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Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

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kgderosier(at)gmail.com
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Posted: Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

Leonard,  (snake)

      I am looking at purchasing a Kitfox Model 3 on Aerocet floats.  How does this airplane perform on taxi on a grass strip.  Also what engine do you have in yours?  Have you heard of using a Hirth F30 100 HP?  I have lots of questions about that.

  Thanks Gale D.

 New to the forum

 On Fri, Sep 4, 2009 at 8:16 PM, akflyer <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)> wrote:

 [quote]--> Kitfox-List message posted by: "akflyer" <akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com (akflyer_2000(at)yahoo.com)>

 

On a tail wheel, you have to be ready on the brakes.  If she starts to get away from you, at that critical transition from having enough air over the rudder to make it effective, and the tail wheel still inches off the ground, (or in your case light due to the down elevator) your only option is to get on the brakes!  I was running tight chains on mine with compression springs, but with the chains tight, I could not get the tail wheel to unlock and swivel for tight turns into parking.  I had to loosen them up and it made it a little more forgiving on the landings.

 

Landings, I always practice and perform full stall tail wheel first on the numbers (or before depending on the runway I am on).  I fly into and out of some very short strips and what we will do in a pinch, is what we practice as the norm.  Some one way strips I go into leave NO room for error.  you miss judge one foot of altitude and your eating trees at the end or river bank at the beginning.  On landing, the elevator controls airspeed, the power controls decent rate PERIOD.  If you want to drag it in slow, keep the power on and ride both elevator and power to keep speed and altitude under control.   If you are falling out of the sky and bouncing hard, it is because you are flaring to high and hold it off at to high an altitude.

 

The J3, PA 12 etc. that you flew were easier on you because of the longer moment on the tail.  There is no real foot work required to keep a 12 or J3 or 18 heading down the runway unless you have a nasty crosswind, but believe me, if any of the above start swinging on you, the ONLY way you will get them back is with good brakes.  Been there, done that and have the Tee shirt (and scuffed wing tips).

 

Without using brakes, how do you land short?  I can consistently drag mine in and be stopped and turned around in under 75'.  The second the mains are on the ground I am STANDING on the mushy stock Matco brakes.  I am going to do the pedal mods for better braking when I take mine off floats and go back to wheels so I can lock them up at touch down if need be.

 

Just my .02... and that wont get you a starbucks even if you kick in another $3.00



--------

DO NOT ARCHIVE

Leonard Perry aka SNAKE

Soldotna AK

Avid "C" / Mk IV

582 IVO IFA

Full Lotus 1450

 #1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009



hander outer of humorless darwin awards





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akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

I have not flown the3 Aerocets so I cant tell ya on that one.

_________________
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Leonard Perry aka SNAKE
Soldotna AK
Avid "C" / Mk IV
582 (147 hrs and counting on the rebuild)
IVO IFA
Full Lotus 1450
#1 snake oil salesman since 1-22-2009

I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die....

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:17 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

Aerocet 1100's  are a decent float in the water but under floated some what.  I try to avoid rough grass strips and seaplane ramps as the amphib gear is not built super  tough. It is all SS And it will crack  and bend in time.  I have replace alot of gear parts with 4130 chrome moly that I have made for it .



Floats are a compromise,  most amphib float made now are light duty especially on the gear, Czeck, downwind sharks, puddlejumper , Aerocet 1100s.  



I will might be doing the test flying of the new 1400 floats from Clamar soon      http://www.clamarfloats.com/1400.htm   These are not your 10k$ float but about 20 k .   If you have seen a Clamar before you will know that they are a float in demand.  They make up to 3500s and are about 5 miles from me . They will also offer a lower priced version in kitform.



These  will the best constructed LSA float in the market from what I seen so far.



I just got back from a 3 day trip on floats doing service to a plane in the bush. 10 hours on Aerocets and about 3 hours on Kitfox on Full lotus 1260s.  Both have their attributes but the full lotus struggles to get on the step with 2 on board.   Aerocet  much faster off the water.  



Hirth engines-- no experience.



Rotax Dealer, Ontario Canada

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dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

 	  akflyer wrote: 	
		  I have not flown the3 Aerocets so I cant tell ya on that one. 	




Where is your C o G in relation to the step on full lotus and what model full lotus ?

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:36 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

1450s and the CG (most rearward I plan to load it 19") is 6" ahead of the step.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

 	  akflyer wrote: 	
		  1450s and the CG (most rearward I plan to load it 19") is 6" ahead of the step. 	


on 1260s  straight floats , full lotus recos  the C of G to be 4 " ahead of the step.  I found that solo this works ok but dual you cannot get up on the step with full forward stick.  What size was your old floats ?

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:03 am Post subject: Full lotus 1260 tricks

ahhh yes.. I have flown the Fox on 1220 and 1260.  If you get the CG far enough ahead of the step to be able to get on step at gross, the nose of the floats will dig in and ship water over the top if you come off the power too fast when you land.  That is why I went to the 1450s for my Avid.



Few tricks to help get ya on step on the 1260s (all of which I have personally done and use all the time in my buddies KF II on my old 1260s).



