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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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 Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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> That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips ! The stock
wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the
design of the plane.
I took the liberty to change the subject line to something similar to what
is being discussed.
This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with wingtips that,
"are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of
the plane."
How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction?
I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably would
disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself. In fact, doesn't
surprise me at all, but I would like an explanation on why Homer Kolb's
wingtip is so very poor.
How is this new wingtip going to improve the flying qualities of Kolb
aircraft?
john h
mkIII
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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John, Despite the fact that this will surely cause much heat but little light, the truth of the matter is that we can never really know. Kolb wings may have the same basic design but each one is "customized" to a greater ot lesser degree. There were pictures on here a few years ago of one set of "improvements" that added 20lb.
The guy who built my wings was of the ilk that believed if you can see any of the fabric weave you haven't shot enough Aerothane. I estimate my aircraft is 100lb. overweight because of this (including the tail).
I'm sure there are wings that are built absolutely plans stock and have the lightest cover job possible.
How would you go about telling anything about the aircraft performance of the three aircraft and isolate the wing tip as contributing what? You can't.
If you could build one set of wings and put on changeable wing tips, tuft and oil test each one, instrument the aircraft with lab grade calibrated units, have ten different pilots fly the same test program and document the results maybe you'd be able to make a few deductions. Would they be applicable to the next guy who just has to make his "improvements"? Who knows? For my money, I'll either recover my wings and tail and try to get performance that way, or build the wings I've been toying with and see how that goes. If I do the former, I'll have a near stock Kolb Mk III, if I do the latter, I'll have something completely different.
Will it help anyone else? Who knows?
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 5:25 PM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "John Hauck" <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)>
> That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips ! The stock wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of the plane.
I took the liberty to change the subject line to something similar to what is being discussed.
This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with wingtips that, "are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in the design of the plane."
How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction?
I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably would disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself. In fact, doesn't surprise me at all, but I would like an explanation on why Homer Kolb's wingtip is so very poor.
How is this new wingtip going to improve the flying qualities of Kolb aircraft?
john h
mkIII
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips |
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Dear John H,
As much as I would like to take credit for the wingtip idea, I did not seriously consider changing wingtips until Kolb came up with the new design on their MK III Xtra. The minute I saw them, I knew it would be a huge improvement. Your flight test reports confirmed it, the stall speeds with the new wingtips were much reduced compared to my otherwise nearly identical MK III Xtra were before I added VG's. Your cruise speeds was also higher with the same engine, airframe and prop. Once I saw Kolb do this, I decided to add better wingtips, it was just a matter of what they would be. I decided on the Hoerner for simplicity, no fiberglass, and a great record of performance.
The type wingtips on the Kolb now are horrible aerodynamically, exactly why is way beyond what I can cover here, but the information is available all over the Internet if you research it. The fact that no major aircraft design for the last 50 years ( Except for a few specialty aircraft and Antique Copies ) has used the Kolb wingtip design should be your first clue. The current Kolb design wingtps are not used in any meaningful way because they have horrible performance and characteristics. Kolb, Myself, and more than a few builders here have decided to use a better performing type wingtip. My wingtip will use a lot of what Kolb has done with thier factory MK III Xtra, extend the spar by 2 feet, and my wingtip will be a hoerner wingtip instead of the fiberglass one. Horner wingtips are used on a huge number of General aviation airplanes with great success, the information on their performance has been well documented on countless airplanes for over 50 years.
As I said before, EVERY major airplane in history has undergone design changes, why should the Kolbs be any different ? You have many improvements in your Kolb, that is not a slap in the face to Homer Kolb, it is progress, and I think Homer approved of them. The 737, the most popular airliner in history now has new wingtips, do you think the original design team from the early 1960's needs to " Defend " themselves ? I bet those now very old guys take a lot of pride in the fact that the 737 has been in production for over 40 years, and I doubt they are in any way offended by the new wingtips the 737 now has standard. Yet you imply that Homer would be offended because some have found a way to improve his airplane, I think you are just wrong about this. I think Homer would be very happy to see his airplane continue to be improved, so that his design can be compete in the marketplace and be produced for a long time to come. There are a lot of new and really good aircraft designs out there, Kolb needs to continue to develop and improve to keep this design competitive.
As always I am not telling you that you should change your airplane in any way, so no need to even go there. But what I am saying is that myself and others can have nicer flying Kolbs with properly designed and better performing wingtips.
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:50 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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> As always I am not telling you that you should change your airplane in
any way, so no need to even go there. But what I am saying is that myself
and others have nicer flying Kolbs with properly designed and better
performing wingtips.
Mike:
Now I am jealous, "myself and others have nicer flying Kolbs with properly
designed and better performing wingtips."
