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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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 Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:15 am Post subject: Zenith701801-List Paul Lamar... |
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This posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several friends.......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the "801"
“This is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incorrectly designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the wing spars. Zenairs are not over designed to begin with having very thin skins.
"The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise (at) 11,000 msl is producing 5.9 0 -6.3 gallons an hour."
The numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or 37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at cruise.
Something is seriously wrong.
"The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most airframes."
What he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine RPM. No way is that going to happen.
This person is totally clueless.
I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time.
Paul Lamar”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications, but..
I am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic.
My project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only knows whatever I have modified in earlier years.
I built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes.
My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hours. Been flown in air from 97f to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's. Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to display their creations.
My responses..
1- When is this " accident" going to happen ??
2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web site and look at the pics.
3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap.
4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And it is less then his "estimation"
5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free shot.
6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine has twice the "suggested" HP and still has not broken in half.
7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90(at) 6.4 GPH or 110(at) 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple conclusion.
8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can dream about.
9- BSFC of .45 ??? Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor that rich.
10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously throttled back.
11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for sure doen not need any more power.
12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # from ? I turn the motor alot higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter prop.
13- """ Totally Clueless""" Ya wanna bet..
And in closing all I can add is
" I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. "
Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????.
Ben Haas.
____________________________________________________________
[url=_blank]Top brands, low prices. Find the right air conditioner for you. Click Now![/url]
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randy(at)rjhebertassoc.co
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: Zenith701801-List Paul Lamar... |
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Great response Ben.
The internet gives “experts” a place to vent.
I usually ignore their tirades but, like you, they sometimes get my goat.
Randall J Hebert
701 plans building
N7701P Reserved
From: owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-zenith701801-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of n801bh(at)netzero.com
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 9:06 AM
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List Paul Lamar...
This posting that was on the internet was forwarded to me by several friends.......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the "801"
“This is an accident waiting to happen. The motor mount is incorrectly designed with un triangulated bays and bent tubes in tension and compression. The firewall forward weight is at least 450 pounds aluminum block or no aluminum block. No mention is made of beefing up the fuselage to take the vastly increased bending loads during landing and high G turns not to mention the increased bending loads on the wing spars. Zenairs are not over designed to begin with having very thin skins.
"The fuel burn is better then expected though and I am presently confirming the JPI 450 for accuracy. Cruise (at) 11,000 msl is producing 5.9 0 -6.3 gallons an hour."
The numbers quoted above shows a lack of understanding about engine engineering in general. The fuel burn quoted at 6 gallons an hour or 37 pounds an hour means the engine is only generating 83 HP giving it the benefit of a BSFC number of .45. In the unlikely event the BSFC is as low as .40 the HP then would be 93 HP at the absolute maximum. Now you have a 450 pound firewall forward weight putting out 93 HP at cruise.
Something is seriously wrong.
"The numbers I am shooting for are one pound of engine weight for each horsepower and a small total engine profile that will fit in most airframes."
What he is saying here is he things he is going to get 350 to 400 HP with a 1.43:1 PSRU ratio. With a 2600 RPM prop that is 3700 engine RPM. No way is that going to happen.
This person is totally clueless.
I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time.
Paul Lamar”
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know who this "person" is or what his qualifications, but..
I am compelled to answer his hatchet job on every topic.
My project is a one of a kind. I had no group, forum or any other source to go to during the design, and test flying of my experimental aircraft, so all the calculations, fabrications and installations are a one off and done to the best of my ability using past life experiences from fabricating stuff on race boats, cars and god only knows whatever I have modified in earlier years.
I built my plane, 3000 + hours of MY time. I didn't but a half built one, or a completed one to use a test bed for my powerplant. I have been flying for almost 30 years and owned several other planes.
My experimental plane has been flying for 5 years and 300 hours. Been flown in air from 97f to -37f. Has over 500 landing, been flown from JAC, 6430 msl to 18,000 feet, full throttle, !! over a couple of dozen times to test it for strength. Been flown in all other power settings to comfirm and quantify data. Tested to +3.5g's to - 2.5 g's. Flown to OSH and back... not trucked there as others seem to do to display their creations.
