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Automotive Plug Alert

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cpayne(at)joimail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:16 am Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough mag operation.

  

 While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3 years ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away. While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags and haven't changed much since.

  

 My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight. Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings, I would go back to the BR6HS.

  

 Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get the chance.

  

 Craig Payne

 cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)

  

  

 

  [quote][b]

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig?  I understand about the problem.  I understand that you were comparing resistive to non-resistive plugs.  Using the term: "YOU MUST USE RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong.  I'll talk to you about it off line.  Rog?  

  

 Later, 

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com> wrote:



  	  Quote: 	
		  

From: Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com>

Subject: Automotive Plug Alert

To: "yak-list" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM



   When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough mag operation.

  

 While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3 years ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away. While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags and haven't changed much since.

  

 My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight. Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings, I would go back to the BR6HS.

  

 Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get the chance.

  

 Craig Payne

 cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)

  

  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  



=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-List

et=_blank>http://forums.matronics.com

llow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


	
 [quote][b]

n395v

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 450

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert

How about discussing it online so the rest of us can benefit from the discussion?

_________________
Milt

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:13 pm Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

Craig,  

I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its’ M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50  without the problem to date. I have had the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK’s. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I changed the plugs to the NGK’s and did the plug wire conversion. That led to a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another setting.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

              

Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion   Craig?  I understand about the problem.  I understand that you were   comparing resistive to non-resistive plugs.  Using the term: "YOU   MUST USE RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong.  I'll talk to you about   it off line.  Rog?     

      

    

      

Later,    

      

    

      

Mark Bitterlich   

      



   

   --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com>   wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com>

   Subject: Automotive Plug Alert

   To: "yak-list" <yak-list(at)matronics.com>

   Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM            

When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14   type engines, you MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type   may conduct an excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils,   leading to rough mag operation.   

      

    

      

While discussing teething problems in the latest modified   M-14P engine with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the   same problem 3 years ago but never quite made the connection to overheating   of the coils. My situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my   way through the pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting   thread and switched spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my   problems went away. While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I   shelved the mags and haven't changed much since.   

      

    

      

My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but   in another airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the   flight. Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to   better match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power   settings, I would go back to the BR6HS.   

      

    

      

Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a   bit when I get the chance.   

      

    

      

Craig Payne   

      

cpayne(at)joimail.com   

      

    

      

    

    	  Quote: 	
		    =nofollow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Yak-Listet=_blank>http://forums.matronics.comllow target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution 	


   

   	
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       [quote][b]

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

Doc,You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!  

I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the centers.  Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russian plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the ceramics??  All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bets are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be used.

 



I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at this time my ignition harness seems to be good.  It would seem to me that if all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon be obvious.  

 



Doug



On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		                

Craig,  

I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its’ M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50  without the problem to date. I have had the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK’s. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I changed the plugs to the NGK’s and did the plug wire conversion. That led to a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another setting.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

              

Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion   Craig?  I understand about the problem.  I understand that you were   comparing resistive to non-resistive plugs.  Using the term: "YOU   MUST USE RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong.  I'll talk to you about   it off line.  Rog?     

      

    

      

Later,    

      

    

      

Mark Bitterlich   

      



   

   --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)>   wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)>

   Subject: Automotive Plug Alert

   To: "yak-list" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

   Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM            

When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14   type engines, you MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type   may conduct an excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils,   leading to rough mag operation.   

      

    

      

While discussing teething problems in the latest modified   M-14P engine with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the   same problem 3 years ago but never quite made the connection to overheating   of the coils. My situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my   way through the pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting   thread and switched spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my   problems went away. While I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I   shelved the mags and haven't changed much since.   

      

    

      

My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but   in another airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the   flight. Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to   better match the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power   settings, I would go back to the BR6HS.   

      

    

      

Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a   bit when I get the chance.   

