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wing attach vector

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: wing attach vector

Here's one to ponder. ..  Maybe it has been covered before and I  

missed it.

Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90  

outboard, where would the net

force be pushing on the front attach fitting?  325?



Jack Hart is our most analytical soul  

BB

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dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: wing attach vector

I would like to know how to find out, I would like to guess 330 degrees

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_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:04 pm Post subject: wing attach vector

 	  Quote: 	
		  From "Stress Without Tears" by Tom Rhodes, Chapter 4, figure 6, the direction of the load at the spar attach comes straight in from the spar or in the original question here, 270 degrees. All other loads come into the fuselage at the strut attach fitting. 


	


Rick Girard

do not archive



On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 8:49 PM, dalewhelan <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net (dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "dalewhelan" <dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net (dalewhelan(at)earthlink.net)>

  

 I would like to know how to find out, I would like to guess 330 degrees

 

 --------

 Dale Whelan

 503 powered Firestar II

 Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=261970#261970

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: wing attach vector

At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Here's one to ponder. ..  Maybe it has been covered before and I  

missed it.

Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90  

outboard, where would the net

force be pushing on the front attach fitting?  325?



Jack Hart is our most analytical soul  


	




Bob,



I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the 

calculations.  I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing horizontal. 

 Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight.



I calculated two cases.  The first assumes the load is evenly distributed 

over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the wing tip 

to the hole through the main spar tab.  For the second case I assumed that 

the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air spilling 

off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward.



The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the first case 

and 187 degrees for the second case.  When you think about it is reasonable. 

 With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the strut.  This 

means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut anchoring 

point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting.  But the spar 

between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression.  In the 

FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45 

degrees to the wing.  So the spar compression is almost equal to the lift.  

With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little up load 

at the spar cage attachment point.  And so the vector comes out close to 180 

degrees.



I hope this makes sense.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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aslsa.rng(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: wing attach vector

Jack, Forgive me but under the reference frame where 0 /360 is up (parallel to lift) having the spar pin load at 180 (straight down) is just not obvious to me. Are we talking differing reference frames? If not, can you explain how the load coming in from the spar takes a hard 90 degree turn. I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to start a Florida discussion , I honestly just don't see it.

Rick Girard

do not archive

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

 At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote:

 >--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>

 >

 >Here's one to ponder. ..  Maybe it has been covered before and I

 >missed it.

 >Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90

 >outboard, where would the net

 >force be pushing on the front attach fitting?  325?

 >

 >Jack Hart is our most analytical soul  

 Bob,

 I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the

 calculations.  I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing horizontal.

  Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight.

 I calculated two cases.  The first assumes the load is evenly distributed

 over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the wing tip

 to the hole through the main spar tab.  For the second case I assumed that

 the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air spilling

 off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward.

 The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the first case

 and 187 degrees for the second case.  When you think about it is reasonable.

  With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the strut.  This

 means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut anchoring

 point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting.  But the spar

 between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression.  In the

 FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45

 degrees to the wing.  So the spar compression is almost equal to the lift.

 With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little up load

 at the spar cage attachment point.  And so the vector comes out close to 180

 degrees.

 I hope this makes sense.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 [b]

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:42 am Post subject: wing attach vector

Rick,  Jack has been doing some inverted flight.BB

On 8, Sep 2009, at 1:17 PM, Richard Girard wrote:

[quote]Jack, Forgive me but under the reference frame where 0 /360 is up (parallel to lift) having the spar pin load at 180 (straight down) is just not obvious to me. Are we talking differing reference frames? If not, can you explain how the load coming in from the spar takes a hard 90 degree turn. I'm not saying you're wrong or trying to start a Florida discussion , I honestly just don't see it.

Rick Girard

do not archive

On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 12:55 PM, Jack B. Hart <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)> wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>

 At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote:

 >--> Kolb-List message posted by: robert bean <slyck(at)frontiernet.net (slyck(at)frontiernet.net)>

 >

 >Here's one to ponder. ..  Maybe it has been covered before and I

 >missed it.

 >Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90

 >outboard, where would the net

 >force be pushing on the front attach fitting?  325?

