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RV-10 Article

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AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:20 pm Post subject: RV-10 Article

Thanks Dave for setting Mr. Hirschman straight.  I know that Stein and Rob Hickman both felt Steven Raddatz Production aircraft for immediate resale were, in their words -beautiful.  Others will follow in his footsteps to fill the "Peeler Need".  I have seen far prettier and more valued features in OBAM projects actually built by the pilots.  So much so that I am going to take my critical attitude to the EAA for consideration as a 2010 AirVenture Judge.  Many of you amatuer builders deserve some well earned accolades....Nicely Done!  Let's shout it to those wanting RV-10s.  Kit #984 is on the floor at Van's.

  

 The Peeler paperwork did not acknowledge Mr. Raddatz's contribution nor his many other repeditive financial successes while so slowly learning.. Oh yah, it was for remedial education and continueing financial enjoyment.  It did credit the check Dr Peeler and his commercial pilot wife wrote, leaving a distinct siren's call for future purchasers to look to Pro Built RV-10s against the sea of stouter built C-182s and faster SR-22s certified birds at dealers.  Maybe that is what the RV-10 policyholders now want?

  

 As Dave Hirschman  stated, (as a buyer but not yet a builder) he was well familiar with the issues and knew what he was writing.  He knows the FAA accepted Dr. Peeler as the builder and he published the passage that Peeler knew what his Airworthiness certification statement meant...  Peeler goes on to say he had it professionally produced for him.

  

 Anyone have that Granite rewritten language on 51% built aircraft available so the rest of us get to use it finding the next Peeler?

  

  



  John Cox



 

  From: Dave Saylor

Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 11:10 AM

To: Hirschman, Dave

Subject: RV10-List: Re: RV-10 Article

 Dave,



I copied my last reply to you to a bunch of RV-10 types on Matronics.  You said the builder passed away, and implied that the plane was amateur built...now I'm hearing that it was Steve Raddatz.  Yes, he is deceased, but he was also a professional builder who it seems did not share your concern about abuse of the AB category.  So I stand by my original statement and I think I'll shut up for a while before I make myself a bigger fool.



Dave Saylor



 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Hirschman, Dave <Dave.Hirschman(at)aopa.org (Dave.Hirschman(at)aopa.org)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    Dear Dave Saylor,

 I share your concerns about abuse of the Experimental category, and your point about explicitly spelling out the ownership trail in this case is well taken.

 Also, I like your idea about a "second owner" article, too. As a buyer (but not yet a builder) of Experimental aircraft over the years, it's a subject I'm personally very interested in . . . 

 Best,

  

 Dave Hirschman

  



    From: Dave Saylor [mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)] 



Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:50 PM

To: Hirschman, Dave

Cc: rv10-list(at)matronics.com (rv10-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: RV-10 Article

  

  

Thank you, Dave.  That's a reasonable and completely acceptable explanation.  FWIW, there are a lot of people who are concerned about people intending to get around the rules, and this looked for all the world like one of those cases.  A line or two to set things straight might have been interesting and informative to your audience.  How about an article specifically addressing "second owner" ins and outs?



Thanks again,



Dave Saylor



 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Hirschman, Dave <Dave.Hirschman(at)aopa.org (Dave.Hirschman(at)aopa.org)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		    Dear David Saylor,

  

 Thanks very much for your e-mail and sharing your concerns about this airplane.

 I can assure you that David Peeler doesn't have the repairman's certificate on this airplane. He bought it from the builder (who is now deceased).

 The point of the RV-10 story was to highlight the tremendous utility and capability of some Experimental category aircraft, even for non-builders like David and Amy Peeler. My parents built a VariEze, and I'm an RV-3 owner, so I'm a big fan of the Experimental category . . . 

 Warm Regards,

  

 Dave Hirschman



   From: Dave Saylor [mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)] 

Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:41 PM

To: Hirschman, Dave

Subject: Fwd: RV-10 Article

  

  

 Dear Mr. Hirschman,



I'm a 24-year AOPA member and an RV-10 builder/owner.  I own and operate a builder assistance center for amateur built aircraft, and I served on the FAA's recent committee to review what is commonly known as the 51% rule.



