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Lew Gallagher

Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 402
Location: Greenville , SC

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:10 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Hey guys,



I've been thinking about this for awhile and thought I'd air it out -- especially now that many of you might check it out at Osh with the vendors.



What do you think of winglets instead of just wingtips?  Supposedly they create a better vortex, enhance lift ... ?  I dunno, but now I see them in the magazines (Plane & Pilot) on the new Diamonds and Cessna 400 etc. -- not just the big commercial planes. 



From a builder's point of view, is it just as easy to fit a winglet as a wingtip?, stress/structure issues?, would they change flying/handling?  how to engineer them for the -10?



I read here about counting ounces and fine tuning everything from injectors to positioning antennas to tweak the most out of efficiency, reducing drag, etc.  ... winglets would seem to be an obvious area to look into.



Whatcha think?



Later, - Lew

_________________
non-pilot
crazy about building
NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549
Fly off completed !

orchidman

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:39 am Post subject: Re: Winglts ?

I asked this question in the Vans tent 2 years ago and was blown off because they didn't think it would add any significant performance.  Something about having relatively short wings.

_________________
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:48 am Post subject: Re: Winglts ?

You need a big wing before it really makes any difference, and it's minor at that.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:53 am Post subject: Winglts ?

There was a great discussion of winglets on the Lancair Mail List a few weeks ago.  What I took from it was that winglets improve efficiency at high angles of attack:  take-off, climb, landing, and very high altitude cruise.  Perfect for airliners and pressurized GA planes but not so helpful for planes like RVs.  At low angles of attack, where RVs excel, winglets would most likely slow the plane down.

 

Plus, there's a lot of engineering and testing that goes into a winglet--they aren't a simple bolt-on.  The angles and airfoils are critical.  I understand the airlines use them to gain tiny efficiencies that pay off over millions of miles.

 

Dave



On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 6:10 AM, Lew Gallagher <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   --> RV10-List message posted by: "Lew Gallagher" <lewgall(at)charter.net (lewgall(at)charter.net)>

 

 Hey guys,

 

 I've been thinking about this for awhile and thought I'd air it out -- especially now that many of you might check it out at Osh with the vendors.

 

 What do you think of winglets instead of just wingtips?  Supposedly they create a better vortex, enhance lift ... ?  I dunno, but now I see them in the magazines (Plane & Pilot) on the new Diamonds and Cessna 400 etc. -- not just the big commercial planes.

  

 >From a builder's point of view, is it just as easy to fit a winglet as a wingtip?, stress/structure issues?, would they change flying/handling?  how to engineer them for the -10?

 

 I read here about counting ounces and fine tuning everything from injectors to positioning antennas to tweak the most out of efficiency, reducing drag, etc.  ... winglets would seem to be an obvious area to look into.

  

 Whatcha think?

 

 Later, - Lew

 

 --------

 non-pilot

 crazy about building

 NOW OFICIALLY BUILDER #40549

 Painting done!

 On with wiring and avionics.

 

 

 

 

 Read this topic online here:

 

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=253313#253313

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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 le, List Admin.

 ="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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-- 

Dave Saylor

AirCrafters LLC

140 Aviation Way

Watsonville, CA 95076

831-722-9141 Shop

831-750-0284 Cell

  [quote][b]

N520TX

Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 9

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:54 am Post subject: Winglts ?

A neighbor of mine hosted a rotary engine fly-in a couple months ago. There 

was a guy there that has a custom fiberglass molding business - he brought a 

pair of what are called "finch-tips". These are tips where the outboard edge 

sweeps down and rearward. They only fit the 4/6/7/9 currently and he was 

looking for someone to test fly them to gather numbers.



I did the work to install them on my 7a and have flown them twice so far. 

The stall speeds are unchanged, but in my trials so far, I've seen that the 

mid-power range speeds are improved by about 7mph. I'm far from complete 

with my flight testing, but they are showing promise. I have photo's posted 

on my picasa page - http://picasaweb.google.com/n520tx/NewWingtips#.