That statement would be much more believeable if you had done the
modifications and could present your results to the List. 
john h
mkIII
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:07 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips |
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| aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote: |
John, Despite the fact that this will surely cause much heat but little light, the truth of the matter is that we can never really know.
How would you go about telling anything about the aircraft performance of the three aircraft and isolate the wing tip as contributing what? You can't
Rick Girard
|
Rick Girard,
In the first line of your post, you start by doing your best to imply to readers that no good information will come of this wingtip discussion... " much heat and little light "... Why are you afraid of a little factual discussion about wingtips ??? The fact that you start out by trying to distract people away from intelligent discussion on this subject tells me that you have no interest in helping anyone here improve their Kolbs.
Your next statements are just plain wrong. There has been much research done on wingtips and what they will do for airplanes of different classes. Many aircraft designers design airplanes with efficient wingtips with good aerodynamic characteristics on GA, LSA, and many airplanes in our class airplanes because it is already known what advantages certain wingtip designs offer. Contrary to your assertions, we do know what many wingtip designs have to offer and what improvements we can expect from them, it is accepted aerodynamic theory for more than 50 years now. Its to bad that you feel the need to try to mislead people, dismiss accepted aerodynamic theory, and prevent a discussion that could help them improve their Kolbs.
The fact that you don't know much about wingtips is fine with me, thats why many people read this forum, to learn about Kolbs. Not everyone can knowledgeable about airplanes and aerodynamics and I do not expect it. What I do take offense to is when people like you post information that is just plain wrong and is a disservice to people here on the list. There is a lot to be learned by discussing Kolbs wingtips, and improvements that can be done. The Kolb factory, myself, and other builders saw fit to go to the effort to make our wingtips better.... Why are you doing your best to mislead people and prevent this discussion ?
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:16 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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Old aviation rule of thumb: everything you do to change the plane
will add 5 knots. Put it on, add 5
take it back off, add 5 more. Can't lose. 
BB
On 24, Aug 2009, at 6:25 PM, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: |
> That is a really great Modification you did to the wingtips !
The stock wingtips are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got
really wrong in the design of the plane.
>
> Mike
I took the liberty to change the subject line to something similar
to what is being discussed.
This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with
wingtips that, "are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got
really wrong in the design of the plane."
How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction?
I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably
would disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself.
In fact, doesn't surprise me at all, but I would like an
explanation on why Homer Kolb's wingtip is so very poor.
How is this new wingtip going to improve the flying qualities of
Kolb aircraft?
john h
mkIII
|
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List |
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herbgh(at)nctc.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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Gotta think that the 4 extra feet of wing helped a bunch.. My
other notion is that the drooped tip would not be any better than a
Whitman or Hoerner tip.. on the factory MkIIIX The idea in any
case is to reduce tip vortices ...and therefore ,Drag.. Herb
At 07:29 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: |
Dear John H,
As much as I would like to take credit for the wingtip idea, I did
not seriously consider changing wingtips until Kolb came up with the
new design on their MK III Xtra. The minute I saw them, I knew it
would be a huge improvement. Your flight test reports confirmed it,
the stall speeds with the new wingtips were much reduced compared to
my otherwise nearly identical MK III Xtra were before I added
VG's. Your cruise speeds was also higher with the same engine,
airframe and prop. Once I saw Kolb do this, I decided to add better
wingtips, it was just a matter of what they would be. I decided on
the Hoerner for simplicity, no fiberglass, and a great record of performance.
The type wingtips on the Kolb now are horrible aerodynamically,
exactly why is way beyond what I can cover here, but the information
is available all over the Internet if you research it. The fact
that no major aircraft design for the last 50 years ( Except for a
few specialty aircraft and Antique Copies ) has used the Kolb
wingtip design should be your first clue. The current Kolb design
wingtps are not used in any meaningful way because they have
horrible performance and characteristics. Kolb, Myself, and more
than a few builders here have decided to use a better performing
type wingtip. My wingtip will use a lot of what Kolb has done with
thier factory MK III Xtra, extend the spar by 2 feet, and my wingtip
will be a hoerner wingtip instead of the fiberglass one. Horner
wingtips are used on a huge number of General aviation airplanes
with great success, the information on their performance has been
well documented on countless airplanes for over 50 years.