      

    

      

Craig Payne   

      

cpayne(at)joimail.com   

      

    

      

    

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-- 

Always Yakin,

Doug Sapp

Phone 509-826-4610

Fax 509-826-3644

 

  [quote][b]

vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

We have been running ND's for years now.  MSD spiral racing wire.  And you can use 3/4" plugs with no problems as the stock plugs are really too short.  We have run many checks with the cylinders off, use projected tips and 3/4" and it helps get them out of the oil on the bottom cylinders.  If you look into your spark plug hole you will see several carboned over threads the stock plugs don't reach.  If you go with 3/4 just run a plug tap to first to clean out those threads.  I have installed over ten systems and nary a problem, but we use only the best stuff, not NAPA cheap stuff.  If you want to go nuts like us you can index the plugs with varying thickness washers like racers do, I do this just because I am weird. I can't really tell if it helps but as I said I am weird!

 

 We have these on Sukhoi's, Yaks, Nanchangs, etc.  Zero problems, all positives.  As for stock plugs you are using 1930's technology, nothing more.  With modern auto plugs you are state of the art.  And remember modern plugs are build to withstand way more than 12.0:1 compressions ratios, we have never had a plug failure or leakage.

 

 You will see almost zero mag drop with auto, easier starting and of course 2 dollar throw away plugs.  Also we do air cooling to the mags, as heat is what kills electrical components, so we have had no mag problems either. 

 

 Tally Ho!

 

  Vector Warbirds USA 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

mark.bitterlich(at)navy.m
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:10 am Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

Because I am trying not to open a box of worms for no real gain.  But I

understand your point.. And you asked, so here we go.  



Anyone that wants to can simply Google "resistive" versus

"non-resistive" spark plugs and gain insight on how and why they work

the way that they do.  The intended goal of resistive plugs was (and

mainly still is) to reduce EMI caused by "ringing" of the spark plug

pulse that can emit energy right on up into the Radio Frequency range.

Keep in mind that the very first radios used "spark gap" transmitters

and their designs were in some ways very similar to an aircraft Mag

firing a spark plug!  



So, if you reduce the ringing effect, you also reduce the generation of

energy in the RF range, and thus reduce EMI to radios, VOR's, or

anything else that works with Radio Frequency (RF).  



This RF energy could get so strong that it could impact computer

controlled ignition systems, so there was yet another reason to use

Resistive Spark Plugs with more modern computer based ignition systems.

However, in the beginning, a lot of people tried different approaches to

this problem.  They actually put resistors in the ignition leads

themselves versus in the spark plugs.  Works the same way.  



Another big improvement in suppressing mag/spark-plug generated

Electro-Magnetic-Interference (EMI) was with the development of

resistive plug wires.  These wires have a resistive value somewhere in

the 4-8 Kilo-ohm range.  Typically using a fiberglass core impregnated

with carbon in the early designs, these wires also helped to suppress RF

energy from being radiated and thus causing EMI.  



Another way to control the emission of this energy is to simply ignore

it and make no attempt to stop it from being generated,  but instead try

to CONTAIN it within some kind of Faraday Shield.  Basically a metal

covering that is grounded.  Shielded wire falls into this category, as

does wire that is contained in a grounded metal pipe.  



Now think of the original design used in the M-14 engines.  Take a look

at the plug wires that came with this aircraft.  They were stranded

solid wire cores.  This is the very best way to get energy from the mag

to the spark plugs.  On the other hand, the insulation on the Russian

wire was pretty poor, allowing breakdown, cross-firing, and other bad

stuff to happen... But the PREMISE of the design was typical and very

good.  These spark plug wires were contained in a TOTALLY shielded

structure to prevent the very strong RF fields from escaping and being

radiated as EMI.  Ditto the spark plugs themselves.  Totally contained

in metal shields, nothing left open to radiate, and these plugs were not

resistive... At least the ones I used, although I am no expert on all

the plug types out there.  The ones I used had solid copper cores... It

least the one that I cut in half and looked at had that design.   



So, now enter the new wire and automotive spark plug design that Dennis

originally offered.  It uses ... As I remember anyway... 8 mm Taylor

spiral wound high performance, RF suppressant (read resistive) racing

wire.  A silicone insulation layer, and a design that is much more

modern than what the Russians used.  Although keep in mind that it is

pretty hard to beat a totally contained ignition system, inside of metal

grounded pipes, when it comes to doing away with radio noise.  As good

as the new system is, it is to be expected that there might be a very

SLIGHT increase in ignition noise.  This additional noise, if it even

shows itself, can also be addressed with other preventive measures, so

it is not a big deal. 



