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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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 Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: Tales from the dark OOPS I mean door side.... |
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Hi
Over the past few weeks I have been working on my canopy and doors.
I have experienced a wide range of emotions when dealing with the doors – mostly frustration! The doors seemed to be designed to test the will to build and our ability to persevere.
As part of the process I have studied the usual websites to see what others have done and trolled the archives for any hints and tips that might be useful. Here are some of the things that I did (or wish I had done the first time through) to get to doors that actually work.
When reading this, note that I used the Rivethead door blocks and the McMaster Carr door seals which mount on the canopy opening and not on the door. I also installed Steve DeNieri’s flush handles and locks.
What I did
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Trimmed the door halves oversize prior to bonding. The index holes didn’t match so bonding alignment was a concern. So was having enough material to allow clamping to the canopy while curing.
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>When bonding the door halves I followed the plans to a T. It turns out that most of the door edges get removed so it is important to have lots close in to the inside edge of the flanges. I ended up with several areas of delamination. I found that it was possible to inject epoxy into delaminated areas using a large bore hypo. The entire bottom edge of one door delaminated which strangely enough made repair easier.
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>The rear index holes didn’t match so door alignment relative to the door sill was a problem. It was possible that the inner door half could sit too low in the openings and not have reasonable clearance from the sills. Without correction, this might result in the doors sitting on the bottom of the door sill. To ensure consistent spacing between the door and the door sill, I taped stacks of popsicle sticks (3 in each) onto the bottom of the door sill. The inner door sat on these during the bonding process.
<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>The popsicle stick spacers also remained in place when during the initial door trim especially on the door top. I didn’t want to inadvertently trim the door to short buy taking too much off the top. The doors were left a little long until the hinges were installed.
<![if !supportLists]>5. <![endif]>The initial fit objective was to get the doors flush in the opening with only a tiny gap all the way round.
<![if !supportLists]>6. <![endif]>The Rivethead door blocks were installed on the canopy fibreglass door posts
<![if !supportLists]>7. <![endif]>After the hinges and door blocks were installed considerable time was spent getting the doors pins open / close easily. After door seals were installed, I got to do this all over again.
<![if !supportLists]>8. <![endif]>Using washers as shims between the hinge and the canopy can change the gap between the canopy door post and the door. I used washers on an aft door hinges to slightly raise the height of the aft side of the door which in turn increased the forward gap between the door post and the door.
<![if !supportLists]>9. <![endif]>During latching the doors move fore / aft depending on which door pin contacts the door first and which has more friction. This in turn moves the door in the frame and changes the fore / aft gaps between the door and he canopy. A shim in the door opening between the canopy and the door prevents this shift during fitting. Uncorrected, this was going to be a problem.
<![if !supportLists]>10. <![endif]>The door seals caused the bottom of the doors to be pushed out which in turn resulted in the considerable pressure being required (on the outside of the door) to close the door enough for the door pins to engage.
<![if !supportLists]>11. <![endif]>I found the once the door seals were more than ½ compressed, the resistive force on the doors increased significantly. By removing more material from the outside of the canopy opening, I was able to reduce the seal compression and get an easier to close door. This was especially true of the canopy door posts.
<![if !supportLists]>12. <![endif]>What made a *huge* difference in getting the doors to close easily was pushing the canopy door sill inboard by about 1/8” This moved the seal that contacts the bottom of the door inboard and took most of outward pressure off the bottom of the door.
<![if !supportLists]>13. <![endif]>I floxed the nylon guide blocks on the fire/aft edges of the doors so that they were flush with the inner door perimeter. Consequently they interfered with the previously installed Rivethead door blocks. To correct, the canopy door posts were notched to allow the Rivethead blocks to mount directly on the aluminum door posts and thereby provide clearance for the door. I shimmed the Rivethead blocks so that there was minimal clearance between the doors and the blocks. This ensures that the doors remain correctly aligned within the door opening. See #9.