 >

 >Jack Hart is our most analytical soul  

 Bob,

 I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the

 calculations.  I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing horizontal.

  Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight.

 I calculated two cases.  The first assumes the load is evenly distributed

 over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the wing tip

 to the hole through the main spar tab.  For the second case I assumed that

 the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air spilling

 off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward.

 The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the first case

 and 187 degrees for the second case.  When you think about it is reasonable.

  With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the strut.  This

 means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut anchoring

 point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting.  But the spar

 between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression.  In the

 FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45

 degrees to the wing.  So the spar compression is almost equal to the lift.

 With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little up load

 at the spar cage attachment point.  And so the vector comes out close to 180

 degrees.

 I hope this makes sense.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 ===========

 arget="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

 ===========

 http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:14 pm Post subject: wing attach vector

You guys got me.  I calculated everything with zero to the right, and forgot to rotate to your reference system, one would have add 90 degrees.  The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 285 degrees for the first case and 277 degrees for the second case.  



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN



At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Here's one to ponder. ..  Maybe it has been covered before and I  

missed it.

Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90  

outboard, where would the net

force be pushing on the front attach fitting?  325?



Jack Hart is our most analytical soul  


	




Bob,



I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the 

calculations.  I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing horizontal. 

 Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight.



I calculated two cases.  The first assumes the load is evenly distributed 

over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the wing tip 

to the hole through the main spar tab.  For the second case I assumed that 

the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air spilling 

off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward.



The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the first case 

and 187 degrees for the second case.  When you think about it is reasonable. 

 With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the strut.  This 

means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut anchoring 

point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting.  But the spar 

between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression.  In the 

FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45 

degrees to the wing.  So the spar compression is almost equal to the lift.  

With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little up load 

at the spar cage attachment point.  And so the vector comes out close to 180 

degrees.



I hope this makes sense.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: wing attach vector

That's an agreeable (and believable) calculation. If the force at  

that point was only tension the beam between could be

a skinny little tube.  The square tube on the MkII has a reason.  - 

not sure what the FF has there.

The forward cabin area is subject to reversals of thrust, such as  

during a hard landing when the engine weight and wing forces give

a downward (and outward) whack.

Thanks Jack.

BB

On 8, Sep 2009, at 7:23 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

 You guys got me.  I calculated everything with zero to the right,  

 and forgot to rotate to your reference system, one would have add  

 90 degrees.  The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 285  

 degrees for the first case and 277 degrees for the second case.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

 At 11:04 AM 9/7/09 -0400, you wrote:

> 

>

> Here's one to ponder. ..  Maybe it has been covered before and I

> missed it.

> Assuming a compass of 360 degrees with 0/360 at the top and 90

> outboard, where would the net

> force be pushing on the front attach fitting?  325?

>

> Jack Hart is our most analytical soul  

 Bob,

 I took some measurements off the FireFly so that I could run the

 calculations.  I did not consider dihedral, and assumed the wing  

 horizontal.

  Also, I assumed the main spar carried all the weight.

 I calculated two cases.  The first assumes the load is evenly  

 distributed

 over the entire wing and so the load was applied mid way from the  

 wing tip

 to the hole through the main spar tab.  For the second case I  

 assumed that

 the outer 20% of the wing does not support any lift due to the air  

 spilling

 off the wing tip. Therefore the spar center of lift moved inward.

 The cage hole reaction vector was found to be 195 degrees for the  

 first case

 and 187 degrees for the second case.  When you think about it is  

 reasonable.

  With a strut design, most of the lift force is taken up by the  

 strut.  This

 means that most of the lift force flows down to the lower strut  

 anchoring

 point on the cage and this point does most of the lifting.  But the  

 spar

 between the strut attachment point to the cage is in compression.   

 In the

 FireFly configuration, the strut angle measures out to be close to 45

 degrees to the wing.  So the spar compression is almost equal to  

 the lift.

 With most of the lift supported by the strut, there is very little  

 up load

 at the spar cage attachment point.  And so the vector comes out  

 close to 180

 degrees.

 I hope this makes sense.

 Jack B. Hart FF004

 Winchester, IN

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