Never-the-less, we now are using resistive wires AND resistive plugs,

and the result is a pretty low EMI level, and no more problems with

insulation and/or replacement... Which before this change was a pure "T"

son of a (you know what) to locate, then change and repair.  It was a

PAIN IN THE BUTT!  And now is very easy.  



Which brings us to the statement of resistive versus non-resistive plugs

burning out mags. 



The first question would be: "Why run non-resistive plugs to begin

with?"  Well, they do spark a little hotter, and thus you can get more

energy out of them in specific applications, if you want to deal with

the increased EMI.  Let's say drag racing for example.  I see little

reason to use them in an aircraft engine, so the whole point is kind of

moot to begin with in my opinion.  But... It is a good engineering

question, and I like that kind of discussion!  So.. Here we are.  



But that said, and simply for the sake of discussion, I've never heard

of, or read of, anyone claiming that non-resistive plugs would or could

damage a mag in any way.  Also keep in mind that I am not questioning

what Craig said happened to him!    



Craig said he ran into a problem where he believed something bad

happened.  I THINK... Which means I am not sure... But I THINK he came

to this conclusion because he ran non-resistive plugs and had a problem,

and then ran resistive plugs and the problem went away.  And.. He saw

this happen more than once.



The simple conclusion then is to say: "NEVER RUN NON-RESISTIVE PLUGS".

I do not question what happened to him.  It may indeed be good advice

based on what happened to him.  But in theory, it should not have

happened, and I question his conclusions based on what I feel is a lack

of enough engineering data.  Why?  Because the original design used

solid low resistance (meaning NON-RESISTIVE) wire AND plugs.  So why

would using non-resistive plugs NOW, combined with the fact that we are

also now using RESISTIVE wire cause a problem in a mag that ran fine

before?  



Honestly... I am not sure.  But it very easily could be caused by other

factors and partial failures or degradation in the mag itself.  Two

things come to mind.  First the condenser, second the coil.  We know

that there are temperature induced failures in the coil.  This is well

documented.  In fact, the condenser is also suspect in a situation like

this.  Craig changed out whole mags in troubleshooting this problem.  He

did not replace specific components of the mag, (and neither would I

given the difficulty level of doing so) so I suspect that some

assumptions were made.  



A good analogy here would be:  "Yo Bob, if you plug a toaster into that

electrical outlet, it will blow up and burn down my house, so don't do

that please!".   So, you can put a sign over the outlet and made sure

everyone knows that a fire will occur.  Or.. You can go in and fix the

outlet so that you can plug anything into it that you want to.  



Bottom line.... I think there is more going on with this incident than

simply saying: "Don't run non-resistive plugs... EVER!... As in: Don't

plug in the toaster."   I believe it is possible that this is just

evidence of the tip of an iceberg, and it may be something worth knowing

about.  



So simply put... I am not saying that Craig is wrong.  I am saying I am

not sure that he is right, and I thought we might talk about it and see

what we might come up with and report it back to the net later, and save

everyone from my typical but overlong postings.    Like this one.  



But you asked....   



Mark

--

jimscjs(at)mbay.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 2:11 pm Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

I'm with Doug, Since 1995 of owning several CJ's I  have never had a Chinese  Plug come apart, I have had a few replaced for  not passing a Pressure Check, but never a Blow out with one, and I've replaced  alott of Chinese Plugs, this is why I still use them and not the U.S Plug  conversions.

 Jim

 [quote]   ---

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

Doug,  

I resent and take it personal that you feel I seem to be special when it comes to shit happening. Yes one of the plugs I had trouble with blowing out was a Russian plug on the YAK 52. I replaced all the plugs with Chinese plugs after that approximately 3 years ago that came from you  via Dennis. I have been running those plugs since without an issue. When I was cleaning and testing all my plugs, re gapping them, and then putting them in the testor, I found one that was cracked and breaking down under load. The core did not blow out. No I did not drop the plug. The torque when I put them in a year ago was 25 ft/lbs. I replaced it with a new plug…from you as a matter of fact. I think if I search around in my junk box I can find that plug. I’ll send it to you if you like. No the plug did not blow out like the Ru plugs did. No I’m not out to kill you plug business. I personally think the Chinese plugs have performed well.  But with shit statements like this one I will certainly consider ripping my perfectly good new Ru harness out and replace the plugs with NGK’s if we are going to get into pissing contests about one cracked ceramic insert out of 18 in 3 years of fairly hard use in the 52.  