When I get all my testing done, I plan to post up the final numbers on my 

web site.



For what it's worth ...



Ron



---

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Ron,

	Thanks for the post. The tip looked like a pretty good match for

a prototype. It's funny how ego plays a part in these things. The exact

same wing tip flipped up has some marketing potential but a turned down

winglet much like the old Cherokee wing tips are more of an eyesore (to

my design sensibilities). Regardless please keep us informed of your

test results.



Robin

--

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:43 am Post subject: Winglts ?

That, and the fact that the wing is 'Hershey bar' shape.  I think 

winglets would be far more efficient on a swept wing.

Linn



orchidman wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I asked this question in the Vans tent 2 years ago and was blown off because they didn't think it would add any significant performance.  Something about having relatively short wings.



 --------

 Gary Blankenbiller

 RV10 - # 40674

 (N2GB Flying)





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 53329#253329

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:14 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Well, I kinda like the droop tips on the Cherokee.  Klingon warship 

comes to mind.  I think the droop style would help the low speed stall 

far more than a swept up winglet.  The droop tips on the Cherokee really 

do make a short field landing far shorter!!!

Linn



Robin Marks wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Ron,

 	Thanks for the post. The tip looked like a pretty good match for

 a prototype. It's funny how ego plays a part in these things. The exact

 same wing tip flipped up has some marketing potential but a turned down

 winglet much like the old Cherokee wing tips are more of an eyesore (to

 my design sensibilities). Regardless please keep us informed of your

 test results.



 Robin

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Anyone using other than Cleveland brakes  mine are getting hot and  

wearing out too fast.any other brakes recommended or being used?



Sent from my iPhone



Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com



On Jul 16, 2009, at 1:41 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>  

wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 >



 That, and the fact that the wing is 'Hershey bar' shape.  I think  

 winglets would be far more efficient on a swept wing.

 Linn



 orchidman wrote:

> 

>

> I asked this question in the Vans tent 2 years ago and was blown  

> off because they didn't think it would add any significant  

> performance.  Something about having relatively short wings.

>

> --------

> Gary Blankenbiller

> RV10 - # 40674

> (N2GB Flying)

>

>

> Read this topic online here:

>

> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 53329#253329

>

>

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:25 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

The larger mass of an upgraded rotor can assist cooling as can a larger

caliper.  The technical support at Cleveland can assist in beginning

with their parts used and larger upgrades.  Tim James did a great job

with OEM Cessna. There is also Beringer.  Beyond the benefit of cooler

temperatures is the shorter stopping distance at the same speed and same

weight.  Don't forget to think about a fluid upgrade as H-5606 is more

combustible than alternatives.  Once a brake line leaks the chain

reaction begins.



John Cox

,

--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

VGs also help the slow speed characteristics without shocking the design

sensibilities of a few readers.  What one calls a winglet might not

reach the NACA standard, but might be just another unique wing tip

design.



New ideas are always a fresh perspective with OSH just around the

corner.



John Cox



--

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

are you using this upgrade on your rv10?

On Jul 16, 2009, at 3:24 PM, John Cox wrote:



[quote] 



 The larger mass of an upgraded rotor can assist cooling as can a  

 larger

 caliper.  The technical support at Cleveland can assist in beginning

 with their parts used and larger upgrades.  Tim James did a great job

 with OEM Cessna. There is also Beringer.  Beyond the benefit of cooler

 temperatures is the shorter stopping distance at the same speed and  

 same

 weight.  Don't forget to think about a fluid upgrade as H-5606 is more

 combustible than alternatives.  Once a brake line leaks the chain

 reaction begins.



 John Cox

 ,

 --

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

Robert, 



I am going with 0.375" thick rotors and dual pad calipers per side to

spread the force.  A couple of RV-x main landing gear caliper fires that

consumed the glass pant caused a few to change from H-5606 a few years

back. The flame propagation was right below each main AVGAS fuel tank.