My responses..
1- When is this " accident" going to happen ??
2- The mount is designed by me using triangulation, just go to my web site and look at the pics.
3- There are NO bent tubes in my mount. there are intersecting angles but that happens on ALL mounts. At those intersections the area is beefed up internally. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean crap.
4- I know EXACTLY what it weighs. I don't guess like he seems to. And it is less then his "estimation"
5- Of course I beefed up the airframe as I built it. Just because I didn't state that on my website should not give him a pass at a free shot.
6- Zenith Aircraft seem to be an "issue" to him. Mine has twice the "suggested" HP and still has not broken in half.
7- The plane has so much power that at cruise I can throttle back to ALOT.. A 801 has alot of aerodynamic drag. I can run 90(at) 6.4 GPH or 110(at) 17 GPH. The plane hits a brick wall so why burn three times the fuel to go a little faster. If I wanted to go fast I would have built another type plane. You would think a guy like him could draw a simple conclusion.
8- I have probably built, raced and tested more engines hen he can dream about.
9- BSFC of .45 ??? Jeez. I would be embarrased to tune a motor that rich.
10- Nothing is " seriously wrong"............. I am seriously throttled back.
11- The motor is capable of 600 + Hp in different trim. ie, different redrive ratio, different intake design, etc. The motor will not gain any more weight by changing componants, so 350-400 Hp is a no brainer.. On MY plane I purposely stayed with 1.43-1 because it for sure doen not need any more power.
12- Where did he get the 3700 RPM # from ? I turn the motor alot higher then that on take off. Yeah, the prop is kinda noisy but nothing worse then what noise a seaplane makes with a large diameter prop.
13- """ Totally Clueless""" Ya wanna bet..
And in closing all I can add is
" I am really worried here. Probably one of the most dangerous airplanes I have seen in a very long time. "
Geez... Where was he 5 years and 300 hours ago ??????.
Ben Haas.
____________________________________________________________
Top brands, low prices. Find the right air conditioner for you. Click Now! | Quote: | | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Zenith701801-List |
0123456789
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edleg
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:56 am Post subject: Re: Zenith701801-List Paul Lamar... |
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PL has a lot of IDEAS and has even patented a lot of his IDEAS. In the Mazda rotary conversion world he is always beating up on SUCCESSFUL rotary conversions that have been flying for years with hundreds of hours in service. He seems to be the guy that knows everything, and if you don't do it HIS way, then you are a dingbat. I am not sure what he has actually BUILT that flys. Just ignore him like most of the rotary conversion world does.
Ben, btw... that a great looking 801 and I bet it sounds great. Flying from a high altitude airport you need all the hp you can get...
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ch701builder(at)yahoo.com
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| Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: Zenith701801-List Paul Lamar... |
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Hey Ben,
You also didn't mention that the "ORANGE" paint is also contributive to your results  !!!!
(still building away on my 701, nothing happens fast when your TDY so much (100days this year, so far))
(TDY = work related travel, for those of you that get the pleasure of staying home!!!)
Keith
CH701 - scratch
N 38.9940
W 105.1305
Alt. 9,100'
*********************************************************
From: edleg <ed_legault(at)yahoo.com>
To: zenith701801-list(at)matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 9:56:19 AM
Subject: Re: Zenith701801-List Paul Lamar...
--> Zenith701801-List message posted by: "edleg" <ed_legault(at)yahoo.com (ed_legault(at)yahoo.com)>
PL has a lot of IDEAS and has even patented a lot of his IDEAS. In the Mazda rotary conversion world he is always beating up on SUCCESSFUL rotary conversions that have been flying for years with hundreds of hours in service. He seems to be the guy that knows everything, and if you don't do it HIS way, then you are a dingbat. I am not sure what he has actually BUILT that flys. Just ignore him like most of the rotary conversion world does.
Ben, btw... that a great looking 801 and I bet it sounds great. Flying from a high altitude airport you need all the hp you can get...
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n801bh(at)netzero.com
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