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Firestar vs Ultrastar

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Dana

Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1047
Location: Connecticut, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:10 am Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

I flew my buddy's Firestar II for the first time yesterday.  I was expecting it to fly much like my UltraStar, oh, a little faster and heavier of course, but I was surprised at how different it was.  In particular I was surprised how very heavy the ailerons are.  I could get to really liking the FS, particularly the performance (even with his rather tired 503 compared to my Cuyuna), but I can also see why a number of people have described the US as being the best handling of the bunch.



 I'm now curious, where does the Firefly fit in in the handling spectrum?  Light like the US or more like the FS which it resembles?



 -Dana

 --

  Growing old is inevitable, but we can stay immature indefinitely.    [quote][b]

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

In my experience, the Firefly is lighter than the Firestar, but the FS's weren't exactly heavy! 



I've not flown a US, so maybe Mr. Hauck will have to chime in.



  -- Robert

 On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Dana Hague <d-m-hague(at)comcast.net (d-m-hague(at)comcast.net)> wrote:

[quote]  I flew my buddy's Firestar II for the first time yesterday.  I was expecting it to fly much like my UltraStar, oh, a little faster and heavier of course, but I was surprised at how different it was.  In particular I was surprised how very heavy the ailerons are.  I could get to really liking the FS, particularly the performance (even with his rather tired 503 compared to my Cuyuna), but I can also see why a number of people have described the US as being the best handling of the bunch.



 I'm now curious, where does the Firefly fit in in the handling spectrum?  Light like the US or more like the FS which it resembles?



 -Dana

 --

  Growing old is inevitable, but we can stay immature indefinitely.     	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

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[b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:12 am Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

 	  Quote: 	
		  

I'm now curious, where does the Firefly fit in in the handling spectrum?  
	


Light like the US or more like the FS which it resembles?

 	  Quote: 	
		  


	


Dana,



When my FireFly had the original long chord ailerons, they were almost 

impossible to deflect at cruise speeds.  It made cross country flying in 

rough air a terror and guaranteed a sore shoulder.  Made it impossible to 

land in gusty cross winds.



After reducing my ailerons to a nine inch chord and modifying the linkages, 

one can deflect the ailerons at any speed with two fingers.  No problems 

keeping the wings level in rough air.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Richard Pike

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar

[quote="Dana"]I flew my buddy's Firestar II for the first time yesterday.  I was expecting it to fly much like my UltraStar, oh, a little faster and heavier of course, but I was surprised at how different it was.  In particular I was surprised how very heavy the ailerons are.  I could get to really liking the FS, particularly the performance (even with his rather tired 503 compared to my Cuyuna), but I can also see why a number of people have described the US as being the best handling of the bunch.



 I'm now curious, where does the Firefly fit in in the handling spectrum?  Light like the US or more like the FS which it resembles?



 -Dana

 --

  Growing old is inevitable, but we can stay immature indefinitely.     	  Quote: 	
		  [b] 	




I agree that the stock FSII has heavy ailerons. Here is what we did to lighten them up:

http://www.bcchapel.org/pages/0003/FSII%20ailerons.html



Not sure about a Firefly, ask Beauford... he'll tell you, and it will be worth what ya paid for it...



Richard Pike

MKIII N420P (420ldPoops)

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

.---

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

Beauford, maybe bungees pulling BOTH ways on the stick?  

BB



On 16, Sep 2009, at 4:35 PM, Beauford T wrote:



[quote] 

 <beauford173(at)verizon.net>

 .---

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar

Possums did a mod to the ailerons on his Firestar,  The mods look good in the pictures he posted, I wonder if they lightened the aileron forces over the stock Firestar ??  It would be worth asking him.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 12:09 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

At 10:50 PM 9/16/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Possums did a mod to the ailerons on his Firestar,  The mods look 

good in the pictures he posted, I wonder if they lightened the 

aileron forces over the stock Firestar ??  It would be worth asking him.



Mike



--------

&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -


	




It's the drooped wing tips - I took off the ailerons

last time I did a major rehab.

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_________________
Possum

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:14 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

At 04:01 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  At 10:50 PM 9/16/2009, you wrote:

>

>

>Possums did a mod to the ailerons on his Firestar,  The mods look 

>good in the pictures he posted, I wonder if they lightened the 

>aileron forces over the stock Firestar ??  It would be worth asking him.

>

>Mike

>

>--------

>&quot;NO FEAR&quot; -


	




I thought they changed the ailerons to the shorter ones on the 

Firestar anyway?

I don't have any real good pictures of the "barn door" ailerons on my 

old Firestar

except for these. They were tough to push at cruse speed.

My new (if 10 years old is new) thing has shorter, tapered ailerons

from (10 inches down to 8 inches? I forget))

They work a lot better & faster.  I still have plenty of control a 

slow/landing speeds.

VG's help a lot.

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Possum

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: Firestar vs Ultrastar

Possums,



What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ?  The new plane looks real nice, I like the little changes you made.   Do you think the sharp trailing edges lighten the control forces from the standard round tube trailing edges we have ?



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:53 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

> What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ?  The new plane looks real 

nice, I like the little changes you made.   Do you think the sharp trailing 

edges lighten the control forces from the standard round tube trailing edges 

we have ?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Mike


	


Mike B/Gang:



I think the size of the ailerons on Kolbs are what load them up as speed 

builds.