<![if !supportLists]>14. <![endif]>Once the door pins engaged the Rivethead door block, it still took some effort to fully engage the pins. There were several factors that added to the effort:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>There is a lot of internal friction the Van’s ratchet mechanism. Application of white grease made operation *much* easier
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>White grease on the door pins reduced the effort required to latch the doors.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>There is a slight bow on the door. The long door pin should have a slight curve to ensure it does not bind against the in side of the door
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>The further the door pins go into the door blocks, the greater the closing effort required. I reduced mine so that the only extend about ¼” through the aluminum door posts.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>The more pressure required to push the door in place so the pins can engage, the more effort required to close the door
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>If the door perimeter contacts the canopy anywhere, the effort required to close the door will increase.
What I would do differently
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>When bonding the door halves, use considerable more epoxy & flox on the door perimeter especially close to the inner edge of the flanges to be bonded.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Pay more attention to the curves on the door pins (especially the long ones). One of the pins was binding on the door interior thus increasing the effort required to latch the door.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Grease the ratcheting mechanism before starting the door fit. A lot of the door stiffness comes from the door mechanisms. When trying to adjust the fit, it would have beneficial to have the stiffness out of the equation as it was sometime difficult to know what was causing the fit problems.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Install the door seals prior to doing the initial door fit.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Pay more attention to where the door seals are being compressed too much when closing the door PRIOR to trimming the inside of the canopy flange. (In some places, I had to build up the inside of the canopy flange as I had to take more off the outside of the flange. To reduce door compression.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Flox the fore and aft door pin guides when building the doors
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Install the Rivethead door blocks directly on the aluminum door posts rather than first fitting on the canopy.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Shim the Rivethead door blocks to ensure door alignment when fitting the doors
Then end result of this is I can now close and latch both doors with only one finger of pressure on the inside door handle with only one finger of pressure on the outside of the bottom of the door.
Cheers
Les
#40643 – Living in a f/g world
[quote][b]
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msausen
Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:55 pm Post subject: Tales from the dark OOPS I mean door side.... |
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Yes the doors are tons of fun. I have about 80 hours in mine at this point and probably about another 15 to go but they are very nice. For me the weather seal caused interference in the first third of the frame from the top. No problem on the bottom. The McMaster Carr weather stripping is nice but it does add a considerable amount of work to the doors in order to get it to fit well on the frame. I had to build up the inside of the frame a fair amount with flox before I could take the lip down to an acceptable amount and make the weather strip fit right. I also cut the little lip that is on the inside of the trim out. I also picked up some of the same trim with ¼” instead of the 3/16” that everyone has been getting. It tends to fit much better in the bulky areas of the cabin top but it does make for an extra 1/16” to account for.
Which actually brings me to another thing. Before deciding to go with the door frame weather stripping method I picked up some of the door weather stripping from Alex D. This is the stuff that conforms to the door better than the stock stuff from Van. I don’t need it now so if anyone is going with the stock method and wants to use this instead, I’ll save you a couple bucks and sell you mine for $60 shipped. Just drop me an email. You can see them here:
http://www.aviationtechproducts.com/html/products_pics.html#DoorSeal
Michael
From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Les Kearney
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:28 PM
To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Tales from the dark OOPS I mean door side....
Hi
Over the past few weeks I have been working on my canopy and doors.
I have experienced a wide range of emotions when dealing with the doors – mostly frustration! The doors seemed to be designed to test the will to build and our ability to persevere.
As part of the process I have studied the usual websites to see what others have done and trolled the archives for any hints and tips that might be useful. Here are some of the things that I did (or wish I had done the first time through) to get to doors that actually work.
When reading this, note that I used the Rivethead door blocks and the McMaster Carr door seals which mount on the canopy opening and not on the door. I also installed Steve DeNieri’s flush handles and locks.
What I did
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Trimmed the door halves oversize prior to bonding. The index holes didn’t match so bonding alignment was a concern. So was having enough material to allow clamping to the canopy while curing.