I think you did a disservice to RV-10 builders specifically and all amateur builders in general by printing certain quotes from David Peeler.  Without any valid explanation of the rule, you left the impression that Dr. Peeler had someone build his plane.  Yet, a quick check of the registration database clearly lists him as the manufacturer, but he claims he doesn't "pretend to be" the builder...something's fishy.



There's nothing wrong with selling a plane that you built, as long as your intentions were correct.  And there's nothing wrong with hiring out certain parts of the project.  But in this case there's clearly more to the story, and not knowing what it is or how it was addressed leaves a black mark.



I hope you can clear up the discrepancy.  I'm not the only one who noticed.



Sincerely,

 



Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

	




	


-- 

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

[quote]



get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

p://forums.matronics.com/

blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution



[b]

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:22 am Post subject: RV-10 Article

I don't know when or if some feds will decide to crack the whip. All I

can say is there are some folks sitting in jail for failure to

disclose medical handicaps to the FAA for which other govt agencies

were paying compensation. There was a "mechanic" in Casa Grande

signing off repair work as an A&P who will spend some years in jail,

while his victims have to have work redone/reinspected. Of course some

of his "customers" might have suspected what he was doing. I have to

believe some feds read the AOPA mag. I sure wouldn't want to throw

such a red flag in front of a bull like the Peelers did.

Do Not Archive



On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 12:19 AM, John Cox<johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   The Peeler paperwork did not acknowledge Mr. Raddatz's contribution nor his

 many other repeditive financial successes while so slowly learning.. =



 As Dave Hirschman  stated, (as a buyer but not yet a builder) he was well

 familiar with the issues and knew what he was writing.  He knows the FAA

 accepted Dr. Peeler as the builder and he published the passage that Peeler

 knew what his Airworthiness certification statement meant...  Peeler goes on

 to say he had it professionally produced for him.



 Anyone have that Granite rewritten language on 51% built aircraft available

 so the rest of us get to use it finding the next Peeler?

 John Cox

 ________________________________

 From: Dave Saylor

 Sent: Thu 8/27/2009 11:10 AM

 To: Hirschman, Dave

 Subject: Re: RV-10 Article



 Dave,



 I copied my last reply to you to a bunch of RV-10 types on Matronics.  You

 said the builder passed away, and implied that the plane was amateur

 built...now I'm hearing that it was Steve Raddatz.  Yes, he is deceased, but

 he was also a professional builder who it seems did not share your concern

 about abuse of the AB category.  So I stand by my original statement and I

 think I'll shut up for a while before I make myself a bigger fool.



 Dave Saylor



 On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Hirschman, Dave <Dave.Hirschman(at)aopa.org>

 wrote:

>

> Dear Dave Saylor,

> I share your concerns about abuse of the Experimental category, and your

> point about explicitly spelling out the ownership trail in this case is well

> taken.

> Also, I like your idea about a "second owner" article, too. As a buyer

> (but not yet a builder) of Experimental aircraft over the years, it's a

> subject I'm personally very interested in . . .

> Best,

>

> Dave Hirschman

>

> ________________________________

> From: Dave Saylor [mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com]

> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:50 PM

> To: Hirschman, Dave

> Cc: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

> Subject: Re: RV-10 Article

>

> Thank you, Dave.  That's a reasonable and completely acceptable

> explanation.  FWIW, there are a lot of people who are concerned about people

> intending to get around the rules, and this looked for all the world like

> one of those cases.  A line or two to set things straight might have been

> interesting and informative to your audience.  How about an article

> specifically addressing "second owner" ins and outs?

>

> Thanks again,

>

> Dave Saylor

>

> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Hirschman, Dave <Dave.Hirschman(at)aopa.org>

> wrote:

>>

>> Dear David Saylor,

>>

>> Thanks very much for your e-mail and sharing your concerns about this

>> airplane.

>> I can assure you that David Peeler doesn't have the repairman's

>> certificate on this airplane. He bought it from the builder (who is now

>> deceased).

>> The point of the RV-10 story was to highlight the tremendous utility and

>> capability of some Experimental category aircraft, even for non-builders

>> like David and Amy Peeler. My parents built a VariEze, and I'm an RV-3

>> owner, so I'm a big fan of the Experimental category . . .