When I built my mkIII I reduced the cord of the ailerons and the flaps, plus 

played with the mechanical advantage to help lighten stick pressure.



Homer built his airplanes to fly slow, not fast.  Larger ailerons help 

maintain roll control right through the mush and stall.  Something nice to 

have if we screw up.



My ailerons still load up above 65 or 70 mph, but I have learned to live 

with this condition.  It is not a safety factor, in my opinion.  If you want 

something with snappier roll rate, get a FF or SS.



john h

mkIII

Rock House, Oregon

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

elleryweld(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:55 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

I would imagine a sharp trailing edge would only reduce drag and look better 

    

   My two cents worth 

    

   Ellery in MAINE

 

 

 --

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

At 08:19 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com>



 Possums,



 What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ?  The new plane looks real nice, I like the little changes you made.   Do you think the sharp trailing edges lighten the control forces from the standard round tube trailing edges we have ?



 Mike 	


 As far a the sharp trailing edges, they are standard GA stuff from AircraftSpruce. 

 I just think they look cleaner than "Homer's" bumps. (Not there's anything

 wrong with the bumps) I don't think the edges do anything to the control forces, 

 just "cosmetic" like I said before "so I could fit in with the crowd".

  

 As you probably know, you can put "Graphics" on the boom 

 tube fairly cheap.This sounds stupid at first, but I used to 

 have "National Geographic[/b]" - in big black letters - on my old Firestar's boom 

 tube - just to keep the shrimp boats and others from calling the FAA every 

 time we landed on a sand bar or other questionable LZs. Read that

  "Just to keep me out of trouble" and it's probably illegal, immoral or 

 "somebody's having too much fun - so I should call the cops".



 But you would be surprised how little things like that make people go from 

 being upset that your having so much fun - to being  really interested in what 

 you are doing."Just stand right here next to the plane and we'll see if we 

 can get you in our next installment." I always got cameras strapped to my 

 head and in the plane anyway.I don't try to pretend to be  Adriel Heisey 

 or anybody like that and I'm pretty sure that National Geographic is 

 mostly "Free Lance" anyway.In fact I've got a series of shots of  the 

 Fla. State Patrol "posing" sitting in my plane after I had run out of gas on the 

 way back from Fla. and had to land somewhere I shouldn't have. I'm sure 

 they were just hoping that their Mom's would see them in paper/mag next 

 month -  if it got published (it didn't - but??).Heck who knows... I have been in the 

 paper and TV a few times - but not the times I would have wanted.



 

     [quote][b]

_________________
Possum

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:34 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

Maybe "Homeland Security"  would fit on a flat black MkIII ?BB

do not archive

On 17, Sep 2009, at 9:11 PM, possums wrote:

[quote] At 08:19 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  --> Kolb-List message posted by: "JetPilot" <orcabonita(at)hotmail.com (orcabonita(at)hotmail.com)>



 Possums,



 What is the " Geographic " on the tail boom ?  The new plane looks real nice, I like the little changes you made.   Do you think the sharp trailing edges lighten the control forces from the standard round tube trailing edges we have ?



 Mike 	


 As far a the sharp trailing edges, they are standard GA stuff from AircraftSpruce. 

 I just think they look cleaner than "Homer's" bumps. (Not there's anything

 wrong with the bumps) I don't think the edges do anything to the control forces, 

 just "cosmetic" like I said before "so I could fit in with the crowd".

  

 As you probably know, you can put "Graphics" on the boom 

 tube fairly cheap.This sounds stupid at first, but I used to 

 have "National Geographic" - in big black letters - on my old Firestar's boom 

 tube - just to keep the shrimp boats and others from calling the FAA every 

 time we landed on a sand bar or other questionable LZs. Read that

  "Just to keep me out of trouble" and it's probably illegal, immoral or 

 "somebody's having too much fun - so I should call the cops".



 But you would be surprised how little things like that make people go from 

 being upset that your having so much fun - to being  really interested in what 

 you are doing."Just stand right here next to the plane and we'll see if we 

 can get you in our next installment." I always got cameras strapped to my 

 head and in the plane anyway.I don't try to pretend to be  Adriel Heisey 

 or anybody like that and I'm pretty sure that National Geographic is 

 mostly "Free Lance" anyway.In fact I've got a series of shots of  the 

 Fla. State Patrol "posing" sitting in my plane after I had run out of gas on the 

 way back from Fla. and had to land somewhere I shouldn't have. I'm sure 

 they were just hoping that their Mom's would see them in paper/mag next 

 month -  if it got published (it didn't - but??).Heck who knows... I have been in the 

 paper and TV a few times - but not the times I would have wanted.



 

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

At 09:30 PM 9/17/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  Maybe "Homeland Security"  would fit on a flat black MkIII ?

 BB

 do not archive

 	


 Now you're thinking "outside the box".... not like a FNG!



 

 [quote]do not archive - I keep forgetting to do that  - sorry John.[b]

_________________
Possum

Possums

Joined: 03 Nov 2007
Posts: 247

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 7:04 pm Post subject: Firestar vs Ultrastar

 	  Quote: 	
		  >>

>>

>>Possums did a mod to the ailerons on his Firestar,  T

I thought they changed the ailerons to the shorter ones on the 

Firestar anyway?


	


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