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Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

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nukeflyboy

Joined: 05 Jan 2008
Posts: 162
Location: Granbury, TX

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:45 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

I have been reading the posts about engines hoses and wondering about what to get and what to leave out in Van's FWF kit.  Another RV-10 builder recently got the kit and I noticed that the hoses looked like teflon coated stainless steel braid.  I emailed Van's to find out and this is what they sent me.  Included is the current inventory of the kit.



start of Van's note:



1) The Fuel and Oil lines in the RV-10 Firewall Forward kits 

     are teflon coated with stainless steel braid. 

(2) The Vibration mount we sell are made in the USA by 

     "Vibration Isolation Products". 

(3)  I have the list of the RV-10 Firewall Forward kit below for 

      you. 





Best Regards 

Van's 

  FF-10 IO-540    F.WALL FWD.KIT IO-540       

  

  3.00  CT A-740 BLACK           PUSH PULL CABLE BLACK       

  2.00  DUCT CBT-5/8             COOLING BLAST TUBE          

  2.00  EA 4" DUCT HOSE CLAMP    4" HOSE CLAMP               

  1.00  EA CV HOSE 7545          BREATHER HOSE -540          

  6.00  EA GASKET 77611          BLO-PROOF EXHST GASKT       

  4.00  EA DYNA VI I(O)-540      VIB.ISO.   RV-10 ONLY       

  1.00  EA OIL COOLER 20006A     OIL COOLER I(O)-540         

  1.00  ES ALTERNATOR DELUXE     60A KIT W/OV PROTECT      

  1.00  FAB-360/540              FLTRD A/BOX-360 FI320       

  1.00  FF-1005                  BREATHER TUBE               

  1.00  IE VMP INSTALL KIT       FITTINGS/HOSES              

  1.00  PROP GOV MT P-860-3      I(O)-540 LYCOMING           

  1.00  VA-102                   FUEL PRES. HOSE 15.5        

  1.00  VA-133                   OIL PRESS. HOSE 27.25       

  1.00  VA-135                   OIL COOLER HOSE 16.5        

  1.00  VA-168                   SENDER MOUNT                

  1.00  VA-186                   OIL COOLER BOX ASSY.        

  1.00  VA-187                   4" FLANGED DUCT             

  1.00  VA-190                   OIL COOLER HOSE 27"         

  1.00  BAF-10-540               BAFFLE KIT IO-540           

  1.00  PT-035X1/4X4'            LO PRES-BRKE RES.TUBE       

  1.00  SS304-26GAX1/2X9         SCAT CLAMP !!SHARP!!        

  1.00  VENT SCAT 2X3'           RED 2" SCAT 3' LONG         

  1.00  VENT SCAT 2X6'           SCAT TUBE X 6 FT            

  1.00  VENT SCAT 4X16"          4" DIA. RED SCAT HOSE       

  1.00  EA DYNA BOLT I(O)-540    MOTOR MOUNT BOLT KIT        

  1.00  BAG 516                  RIVET AN426AD3-3.5          

  1.00  BAG 517                  RIVET AN426AD3-4            

  1.00  BAG 518                  RIVET AN426AD4-4            

  1.00  BAG 519                  RIVET AN426AD4-5            

  1.00  BAG 520                  MISC. AN BOLTS              

  1.00  BAG 521                  MISC. WASHERS               

  1.00  BAG 522-1                MISC. FITTINGS/CLAMPS       

  1.00  BAG 523-1                FITTINGS/MISC.              

  1.00  BAG 524                  MISC. CLAMPS                

  1.00  BAG 525-1                MISC/BEARINGS               

  1.00  BAG 526-1                CABIN HEAT SHUTTLE HW       

  1.00  PT-062X1/4X24"           HIGH PRESSURE               

  1.00  CT BLK THROTTLE 47.5     10 (I(O)-540)               

  1.00  CT BLUE VPROP 72.5       10 (I(O)-540)FWD GOV        

  1.00  CT RED VMIXTURE 51.5     10 (I(O)-540)               

  1.00  VA-182-PC KIT            THR/MIX BKT IO VERT         

  1.00  VA-189                   FUEL LINE IO-540 25.5       

  1.00  DOC FF-IO-540            TEXT/DWGS RV-10 F.FWD       

  1.00  EA EXH 10 I(O)-540       I(O)-540 VETTERMAN          

  1.00  VA-138                         FUEL SUPPLY HOSE 14.0       



end of Van's note



First of all it is good to see that they have switched to teflon/SS hoses for the fuel and oil lines.  