>> Warm Regards,

>>

>> Dave Hirschman

>> ________________________________

>> From: Dave Saylor [mailto:dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com]

>> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:41 PM

>> To: Hirschman, Dave

>> Subject: Fwd: RV-10 Article

>>

>> Dear Mr. Hirschman,

>>

>> I'm a 24-year AOPA member and an RV-10 builder/owner.  I own and operate

>> a builder assistance center for amateur built aircraft, and I served on the

>> FAA's recent committee to review what is commonly known as the 51% rule.

>>

>> I think you did a disservice to RV-10 builders specifically and all

>> amateur builders in general by printing certain quotes from David Peeler.

>> Without any valid explanation of the rule, you left the impression that Dr.

>> Peeler had someone build his plane.  Yet, a quick check of the registration

>> database clearly lists him as the manufacturer, but he claims he doesn't

>> "pretend to be" the builder...something's fishy.

>>

>> There's nothing wrong with selling a plane that you built, as long as

>> your intentions were correct.  And there's nothing wrong with hiring out

>> certain parts of the project.  But in this case there's clearly more to the

>> story, and not knowing what it is or how it was addressed leaves a black

>> mark.

>>

>> I hope you can clear up the discrepancy.  I'm not the only one who

>> noticed.

>>

>> Sincerely,

>>

>> Dave Saylor

>> AirCrafters LLC

>> 140 Aviation Way

>> Watsonville, CA 95076

>> 831-722-9141 Shop

>> 831-750-0284 Cell

 --

 Dave Saylor

 AirCrafters LLC

 140 Aviation Way

 Watsonville, CA 95076

 831-722-9141 Shop

 831-750-0284 Cell

 get=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 p://forums.matronics.com/

 blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: RV-10 Article

Like many Pro Builders, the mantra goes like this - "My PAI (at my local FSDO,) said what I was doing was okay and compliant with the ole 51% interpretation. They have even visited my production (learning center) operations. My customer(s) is(are) just buying my last learning project".  The Pro builder nets 51% of the check and the owner/certificate holder certifies they did 51% of the tasks. VANS, Aerosport, Stein, Grand Rapids, AFS or whatever get the component sales - isn't everyone happy now.  Writing that large of a check is a big task - hence why I am moving so slowly on the amateur build.



Now you get a beautiful AOPA article, to which Dave Hirschman encourages the next guy to just go to the next pro builder to buy the next Acme Pro Built RV-10. It's just our Free Market and a FAST alterative to the following of the intent and ethic of the regs.  Makes one want to start as a Pro Builder.  If this was our EAA magazine, I might be going berserk.  Oh yeh, its AOPA - for owners & pilots.  Mr. Saylor, thanks for trying at least on the EAA/FAA committee.



It's not a red flag, it's a bright Green glowing Light.  Shall we just take a breath and welcome them to Copperstate?  Maybe they will be at Independence (7S5), Oregon tomorrow for the annual Vans Picnic.



John



--

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:25 pm Post subject: RV-10 Article

John,

For the benefit of others that may not be as clear on the issues with

the FAA.....IMHO, if Steve had financed and built the aircraft like

any amateur, finished it, registered it with him as builder, then he

would legally be free to sell that aircraft.  In my mind the two

cardinal sins are the Peelers paying Steve to do the build as it is

put together, and then swearing on an FAA form that they, not Steve,

actually built the aircraft. It is about lying to the FAA. If you or I

choose to become multiple offenders, cranking out an RV-10 every year

to educate ourselves on the minor changes that Vans makes from time to

time and how to incorporate the latest gizmos and glass panels, and

then, after finishing and registering the aircraft choose to sell it

to finance the next project....more power to us.



On Fri, Aug 28, 2009 at 8:12 AM, John Cox<johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   It's not a red flag, it's a bright Green glowing Light.  Shall we just take a breath and welcome them to Copperstate?  Maybe they will be at Independence (7S5), Oregon tomorrow for the annual Vans Picnic.



 John

- The Matronics RV10-List Email Forum -

Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:

http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

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