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>When bonding the door halves I followed the plans to a T. It turns out that most of the door edges get removed so it is important to have lots close in to the inside edge of the flanges. I ended up with several areas of delamination. I found that it was possible to inject epoxy into delaminated areas using a large bore hypo. The entire bottom edge of one door delaminated which strangely enough made repair easier.
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>The rear index holes didn’t match so door alignment relative to the door sill was a problem. It was possible that the inner door half could sit too low in the openings and not have reasonable clearance from the sills. Without correction, this might result in the doors sitting on the bottom of the door sill. To ensure consistent spacing between the door and the door sill, I taped stacks of popsicle sticks (3 in each) onto the bottom of the door sill. The inner door sat on these during the bonding process.
<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>The popsicle stick spacers also remained in place when during the initial door trim especially on the door top. I didn’t want to inadvertently trim the door to short buy taking too much off the top. The doors were left a little long until the hinges were installed.
<![if !supportLists]>5. <![endif]>The initial fit objective was to get the doors flush in the opening with only a tiny gap all the way round.
<![if !supportLists]>6. <![endif]>The Rivethead door blocks were installed on the canopy fibreglass door posts
<![if !supportLists]>7. <![endif]>After the hinges and door blocks were installed considerable time was spent getting the doors pins open / close easily. After door seals were installed, I got to do this all over again.
<![if !supportLists]>8. <![endif]>Using washers as shims between the hinge and the canopy can change the gap between the canopy door post and the door. I used washers on an aft door hinges to slightly raise the height of the aft side of the door which in turn increased the forward gap between the door post and the door.
<![if !supportLists]>9. <![endif]>During latching the doors move fore / aft depending on which door pin contacts the door first and which has more friction. This in turn moves the door in the frame and changes the fore / aft gaps between the door and he canopy. A shim in the door opening between the canopy and the door prevents this shift during fitting. Uncorrected, this was going to be a problem.
<![if !supportLists]>10. <![endif]>The door seals caused the bottom of the doors to be pushed out which in turn resulted in the considerable pressure being required (on the outside of the door) to close the door enough for the door pins to engage.
<![if !supportLists]>11. <![endif]>I found the once the door seals were more than ½ compressed, the resistive force on the doors increased significantly. By removing more material from the outside of the canopy opening, I was able to reduce the seal compression and get an easier to close door. This was especially true of the canopy door posts.
<![if !supportLists]>12. <![endif]>What made a *huge* difference in getting the doors to close easily was pushing the canopy door sill inboard by about 1/8” This moved the seal that contacts the bottom of the door inboard and took most of outward pressure off the bottom of the door.
<![if !supportLists]>13. <![endif]>I floxed the nylon guide blocks on the fire/aft edges of the doors so that they were flush with the inner door perimeter. Consequently they interfered with the previously installed Rivethead door blocks. To correct, the canopy door posts were notched to allow the Rivethead blocks to mount directly on the aluminum door posts and thereby provide clearance for the door. I shimmed the Rivethead blocks so that there was minimal clearance between the doors and the blocks. This ensures that the doors remain correctly aligned within the door opening. See #9.
<![if !supportLists]>14. <![endif]>Once the door pins engaged the Rivethead door block, it still took some effort to fully engage the pins. There were several factors that added to the effort:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>There is a lot of internal friction the Van’s ratchet mechanism. Application of white grease made operation *much* easier
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>White grease on the door pins reduced the effort required to latch the doors.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>There is a slight bow on the door. The long door pin should have a slight curve to ensure it does not bind against the in side of the door
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>The further the door pins go into the door blocks, the greater the closing effort required. I reduced mine so that the only extend about ¼” through the aluminum door posts.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>The more pressure required to push the door in place so the pins can engage, the more effort required to close the door
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>If the door perimeter contacts the canopy anywhere, the effort required to close the door will increase.