Now as the plugs relate to the 50 here is the story and I’m sticking to it.   

The 50 came through KS via  a Shackety IRAN. Yes I found two  plugs breaking down with cracked ceramic cores on them when they were put on the Testor. Since the wiring harness was old on that plane, I chose to replace the whole system with Dennis’ auto plug conversion kit. I have not been disappointed with the change. I have also not been disappointed with the Chinese plugs I have in the 52 3 years later.   

No Doug, I did not look to close at the hieroglyphics scribbled on the sides of those plugs but it certainly did not look Cyrilic but I’m not a linguist.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp

 Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:28 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

   

Doc,    

You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!    

    

   

    

I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the centers.  Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russian plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the ceramics??  All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bets are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be used.  

    

   

    

I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at this time my ignition harness seems to be good.  It would seem to me that if all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon be obvious.    

    

   

    

Doug    

On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:      

Craig,  

I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its’ M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50  without the problem to date. I have had the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK’s. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I changed the plugs to the NGK’s and did the plug wire conversion. That led to a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another setting.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

              

Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig?  I   understand about the problem.  I understand that you were comparing   resistive to non-resistive plugs.  Using the term: "YOU MUST USE   RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong.  I'll talk to you about it off   line.  Rog?     

      

    

      

Later,    

      

    

      

Mark Bitterlich   

      



   

   --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)> wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)>

   Subject: Automotive Plug Alert

   To: "yak-list" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

   Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM            

When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you   MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an   excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough mag   operation.   

      

    

      

While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine   with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3   years ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My   situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the   pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched   spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away. While   I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags and   haven't changed much since.   

      

    

      

My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another   airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.   Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better match   the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings, I   would go back to the BR6HS.   

      

    

      

Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get   the chance.   

      

    

      

Craig Payne   

      

cpayne(at)joimail.com   

      

    

      

    

    	  Quote: 	
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 -- 

 Always Yakin,

 Doug Sapp

 Phone 509-826-4610

 Fax 509-826-3644  

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viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

Blown was a poor term. Breaking down under pressure on the testor would have been a better choice of words. My bad.  

Doc  

       

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim

 Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 4:43 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

  

     

I'm with Doug, Since 1995 of owning several CJ's I have never had a Chinese  Plug come apart, I have had a few replaced for not passing a Pressure Check, but never a Blow out with one, and I've replaced alott of Chinese Plugs, this is why I still use them and not the U.S Plug conversions.  

    

Jim  

   	  Quote: 	
		      

----- Original Message -----   

    

From: doug sapp (dougsappllc(at)gmail.com)   

    

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)   

    

Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 8:27 AM  

    

Subject: Re: Yak-List: Automotive Plug Alert  

    

   

  

Doc,     

You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!    

    

   

    

I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the centers.  Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russian plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the ceramics??  All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bets are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be used.  

    

   

    

I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at this time my ignition harness seems to be good.  It would seem to me that if all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon be obvious.    

    

   

    

Doug    

On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:      

Craig,  

I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its’ M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50  without the problem to date. I have had the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK’s. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I changed the plugs to the NGK’s and did the plug wire conversion. That led to a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another setting.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

              

Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig?  I   understand about the problem.  I understand that you were comparing   resistive to non-resistive plugs.  Using the term: "YOU MUST USE   RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong.  I'll talk to you about it off   line.  Rog?     

      

    

      

Later,    

      

    

      

Mark Bitterlich   

      



   

   --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)> wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)>

   Subject: Automotive Plug Alert

   To: "yak-list" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

   Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM            

When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you   MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an   excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough mag   operation.   

      

    

      

While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine   with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3   years ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My   situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the   pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched   spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away. While   I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags and   haven't changed much since.   