As I said before, EVERY major airplane in history has undergone
design changes, why should the Kolbs be any different ? You have
many improvements in your Kolb, that is not a slap in the face to
Homer Kolb, it is progress, and I think Homer approved of them. The
737, the most popular airliner in history now has new wingtips, do
you think the original design team from the early 1960's needs to "
Defend " themselves ? I bet those now very old guys take a lot of
pride in the fact that the 737 has been in production for over 40
years, and I doubt they are in any way offended by the new wingtips
the 737 now has standard. Yet you imply that Homer would be
offended because some have found a way to improve his airplane, I
think you are just wrong about this. I think Homer would be very
happy to see his airplane continue to be improved, so that his
design can be compete in the marketplace and be produced for a long
time to come. There are a lot of new and really good aircraf!
t designs out there, Kolb needs to continue to develop and improve
to keep this design competitive.
As always I am not telling you that you should change your airplane
in any way, so no need to even go there. But what I am saying is
that myself and others have nicer flying Kolbs with properly
designed and better performing wingtips.
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as
you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 59390#259390
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
08/24/09 06:05:00
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planecrazzzy
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:38 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips |
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JP-KMA
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jlsk1(at)frontiernet.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:46 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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Rick Girard,
| Quote: |
In the first line of your post, you start by doing your best to imply to
readers that no good information will come of this wingtip discussion...
" much heat and little light "... Why are you afraid of a little factual
discussion about wingtips ???
|
Mr. Jetpilot, Where are these "Facts" that support your statement that the
Plans built Kolb wingtips are inferior??
Jim Kmet
Cookeville, TN
MK-3C
(Never Piloted a Jet)
---
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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Mike, Your response, typically, is the heat I spoke of. You missed the point entirely and started your usual ad hominem attack. Time for Mr. Delete Key.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 8:07 PM, JetPilot <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)> wrote:
[quote] --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>
aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> John, Despite the fact that this will surely cause much heat but little light, the truth of the matter is that we can never really know.
>
> How would you go about telling anything about the aircraft performance of the three aircraft and isolate the wing tip as contributing what? You can't
>
> Rick Girard
>
>
Rick Girard,
In the first line of your post, you start by doing your best to imply to readers that no good information will come of this wingtip discussion... " much heat and little light "... Why are you afraid of a little factual discussion about wingtips ??? The fact that you start out by trying to distract people away from intelligent discussion on this subject tells me that you have no interest in helping anyone here improve their Kolbs.
Your next statements are just plain wrong. There has been much research done on wingtips and what they will do for airplanes of different classes. Many aircraft designers design airplanes with efficient wingtips with good aerodynamic characteristics on GA, LSA, and many airplanes in our class airplanes because it is already known what advantages certain wingtip designs offer. Contrary to your assertions, we do know what many wingtip designs have to offer and what improvements we can expect from them. Its to bad that you feel the need to try to mislead people, dismiss accepted aerodynamic theory, and prevent a discussion that could help them improve their Kolbs.
The fact that you don't know much about wingtips is fine with me, thats why many people read this forum, to learn about Kolbs. Not everyone can knowledgeable about airplanes and aerodynamics and I do not expect it. What I do take offense to is when people like you post information that is just plain wrong and is a disservice to people here on the list. There is a lot to be learned by discussing Kolbs wingtips, and improvements the Kolb factory, and others are doing to make them better.... Why are you doing your best to mislead people and prevent this discussion ?
Mike
--------
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=259394#259394
===========
arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
===========
http://forums.matronics.com
===========
le, List Admin.
="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
===========
[b]
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:24 pm Post subject: Re: Wingtips |
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Wingtips and induced drag in low altitude, light aircraft.
http://www.freewebtown.com/salil/Drag/Page8.html
Based on this, when I rebuild Ed's FSII, I think I will go with whatever is structurally easiest, lightest, and uses whatever we have on hand.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:38 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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> Wingtips and induced drag in low altitude, light aircraft.
Richard P:
Enjoyed reading the referenced page.
I mentioned Homer's wing stalling at the root first, in a msg to the List
the other day. Didn't provoke any response, yea or nay.
This is a good illustration of progression of different style wings.
Homer's wing would be wing B. This is the reason we have such gentle stall
characteristics, if we don't screw with Homer's design. Also why we can
still maintain roll control right through the stall, because the ailerons
are still working.
john h
mkIII
"The other problem with elliptical wings is the stall characteristics. It is
much safer to design an airplane so that the wing stalls first at the root,
leaving the outer portion of the wing, (where the ailerons are) still
flying. An elliptical wing however, will tend to stall uniformly all along
the span (see the diagram below.) The "fix" for this situation is washout,
but that will reduce the theoretical gains in induced drag. Therefore, we
are unlikely to see a great resurgence in the use of elliptical wings,
except in situations where appearance dictates."