I am not familiar with the "Vibration Isolation Products" engine mount.  Is anyone?  It is a division of Pacific Molded Technologies in California.  Do you recommend that I stick with Lord Mounts?



So far it looks like I will stick with Van's hoses and just about everything else but will drop a couple items.  I have another source for a Plane Power alternator so I will drop it.  (They are good alternators and I recommend that you use them.)  I bought an AirFlow oil cooler from Alex and will drop it from the kit.  I still need to make up my mind on the engine mounts and throttle quadrant.



Any other thoughts?

_________________
Dave Moore
RV-6 built and sold
RV-10 built and flying

msausen

Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 559
Location: Appleton, WI USA

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:20 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

While they may be SS covered Teflon, I'm betting that they are not fire sleeved so take that into account when comparing aftermarkets with Van's.



Michael



--

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:56 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

You need to make sure that the SS hoses have the molded file sleeve as part

of the hose when there made.  It cost a bit more but very important in the

fwf area for all hoses that pass fluids thru then. I would also make the MAP

hose SS just to make all hoses the same.  This is what I did on our Saratoga

and it was worth the cost.



John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider

--

Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

1). You want Teflon CORE hoses, not Teflon coated hoses. If the core is still rubber, like Aeroquip 303 has, they are only good for 5-7 years. 

 2)You want Silicone firesleeve hoses, not teflon coated. As others have said, all hoses forward of the firewall that carry fuel or oil should be firesleeved. External firesleeving almost doubles the diameter and doesn't look very good as soon as it ages some. Integral firesleeving is a silicone rubber compound, molded over the stainless braid, which both gives abrasion protection, as well as fire protection.

 Yes, they cost about 15% more. It is well worth it, because they will last at least the life of the engine.

Parker 124J is one of the common varieties.

Kelly



On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 9:43 AM, nukeflyboy <flymoore(at)charter.net (flymoore(at)charter.net)> wrote:

 [quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "nukeflyboy" <flymoore(at)charter.net (flymoore(at)charter.net)>

  

 I have been reading the posts about engines hoses and wondering about what to get and what to leave out in Van's FWF kit.  Another RV-10 builder recently got the kit and I noticed that the hoses looked like teflon coated stainless steel braid.  I emailed Van's to find out and this is what they sent me.  Included is the current inventory of the kit.

  

 start of Van's note:

 

 1) The Fuel and Oil lines in the RV-10 Firewall Forward kits

      are teflon coated with stainless steel braid.

 

 

 

 [b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

AirMike

Joined: 27 Feb 2007
Posts: 514
Location: Nevada

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

I am not sure if it is in the FWF kit, but I have advocated several times that you can spend a lot of time and money on hoses and eyeball fittings.



But the big gorilla in the room (or on the firewall) is the heater valve. I strongly advocate using a SS valve. Just read this piece.



http://www.planeinnovations.com/new%20heater.htm



For about $100 you can trade out the Van's valve for a real fireproof valve of very high quality

_________________
See you OSH '18
Q/B - sold.

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

I'll second that. I have a pair and there is no comparison in the quality of 

the planeinnovations heater valves and the standard Van's. The valves are in 

the fusellage kit- remove them from that order and use the money on SS, it 

is worth whatever difference in price there may be.

Pascal

--------------------------------------------------

From: "AirMike" <Mikeabel(at)Pacbell.net>

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 6:25 PM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I am not sure if it is in the FWF kit, but I have advocated several times 

 that you can spend a lot of time and money on hoses and eyeball fittings.



 But the big gorilla in the room (or on the firewall) is the heater valve. 

 I strongly advocate using a SS valve. Just read this piece.



 http://www.planeinnovations.com/new%20heater.htm



 For about $100 you can trade out the Van's valve for a real fireproof 

 valve of very high quality



 --------

 OSH '10 or Bust

 Q/B Kit - phase 1





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 62508#262508

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:19 pm Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

Another option is a fire bottle , dumping Halon for and aft of the baffling

at pilot activation. 