What I would do differently
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>When bonding the door halves, use considerable more epoxy & flox on the door perimeter especially close to the inner edge of the flanges to be bonded.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Pay more attention to the curves on the door pins (especially the long ones). One of the pins was binding on the door interior thus increasing the effort required to latch the door.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Grease the ratcheting mechanism before starting the door fit. A lot of the door stiffness comes from the door mechanisms. When trying to adjust the fit, it would have beneficial to have the stiffness out of the equation as it was sometime difficult to know what was causing the fit problems.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Install the door seals prior to doing the initial door fit.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Pay more attention to where the door seals are being compressed too much when closing the door PRIOR to trimming the inside of the canopy flange. (In some places, I had to build up the inside of the canopy flange as I had to take more off the outside of the flange. To reduce door compression.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Flox the fore and aft door pin guides when building the doors
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Install the Rivethead door blocks directly on the aluminum door posts rather than first fitting on the canopy.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Shim the Rivethead door blocks to ensure door alignment when fitting the doors
Then end result of this is I can now close and latch both doors with only one finger of pressure on the inside door handle with only one finger of pressure on the outside of the bottom of the door.
Cheers
Les
#40643 – Living in a f/g world [quote] _-=================================== | Quote: | | [b]http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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kearney
Joined: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 563
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| Posted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:50 am Post subject: Tales from the dark OOPS I mean door side.... |
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Hi
As follow up to my post below, I have discovered a couple of more things that may be of interest.
First, if the door pins are adjusted so that the front and back pins both contact the door blocks at the same time, the door does not seem to move fore or aft in the opening when latching. This mitigates the need for shims in the door blocks to prevent door movement when latching.
Next, over the past few days I have been repeatedly opening and closing the doors to “work” the mechanisms. In doing this the grease that I used seems to be getting further into the gears etc. Consequently, the door action is getting smoother and easier to operate. In a couple off weeks I plan the doors & mechanisms. When I re-install, I plan to grease prior to reassembly and see what impact this has.
Cheers
Les
#40643 – living in a f/g world
From: Les Kearney [mailto:kearney(at)shaw.ca]
Sent: August-29-09 2:28 PM
To: 'rv10-list(at)matronics.com'
Subject: Tales from the dark OOPS I mean door side....
Hi
Over the past few weeks I have been working on my canopy and doors.
I have experienced a wide range of emotions when dealing with the doors – mostly frustration! The doors seemed to be designed to test the will to build and our ability to persevere.
As part of the process I have studied the usual websites to see what others have done and trolled the archives for any hints and tips that might be useful. Here are some of the things that I did (or wish I had done the first time through) to get to doors that actually work.
When reading this, note that I used the Rivethead door blocks and the McMaster Carr door seals which mount on the canopy opening and not on the door. I also installed Steve DeNieri’s flush handles and locks.
What I did
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Trimmed the door halves oversize prior to bonding. The index holes didn’t match so bonding alignment was a concern. So was having enough material to allow clamping to the canopy while curing.
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>When bonding the door halves I followed the plans to a T. It turns out that most of the door edges get removed so it is important to have lots close in to the inside edge of the flanges. I ended up with several areas of delamination. I found that it was possible to inject epoxy into delaminated areas using a large bore hypo. The entire bottom edge of one door delaminated which strangely enough made repair easier.
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>The rear index holes didn’t match so door alignment relative to the door sill was a problem. It was possible that the inner door half could sit too low in the openings and not have reasonable clearance from the sills. Without correction, this might result in the doors sitting on the bottom of the door sill. To ensure consistent spacing between the door and the door sill, I taped stacks of popsicle sticks (3 in each) onto the bottom of the door sill. The inner door sat on these during the bonding process.
<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>The popsicle stick spacers also remained in place when during the initial door trim especially on the door top. I didn’t want to inadvertently trim the door to short buy taking too much off the top. The doors were left a little long until the hinges were installed.
<![if !supportLists]>5. <![endif]>The initial fit objective was to get the doors flush in the opening with only a tiny gap all the way round.
