues with something else in the project. I wouldn't stop my project waiting for a recommendation or a mod.





and to order the 601 fuselage kit with the 650 canopy. My thoughts are that's the limit of 'improvements' I can make without some serious rework of my completed items.



Anyone care to share their thoughts?



Thank You in advance



Tracy Smith

N458XL (reserved) - Corvair powered

Naugatuck, CT

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

William Dominguez

Joined: 09 Apr 2008
Posts: 118

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Let's see if it work now, my comments are in bold and italics.



William Dominguez



 	  William Dominguez wrote: 	
		  They should come thru this time, at least I can now see them in the preview, if you still can't see them, try the forum view of the list.



William Dominguez



 	  Gig Giacona wrote: 	
		  What comments?

 	  William Dominguez wrote: 	
		  See my comments in bold.



William Dominguez

Zodiac 601XL Plans

Miami Florida 	
	




Hello Everyone:



Like everyone else, I have been reading about the tests and trials of our beloved homebuilt of choice and have taken note of the 650 series released by Zenith. All of this has resulted in a self-imposed condition of 'builders paralysis'...I've done nothing for a very long time ! I'm about 1/2 way through the right wing with the tail feathers complete. 



I haven't stopped working, I believe that if a modification is provided, it would be retro-fitable to a finished plane. Keep in mind that I'm building from plans so my progress is slower than kit builders.



After looking through the list of 601 to 650 'improvements', I just cannot see through the advantages - or the possibilities - of incorporating these improvements into my airplane. The new canopy is a no-brainer and is designed to retrofit - that's a good thing. But some changes - such as the angle of incidence - are just not possible or practical...yes?



The canopy is an area where I'm also undecided so far. I like the 650 latching mechanism and the rollover bar but like the XL canopy in almost everything else. For a while I have been considering putting the 601 XL canopy with the new latch and rollover bars. Adding the new latch to the 601 XL canopy would not be a problem but the rollover bars is another story.



What does the consensus think? My thoughts are to continue building the wings but NOT closing them up until well after recommendations are issued by Zenith,



That is a good idea, postpone closing the wings as much as possible, but only as long as building continues with something else in the project. I wouldn't stop my project waiting for a recommendation or a mod.





and to order the 601 fuselage kit with the 650 canopy. My thoughts are that's the limit of 'improvements' I can make without some serious rework of my completed items.



Anyone care to share their thoughts?



Thank You in advance



Tracy Smith

N458XL (reserved) - Corvair powered

Naugatuck, CT

_________________
William Dominguez
Zodiac 601XL Plans
Miami Florida
http://www.geocities.com/bill_dom

jmaynard

Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 394
Location: Fairmont, MN (FRM)

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

On Fri, Aug 07, 2009 at 05:31:29PM -0700, William Dominguez wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Let's see if it work now, my comments are in bold and italics.


	


Not everyone reads email in HTML.

-- 

Jay Maynard, K5ZC, PP-ASEL, CFI-SP   http://www.conmicro.com

http://jmaynard.livejournal.com       http://www.tronguy.net

Fairmont, MN (KFRM)                        (Yes, that's me!)

AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC http://www.tronguy.net/N55ZC.shtml

_________________
Jay Maynard, K5ZC
AMD Zodiac XLi N55ZC

chuck960

Joined: 11 Mar 2009
Posts: 44
Location: PA

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Since I am building the 650 kit I feel qualified to throw in a penny or two.

I see little advantage to change the wing incidence if you already have 601 parts. The angle change of 2 degrees is to make it easier to see over the nose. You need different front side skins, the four parts that make up the seat bottom, arm rest, rear wing attachment parts and more. The canopy switch might be worth it though. I really like the way it looks. It depends on how deep your pockets are and how tall you are.

PatrickW

Joined: 27 Oct 2006
Posts: 380
Location: Fort Worth, Texas

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:12 am Post subject: Re: 601 to 650....is it worth it?

Guys who are not of above-average height could go with the one-piece XL canopy, but with the 650 latch system.  



That's the best of both worlds.  The two-piece 650 canopy (that I went with) is a lot of work, but the 650 latch system isn't too bad.   



I'm 6'3", and while I've flown in a number of traditional XL's, the additional head room that the 650 canopy provides is welcome.   For tall guys it starts to matter if you're "tall torso'd" or "tall legged".



- Pat

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