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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The other problem with elliptical wings is the stall characteristics. It is
much safer to design an airplane so that the wing stalls first at the root,
leaving the outer portion of the wing, (where the ailerons are) still
flying. An elliptical wing however, will tend to stall uniformly all along
the span (see the diagram below.) The "fix" for this situation is washout,
but that will reduce the theoretical gains in induced drag. Therefore, we
are unlikely to see a great resurgence in the use of elliptical wings,
except in situations where appearance dictates.
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:44 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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The illustration is in the attached file.
I didn't notice it when the msg came through first time.
john h
mkIII
---
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John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:05 pm Post subject: Wingtips |
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Ya all.
Nope, Homer did not get anything "wrong" with the wing tips on his
designs.
His objective was not to have the absolute best, most efficient wing
tip possible, but to have a good one that was quite simple and easy
for amateur home builders to get built right and still give excellent
performance. The addition of preformed factory furnished wing tips to
his kits would have added significantly to the cost of his kits.
Homer wanted to be as frugal with our money, as he was with his own,
and he succeeded in giving us a GREAT bank for the buck.
Thank you Homer ,,,,,,,, may you rest in peace.
Gene Z
PS
Do I encourage new builders to modify kolb's wing tip to the hoerner
style? Nope, I DO NOT. It is more difficult to get it right than
it looks.
On Aug 24, 2009, at 6:25 PM, John Hauck wrote:
| Quote: | This comes to a surprise to me that I have been flying with wingtips
that, "are very poor, one of the few things Kolb got really wrong in
the design of the plane."
How did jet pilot come up with this brilliant deduction?
I don't take offense to your statement, but Homer Kolb probably
would disagree with you if he were still here to defend himself. In
fact, doesn't surprise me at all, but I would like an explanation on
why Homer Kolb's wingtip is so very poor.
|
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mdnanwelch7(at)hotmail.co
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 2:54 am Post subject: Wingtips |
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>> I mentioned Homer's wing stalling at the root first C in a msg to the List
| Quote: | the other day. Didn't provoke any response C yea or nay.
john h
mkIII
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John H. C
I beg to differ with you regarding the above statement. I politely asked you to explain that premise C since I hadn't heard of it before. I received a response from you C to which I accepted.
Evidently polite discourse doesn't get noticed. Too bad.
Mike Welch
MkIII
Windows Live: Make it easier for your friends to see what you’re up to on Facebook. Find out more. [quote][b]
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williamtsullivan(at)att.n
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:53 am Post subject: Wingtips |
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John- I read the article referenced by Richard Pike, and found that it answered a lot of the questions that have come up. I live one mile from Bradley International, and right in line with the E/W runway. I wondered about all the wingtip mods on the jets, and why it would pay to install them. The article answered all questions. Anyone participating in the discussion would be well advised to read the whole thing.
do not archive
Bill Sullivan
Windsor Locks, Ct.
[quote][b]
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John Hauck
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:58 am Post subject: Wingtips |
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Mike W:
My appologies for my very poor memory.
Thanks for reminding me.
I hope I have no offended you.
Evidently it did get noticed or I would not have responded to you.
My mistake was not intentional.
john h
mkIII - Working on my first cup of coffee.
John H.,
I beg to differ with you regarding the above statement. I politely asked you to explain that premise, since I hadn't heard of it before. I received a response from you, to which I accepted.
Evidently polite discourse doesn't get noticed. Too bad.
Mike Welch
MkIII
[quote][b]
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_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama |
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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:47 am Post subject: Wingtips |
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John, Regardless of any purported aerodynamic short comings, IMHO the real genius of Homer's wingtip is that it is very easy to build and duplicate side to side and it provides a great anchoring point for the covering. Simple, cheap and light.
Rick Girard
do not archive
On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 7:47 AM, John Hauck <jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com (jhauck(at)elmore.rr.com)> wrote:
[quote]
Mike W:
My appologies for my very poor memory.
Thanks for reminding me.
I hope I have no offended you.
Evidently it did get noticed or I would not have responded to you.
My mistake was not intentional.
john h
mkIII - Working on my first cup of coffee.
John H.,
I beg to differ with you regarding the above statement. I politely asked you to explain that premise, since I hadn't heard of it before. I received a response from you, to which I accepted.
Evidently polite discourse doesn't get noticed. Too bad.
Mike Welch
MkIII
| Quote: |
get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List
tp://forums.matronics.com
_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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[b]
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etzimm(at)gmail.com
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: Wingtips |
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Rick,
Very true and well said.
Gene Z
On Aug 25, 2009, at 9:13 AM, Richard Girard wrote:
| Quote: | John, Regardless of any purported aerodynamic short comings, IMHO
the real genius of Homer's wingtip is that it is very easy to build
and duplicate side to side and it provides a great anchoring point
for the covering. Simple, cheap and light.
Rick Girard
do not archive
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