Full power then AGGRESSIVE full up to  full down to get it rocking.  Normal on the third or fourth pop you can get it to push over onto step.  You have to really slam that stick though to get it to "pop" over.



Run one float up onto the grass or mud bank and she will jump right onto step then get back in the water for normal takeoff.

If you have a small grass island in the lake, just run across that and you will be on step when ya hit the other side.



Allot of times, you can get her to go on step DOWN wind but cant get on step upwind.  These floats don't step turn like a normal float.  To make them turn nice, you have to give it full down and get them to ride on the front half of the hull.  Normal floats you would hold in a little back stick to keep that sweet spot, NOT on Full lotus.  Get it on step down wind, push that nose over and full power step turn into wind, make normal take off.



Use full flaps to help push the nose over.  Allot of times, just popping in full flaps will get her to lay over, but as soon as it is on step, I take the flaps back down to about 5 degrees.  I am normally flying in pretty windy conditions, and do not like the diminished aileron response, especially when I roll a float out of the water and want to hold it and pop the other float out.  I want all aileron control I can get and I just don't like the feel with full flaps in.



Any other tricks I can think of, I will let ya know.



Anyone who is considering getting full lotus for your KF or Avid, get the 1450s.  They were designed for the KF or Avid type aircraft and have 15" more float from the step forward so the noses wont dig when you set the CG of the plane far enough back on the floats.

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

Great tips- I tried em all the last few days with no luck with 2 on board. 

dump off passenger  and she pops off nicely . 

 It almost seems like not enough forward stick is there. I am thinking of moving the floats back about 2 inches to try.  I was out in  10 to 12 knots winds with 2 on board and no way waves would crash over tops.



This was a 582 Kitfox and likely if the plane had a 912 or heavier engine then it would have been ok with the C of G  4 inches ahead of the Step . I think it needs more but fear the water rush over top.

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

I never felt like it was going to go over, but it did ship water over the noses a couple times when I moved the plane forward on them if I came off the power real quick.  Move them back 2 " and try it again, just be aware of not touching down and just chopping the power all the way off instantly.  Keep some power on and let her settle in with the stick in your lap!

dave

Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 1382

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

There is a Beaver UL at my place that I fly with at times.  He has 1260 s on it and he gets water flowing a bit over top pf his.  

Would never totally submerge but phreaky to some. 

My Aerocets have the nose submerged lots while taxiing.  



I got hit by a wake by 2 cabin cruisers in a narrow river yesterday , the wake was about 3 feet high and i Hit them nearly 90 degrees. My floats were under the wake by at least 18 inches for a second. My Warp prop at idle made some weird noises while it spun partially submerged. The Warp survived, I am not sure if other props would have .

wingman

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 18

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

I have 1260's and  don't recognize any of these descriptions.

i use full throttle and at full load it takes 3 seconds of nose up before i push the stick forward and get on the step.

after that i neutralize the stick and wait for 10 seconds and then i am airborne at around 40 mph



i love the floats and would never put anything bigger on



W

_________________
Kitfox IV 1200
Rotax 912 ULS
on full lotus floats

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

you also have a 912.  the extra power you have masks the fact that the floats are not in the proper position.  The fact that you have to push the nose over proves that the step is not in the correct spot.  If the floats are set up right, you give it full up and full power at the same time, as the nose rises, you relax to neutral stick as she falls over on its own onto step.  you then make small corrections to keep it on the sweet spot.



oh, and for a kicker, the 1450s are 1" shorter than the 1260s.

wingman

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 18

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 1:43 am Post subject: lotus discussion

akflyer



Well these are the floats that full lotus recommends for this plane as far as i know. And 100 hp on this setup seems perfect to me.

However i could do it your way if i wanted to, but i prefer to use the stick actively to speed things up.

And i feel like i am very balanced when on the step.

I think that you may be a little underpowered if you are using only a 582 on this setup.

_________________
Kitfox IV 1200
Rotax 912 ULS
on full lotus floats

akflyer

Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 574
Location: Soldotna AK

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

Just to let ya know.  I have rigged these on 7 different aircraft from a PA 12, to PA 20 to kitfoxes and Avids.  rigging floats and making them work is not a new game to me.



If you talk to Jeff at FL, he will tell you there is a reason the 1450s were developed.  It was JUST for planes such as the kitfox or avid "style" due to the buoyancy issue on the front half of the floats.



Yes with a 912 you can mask the issue, however it is still there.  With a 582 you really need the proper floats to get the most out of your airplane.  I feel strongly enough about this to have spent the additional 6000 bucks to get the 1450's versus fighting the issue with my 1260's that I allready had.  At the end of the day, I would not trade the Fulllotus floats for ANY other float i the world for the type of flying I do, and for the abuse I dish out to them dang near every flight!  NO other float would allow me to do the things I like and want to do.. and in my twisted little brain the things I feel I have to do just because no one else can LOL

wingman

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 18

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: Wrecked a 2, 709, rudders, gear, two plane solution

Well you clearly have much more experience than me.

I have flown only 1260 and 1220's and been satisfied.

So i will hold my horses until i have tried the 1450's as well.

_________________
Kitfox IV 1200
Rotax 912 ULS
on full lotus floats

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