<![if !supportLists]>6. <![endif]>The Rivethead door blocks were installed on the canopy fibreglass door posts
<![if !supportLists]>7. <![endif]>After the hinges and door blocks were installed considerable time was spent getting the doors pins open / close easily. After door seals were installed, I got to do this all over again.
<![if !supportLists]>8. <![endif]>Using washers as shims between the hinge and the canopy can change the gap between the canopy door post and the door. I used washers on an aft door hinges to slightly raise the height of the aft side of the door which in turn increased the forward gap between the door post and the door.
<![if !supportLists]>9. <![endif]>During latching the doors move fore / aft depending on which door pin contacts the door first and which has more friction. This in turn moves the door in the frame and changes the fore / aft gaps between the door and he canopy. A shim in the door opening between the canopy and the door prevents this shift during fitting. Uncorrected, this was going to be a problem.
<![if !supportLists]>10. <![endif]>The door seals caused the bottom of the doors to be pushed out which in turn resulted in the considerable pressure being required (on the outside of the door) to close the door enough for the door pins to engage.
<![if !supportLists]>11. <![endif]>I found the once the door seals were more than ½ compressed, the resistive force on the doors increased significantly. By removing more material from the outside of the canopy opening, I was able to reduce the seal compression and get an easier to close door. This was especially true of the canopy door posts.
<![if !supportLists]>12. <![endif]>What made a *huge* difference in getting the doors to close easily was pushing the canopy door sill inboard by about 1/8” This moved the seal that contacts the bottom of the door inboard and took most of outward pressure off the bottom of the door.
<![if !supportLists]>13. <![endif]>I floxed the nylon guide blocks on the fire/aft edges of the doors so that they were flush with the inner door perimeter. Consequently they interfered with the previously installed Rivethead door blocks. To correct, the canopy door posts were notched to allow the Rivethead blocks to mount directly on the aluminum door posts and thereby provide clearance for the door. I shimmed the Rivethead blocks so that there was minimal clearance between the doors and the blocks. This ensures that the doors remain correctly aligned within the door opening. See #9.
<![if !supportLists]>14. <![endif]>Once the door pins engaged the Rivethead door block, it still took some effort to fully engage the pins. There were several factors that added to the effort:
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>There is a lot of internal friction the Van’s ratchet mechanism. Application of white grease made operation *much* easier
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>White grease on the door pins reduced the effort required to latch the doors.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>There is a slight bow on the door. The long door pin should have a slight curve to ensure it does not bind against the in side of the door
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>The further the door pins go into the door blocks, the greater the closing effort required. I reduced mine so that the only extend about ¼” through the aluminum door posts.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>The more pressure required to push the door in place so the pins can engage, the more effort required to close the door
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>If the door perimeter contacts the canopy anywhere, the effort required to close the door will increase.
What I would do differently
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>When bonding the door halves, use considerable more epoxy & flox on the door perimeter especially close to the inner edge of the flanges to be bonded.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Pay more attention to the curves on the door pins (especially the long ones). One of the pins was binding on the door interior thus increasing the effort required to latch the door.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Grease the ratcheting mechanism before starting the door fit. A lot of the door stiffness comes from the door mechanisms. When trying to adjust the fit, it would have beneficial to have the stiffness out of the equation as it was sometime difficult to know what was causing the fit problems.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Install the door seals prior to doing the initial door fit.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Pay more attention to where the door seals are being compressed too much when closing the door PRIOR to trimming the inside of the canopy flange. (In some places, I had to build up the inside of the canopy flange as I had to take more off the outside of the flange. To reduce door compression.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Flox the fore and aft door pin guides when building the doors
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Install the Rivethead door blocks directly on the aluminum door posts rather than first fitting on the canopy.
<![if !supportLists]>· <![endif]>Shim the Rivethead door blocks to ensure door alignment when fitting the doors
Then end result of this is I can now close and latch both doors with only one finger of pressure on the inside door handle with only one finger of pressure on the outside of the bottom of the door.
Cheers
Les
#40643 – Living in a f/g world
[quote][b]
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http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List |
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