      

    

      

My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another   airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.   Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better match   the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings, I   would go back to the BR6HS.   

      

    

      

Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get   the chance.   

      

    

      

Craig Payne   

      

cpayne(at)joimail.com   

      

    

      

    

    	  Quote: 	
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 -- 

 Always Yakin,

 Doug Sapp

 Phone 509-826-4610

 Fax 509-826-3644  

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wlannon(at)persona.ca
Guest

Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:47 pm Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

On Chinese spark plugs.

  

 I just yesterday replaced a set of DZ5  plugs at a CJ6 annual inspection.  The reason for replacement was  simply that they had 393 Hrs in service.  They  were showing some wear  though still operating just fine but certifying for a further 100 Hrs.  was a little problematic

  

 Champion could take some lessons from the  Chinese

  

 Walt

  

  

 [quote]   ---

yakplt(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

You're absolutely right Walt, but to be fair ... let's compare how many times I can replace the NGK's with brand new plugs, for the same cost of one of the original sets.  Either Chinese or Russian, take your choice.  

  

 What I am still trying to get a handle on is why the engine runs better with the Taylor wires and the NGK's.  I mean it DOES.  And logically, it should not.  Something going on there that I am still trying to figure out.  I'd be interested in anyone who has a handle on why that is.  

  

 Mark Bitterlich

 



--- On Fri, 8/7/09, Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca> wrote:



 [quote]

From: Walter Lannon <wlannon(at)persona.ca>

Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert

To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

Date: Friday, August 7, 2009, 11:44 PM



    On Chinese spark plugs.

  

 I just yesterday replaced a set of DZ5 plugs at a CJ6 annual inspection.  The reason for replacement was simply that they had 393 Hrs in service.  They  were showing some wear though still operating just fine but certifying for a further 100 Hrs. was a little problematic

  

 Champion could take some lessons from the Chinese

  

 Walt

  

  

 [quote] ---

dougsappllc(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:52 am Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

WHOA DOC!

Did not mean to push your button!



I only stated what seems obvious from the majority of your posts, and that

is you have had a lot of shit happen in your long

and colorfull aviation career.  I really did not think of that as

a negative and if my choice of words offends you I am truly sorry.

 I apologize.



With respect to the Chinese plugs "blowing out", I think your most recent

post confirms that they in fact did not not.  You simply mis spoke, or like

me used a poor choice of words to convey the thought.  All that said, to me

the issue of the centers blowing out is far more than a plug issue it is

a safety issue.  The loss of the ceramics on a set of Russian plugs has

already resulted in the deaths of two pilots, caused many thousands of

dollars of damage in a Pitts Mod 12, and burnt holes in several cowls

and baffling.  I am sure that there are for more instances than these which

I have not heard about.  To imply that the Chinese plugs suffer from the

same problem as the Russian plugs, is simply not true.



With respect to these posts damaging my plug sales.  If you had called me

and asked me about the auto plug mod (many guys have) the answer you will

get is that I too am going that direction as soon as my leads show the first

sign of starting to break down.  Would I change to auto plugs just for the

sake of changing?? No I would not.  I don't think it is cost effective as

long as the leads are OK.  But with our local shop time (at)$65.00 per hour

hour (yours is most likely more), trouble shooting and replacing a defective

leads simply does not make sense to me, it's simply auto plug time.

 Hopefully by that time we will have it all sorted out as to which plug to

use with which wire.



By the way I run auto plugs in my exp. cub already and think they are great

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: Automotive Plug Alert

Doug,  

We both owe each other apologies and I apologize for jumping the gun and misinterpreting your post.   

Yes, I think have both had our share of close calls with both civilian and military aircraft. I remember hearing of your close call with an apple orchard on final from an engine failure.   

We can sort the rest our over a beer sometime. I’ll buy the first round the next is on you.  

As for the plugs it was the ceramic insert that was cracked with the plugs breaking down under pressure on the tester. The center of the plug did not blow out.   

Ol Friend…we’ve flown long enough that we will have experienced a lot of shit happening.  It just adds to our character, clue bag, causes gray hair, and hair loss.  

NO I’m not pulling my Chinese plugs and wire harness out of my 52 until there is a real reason to do so.  