Fiberglass fires are a perverted thing to watch. So take a test sample

and learn by experiment not experience how the cured resin and glass

strands come to life until gone. Mine was watching a '69 Vette being

prepped for custom paint.

 

VANS mantra is stay conservative with the brakes and build your kit bone

stock.  Some of us tend to lean into the wind - just for the fresh sea

breeze in the summer. With a Barrett and Forsling Exhaust, the brake

upgrade was an easy choice.  Ask about VGs for the RV-10 at OSH.



Mil H-83282 provides another level of combustion protection.  I have

found that H-5606 tends to coagulate with age. Its low flash point is

routinely accepted by most builders without consideration of

alternatives.



Some will yell "Stay off the brakes and learn Happy Feet".  Then your

neighborhood A&P will explain how proper engine leaning and a higher

idle than 700 or 800 will cause the aircraft to move in a forward

direction requiring those darned toes again.



Fly Often, Fly Safe, Earn your grey hair over time.  Take a Grandchild

for a Young Eagles flight.  Stop by Camp Condrey for a beer.



John



--

HYDRAULIC_FLUIDS.pdf

Description:

Download

Filename:

HYDRAULIC_FLUIDS.pdf

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60.56 KB

Downloaded:

2616 Time(s)

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 1:48 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

IIRC the blended airfoil winglets on B7x7 aircraft account for 3-4% fuel economy as well as lowered stall speed, etc. There are droop wingtips for aircraft such as hersey bar Cherokees and C172s that apparently are effective for stall reduction without too much drag addition.

 

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 7:52 AM, Dave Saylor <dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com (dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote] There was a great discussion of winglets on the Lancair Mail List a few weeks ago.  What I took from it was that winglets improve efficiency at high angles of attack:  take-off, climb, landing, and very high altitude cruise.  Perfect for airliners and pressurized GA planes but not so helpful for planes like RVs.  At low angles of attack, where RVs excel, winglets would most likely slow the plane down.

  

Plus, there's a lot of engineering and testing that goes into a winglet--they aren't a simple bolt-on.  The angles and airfoils are critical.  I understand the airlines use them to gain tiny efficiencies that pay off over millions of miles.

  

Dave

[b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:50 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

Thanks for the help. Where do I get the parts and how much has to be  

done to the fairings brackets to make the upgrade fit



Sent from my iPhone



Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com



On Jul 16, 2009, at 4:46 PM, "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com> wrote:



[quote] Robert,



 I am going with 0.375" thick rotors and dual pad calipers per side to

 spread the force.  A couple of RV-x main landing gear caliper fires  

 that

 consumed the glass pant caused a few to change from H-5606 a few years

 back. The flame propagation was right below each main AVGAS fuel tank.

 Fiberglass fires are a perverted thing to watch. So take a test sample

 and learn by experiment not experience how the cured resin and glass

 strands come to life until gone. Mine was watching a '69 Vette being

 prepped for custom paint.



 VANS mantra is stay conservative with the brakes and build your kit  

 bone

 stock.  Some of us tend to lean into the wind - just for the fresh sea

 breeze in the summer. With a Barrett and Forsling Exhaust, the brake

 upgrade was an easy choice.  Ask about VGs for the RV-10 at OSH.



 Mil H-83282 provides another level of combustion protection.  I have

 found that H-5606 tends to coagulate with age. Its low flash point is

 routinely accepted by most builders without consideration of

 alternatives.



 Some will yell "Stay off the brakes and learn Happy Feet".  Then your

 neighborhood A&P will explain how proper engine leaning and a higher

 idle than 700 or 800 will cause the aircraft to move in a forward

 direction requiring those darned toes again.



 Fly Often, Fly Safe, Earn your grey hair over time.  Take a Grandchild

 for a Young Eagles flight.  Stop by Camp Condrey for a beer.