As stated before, I have been pleased with my NGK plugs and plug wire conversion in the 50. Even if I have had more RF from the conversion. Adding filters to the mags and the D/C converter has markedly decreased that noise. I know Mark, we’ve had this conversation too. At this point, I’m not going to reinstall the (Faraday’s cages) in the form of the wire mesh harness bundle. Just to big of a pain. I can live with the noise since I added the filters.  

Even if it has less spark with the spiral wrap plug wires and resitive plugs. It still starts with 1 tic of the blades and runs away from everyone else in the flight flying at the same power settings. So, I’m leaving well enough alone. To many other fish to fry. Besides I spend working on the plane, the less time there is for aviating.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of doug sapp

 Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 8:51 AM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

   

WHOA DOC!    

   

    

Did not mean to push your button!  

    

   

    

I only stated what seems obvious from the majority of your posts, and that is you have had a lot of shit happen in your long and colorfull aviation career.  I really did not think of that as a negative and if my choice of words offends you I am truly sorry.  I apologize.  

    

   

    

With respect to the Chinese plugs "blowing out", I think your most recent post confirms that they in fact did not not.  You simply mis spoke, or like me used a poor choice of words to convey the thought.  All that said, to me the issue of the centers blowing out is far more than a plug issue it is a safety issue.  The loss of the ceramics on a set of Russian plugs has already resulted in the deaths of two pilots, caused many thousands of dollars of damage in a Pitts Mod 12, and burnt holes in several cowls and baffling.  I am sure that there are for more instances than these which I have not heard about.  To imply that the Chinese plugs suffer from the same problem as the Russian plugs, is simply not true.   

    

   

    

With respect to these posts damaging my plug sales.  If you had called me and asked me about the auto plug mod (many guys have) the answer you will get is that I too am going that direction as soon as my leads show the first sign of starting to break down.  Would I change to auto plugs just for the sake of changing?? No I would not.  I don't think it is cost effective as long as the leads are OK.  But with our local shop time (at)$65.00 per hour hour (yours is most likely more), trouble shooting and replacing a defective leads simply does not make sense to me, it's simply auto plug time.  Hopefully by that time we will have it all sorted out as to which plug to use with which wire.    

    

   

    

By the way I run auto plugs in my exp. cub already and think they are great.  

    

   

    

Plugging along,  

    

Doug  

    

   

    

     

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:      

Doug,  

I resent and take it personal that you feel I seem to be special when it comes to shit happening. Yes one of the plugs I had trouble with blowing out was a Russian plug on the YAK 52. I replaced all the plugs with Chinese plugs after that approximately 3 years ago that came from you  via Dennis. I have been running those plugs since without an issue. When I was cleaning and testing all my plugs, re gapping them, and then putting them in the testor, I found one that was cracked and breaking down under load. The core did not blow out. No I did not drop the plug. The torque when I put them in a year ago was 25 ft/lbs. I replaced it with a new plug…from you as a matter of fact. I think if I search around in my junk box I can find that plug. I’ll send it to you if you like. No the plug did not blow out like the Ru plugs did. No I’m not out to kill you plug business. I personally think the Chinese plugs have performed well.  But with shit statements like this one I will certainly consider ripping my perfectly good new Ru harness out and replace the plugs with NGK’s if we are going to get into pissing contests about one cracked ceramic insert out of 18 in 3 years of fairly hard use in the 52.  

Now as the plugs relate to the 50 here is the story and I’m sticking to it.   

The 50 came through KS via  a Shackety IRAN. Yes I found two  plugs breaking down with cracked ceramic cores on them when they were put on the Testor. Since the wiring harness was old on that plane, I chose to replace the whole system with Dennis’ auto plug conversion kit. I have not been disappointed with the change. I have also not been disappointed with the Chinese plugs I have in the 52 3 years later.   

No Doug, I did not look to close at the hieroglyphics scribbled on the sides of those plugs but it certainly did not look Cyrilic but I’m not a linguist.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of doug sapp

 Sent: Friday, August 07, 2009 10:28 AM      



 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

  

      

   

Doc,    

You seem to be real "special" when it comes to shit happening!    

    

   

    

I'll keep this brief and do encourage the listers and lurkers to respond on the subject.--- In over 20 years of using and selling Chinese spark plugs I have NEVER, repeat NEVER seen or heard of a Chinese DZ5 plugs blow out the centers.  Are you 100% sure that you are not confusing them with the Russian plugs which unfortunately do have a reputation for blowing out the ceramics??  All that said, if ANY plug, of any mfg has been dropped all bets are off and it should be treated as very suspect and IMHO should not be used.  

    

   

    

I personally have not seen the need to do the auto plug mod yet, but when it comes time to start replacing leads I too will do the auto plug mod, but at this time my ignition harness seems to be good.  It would seem to me that if all you guys who are running the auto plug conversion would report in as to which wire and which plug you are running (and if you have seen any problems) the correct combination of plug type and wire type would soon be obvious.    

    

   

    

Doug    

On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Roger Kemp M.D. <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> wrote:      

Craig,  

I have had the same problem with Ru and Chinese plugs in the 52 with its’ M-14. It was a bad capacitor in the Mag Coil. Replacing the coil solved the problem. It occurs 20 min into the flight with an abrupt Kaahoop and the blade stops a tick due to the misfire. You can almost set your clock to the heart stopping misfire. I think you fixed your problem by swapping out your mags with the bad coil. You hit the nail on the head with your thoughts about over heating the coils but I seriously doubt it was the plugs that did that. I have the NGK plugs in my 50  without the problem to date. I have had the problem in the 50 also with a bad coil causing a discharge with the ensuing misfire. That occurred with the existing Chinese plugs not the new NGK’s. I changed the wires and plugs a little later when I blew out a couple the Chinese plugs (the ceramic core cracked and the plugs broke down). So I changed the plugs to the NGK’s and did the plug wire conversion. That led to a different problem with RF interference. That is another story for another setting.  

Doc  

     

From: owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com) [mailto:owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-yak-list-server(at)matronics.com)] On Behalf Of Yak Pilot

 Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 4:56 PM

 To: yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)

 Subject: Re: Automotive Plug Alert  

  

              

Can you please explain how you arrived at this conclusion Craig?  I   understand about the problem.  I understand that you were comparing   resistive to non-resistive plugs.  Using the term: "YOU MUST USE   RESISTIVE PLUGS" is pretty strong.  I'll talk to you about it off   line.  Rog?     

      

    

      

Later,    

      

    

      

Mark Bitterlich   

      



   

   --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)> wrote:   

    	  Quote: 	
		     



   From: Craig Payne <cpayne(at)joimail.com (cpayne(at)joimail.com)>

   Subject: Automotive Plug Alert

   To: "yak-list" <yak-list(at)matronics.com (yak-list(at)matronics.com)>

   Date: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 2:07 PM            

When using automotive plugs in either the Huosai or M-14 type engines, you   MUST use the resistor type plugs as the non-resistive type may conduct an   excess amount of current, overheating the magneto coils, leading to rough mag   operation.   

      

    

      

While discussing teething problems in the latest modified M-14P engine   with a fellow RedStar, I realized that I had encountered the same problem 3   years ago but never quite made the connection to overheating of the coils. My   situtation caused me to assume bad mags. After working my way through the   pile of mags I have, I lost track of my troubleshooting thread and switched   spark plugs to the NGK BRxHS motorcycle plug and my problems went away. While   I wasn't sure what caused the problem to go away, I shelved the mags and haven't   changed much since.   

      

    

      

My problem showed up after 10-20 minutes of operation but in another   airplane the problem occurred just about 50 minutes into the flight.   Currently I have moved from the #6 plug to the hotter #5 plug to better match   the way I operate at the Cruise II setting. For higher power settings, I   would go back to the BR6HS.   

      

    

      

Now I'll go back through the pile of mags and test a bit when I get   the chance.   

      

    

      

Craig Payne   

      

cpayne(at)joimail.com   

      

    

      

    

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 Always Yakin,

 Doug Sapp

 Phone 509-826-4610

 Fax 509-826-3644  

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 Always Yakin,

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 Phone 509-826-4610

 Fax 509-826-3644  

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