 John



 --

pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

This is a first for me.  I've used Cleveland brakes almost my whole 

flying life, and find them better than the alternatives.  My only guess 

is that you ride the brakes while taxiing (give the brakes a tap or two 

to keep the nose pointed to where you want to go rather than constant 

pressure) ...... or your brakes don't relax when you release them.  I'd 

check to make sure the brake cylinder rides on the pins freely.  They 

don't need lubrication, which usually just gums them up and attracts 

dirt.  Are the pads wearing evenly???  Uneven wear is a sign of the 

brake cylinder hanging up on the pins, or a mounting problem.  Improper 

break-in could also be a cause.

Linn



Robert Brunkenhoefer wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <rebrunk42(at)gmail.com>



 Anyone using other than Cleveland brakes  mine are getting hot and 

 wearing out too fast.any other brakes recommended or being used?



 Sent from my iPhone



 Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

 Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

 520 Lawrence St.

 Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

 Phone: 361-888-8808

 Facsimile: 361-888-6753

 robert(at)brunklaw.com

robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:40 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

Yes I'll admit it, I would not add drop down winglets to my -10 if it

added 15 more knots in cruise and washed itself when it was dirty.

That being said... John have you seen the clear rubberized VG's on the

Cessna Columbia's leading edge? Small in profile and difficult to see

unless you are either looking for them or right up against the wing.

Also interesting because they are on the forward most portion of the

leading edge vs. typical VG's further up the curvature of the wing.

Interesting item. 

I thought that one could design and mold them in 18" sections and just

link end to end. Then I remembered that one would have to conduct proper

R&D first. Oh that.....



Robin



--

AV8ORJWC

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1149
Location: Aurora, Oregon "Home of VANS"

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: Winglts ?

Tim James #623 has done a major improvement in both handling and low

speed flight with his VGs.  Others might query at OSH and post their

impressions here.



The 10 can provide some great, short, soft, H DenAlt landings and

unimproved surfaces with a few reasonably simple mods.  



For many who never leave the asphalt jungle, I understand.



John 



--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:14 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Unfortunately, VGs benefits come at a cost of reduced cruise speed. Depends on airfoil and max speed range. I would not be surprised to see a loss of 3-5 kts from cruise. Fine if you main mission is back country, not so good if you mainly fly cross country.

 

On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:26 PM, John Cox <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)> wrote:

[quote] --> RV10-List message posted by: "John Cox" <johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com (johnwcox(at)pacificnw.com)>

 

 

Tim James #623 has done a major improvement in both handling and low

 speed flight with his VGs.  Others might query at OSH and post their

 impressions here.

 

 The 10 can provide some great, short, soft, H DenAlt landings and

 unimproved surfaces with a few reasonably simple mods.

 

 For many who never leave the asphalt jungle, I understand.

 

 John

 

 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:13 am Post subject: Winglts ?

Thanks for the info I will try and check those items. Robert n661g  

130hrs

Sent from my iPhone

Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com

On Jul 16, 2009, at 9:21 PM, Linn Walters <pitts_pilot(at)bellsouth.net>  

wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 >

 This is a first for me.  I've used Cleveland brakes almost my whole  

 flying life, and find them better than the alternatives.  My only  

 guess is that you ride the brakes while taxiing (give the brakes a  

 tap or two to keep the nose pointed to where you want to go rather  

 than constant pressure) ...... or your brakes don't relax when you  

 release them.  I'd check to make sure the brake cylinder rides on  

 the pins freely.  They don't need lubrication, which usually just  

 gums them up and attracts dirt.  Are the pads wearing evenly???   

 Uneven wear is a sign of the brake cylinder hanging up on the pins,  

 or a mounting problem.  Improper break-in could also be a cause.

 Linn

 Robert Brunkenhoefer wrote:

> 

> >

>

> Anyone using other than Cleveland brakes  mine are getting hot and  

> wearing out too fast.any other brakes recommended or being used?

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

> Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

> 520 Lawrence St.

> Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

> Phone: 361-888-8808

> Facsimile: 361-888-6753

> robert(at)brunklaw.com

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