SEE http://www.stroudsafety.com/HalonSystems.html



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johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:28 pm Post subject: Re: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

Am I missing something? Just cut off the fuel. The fire should go out without fuel.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

tsts4

Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 167
Location: Tampa, FL

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 5:01 am Post subject: Re: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

Just to play devil's advocate, what if you can't shut the fuel off--you're knocked out or something.  Hypothetically, having maximum protection FWF might buy you or some bystander time to extract you from the cabin before getting cooked.

_________________
Todd Stovall
aka "Auburntsts" on EAA and VAF
RV-10 N728TT -- Flying

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:20 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

If the fuel cannot be shutoff then the fire is already in the tunnel. An

Andair fuel selector turned off should stop feeding the flames and a fire

bottle ought to cool everything ; without oxygen the fire should be

suppressed. Race cars are required to have fire suppression systems and are

more susceptible to fires than our aircraft. In addition Part 21 aircraft

are required to have fire detection and fire suppression systems. Check the

Boeings. My A&P course had an extensive class on fire detection/fire

suppression systems for Part 21 aircraft. My Glastar has a temperature

sensor in the Carburetor box and inlet spray and a spray nozzle over the

cylinders. The 10 has a sprayer on top of the cylinders and another between

the firewall and the rear baffling. 



--

gengrumpy(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

Another alternative is a small, spring loaded door in the top of the  

tunnel just forward of the fuel valve.



Poke the nozzle of on-board extinguisher through the opening and let  

'er rip.



$64 question is whether or not to use halon or the standard gasoline  

ABC extinguisher.



Halon will kill you dead as a door nail if you breathe it.



grumpy



do not archive



On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:52 AM, David McNeill wrote:



[quote] 



 If the fuel cannot be shutoff then the fire is already in the  

 tunnel. An

 Andair fuel selector turned off should stop feeding the flames and a  

 fire

 bottle ought to cool everything ; without oxygen the fire should be

 suppressed. Race cars are required to have fire suppression systems  

 and are

 more susceptible to fires than our aircraft. In addition Part 21  

 aircraft

 are required to have fire detection and fire suppression systems.  

 Check the

 Boeings. My A&P course had an extensive class on fire detection/fire

 suppression systems for Part 21 aircraft. My Glastar has a temperature

 sensor in the Carburetor box and inlet spray and a spray nozzle over  

 the

 cylinders. The 10 has a sprayer on top of the cylinders and another  

 between

 the firewall and the rear baffling.



 --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:43 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

Mine is Halon but the gas goes forward of the firewall. You definetly do not

want to discharge Halon in the cabin without a lot of air flow in and out. 



--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:35 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

Aviation consumer news did a report on this. Basically Halon is your best 

option. ABC extinguisher will ultimately cause more damage than Halon.

They note about inhaling Halon- "The FAA notes- The toxic effects of a 

typical aircraft seat fire, for example, far outweigh the potential toxic 

effects of discharging a Halon fire extinquisher". I take away two things 

from this- don't allow smoking in the plane, and if the seat is on fire to 

care what Halon will do.. all joking aside.. the point really is that one 

wants to keep the fire out of the cabin, smoke alone will do far more than 

anything the Halon could do.. one can spray  a little on a smaller fire and 

use vents to get air, but with smoke from a fire there is no only inhaling a 

little bit.  This goes back to my seconding that having Stainless steel for 

a vent is a great option. If the fire goes through the weakest link, SS vent 

or RTV than the smoke will hit you probably before any fire, but if you have 

a cheap aluminum vent the fire may very well start coming in and burning 

everything on the cabin side than cause lots of smoke- "everything" since 

the vents go forward and back in the cabin.

There really isn't any great option when one has a fire, but it sure helps 

to keep any openings sealed as best as possible. There is the discussion 

about "must have" firesleeves on the hoses that runs another $200 plus above 

the stock Van's hoses, if one is going to go to that extent, spend the $100 

and do your best to keep the fire out a few seconds more.. it really could 

be the difference between you talking about it or everyone else talking 

about it in your memory..

So what did ACS say about the Halon? since that was the question- basically 

ABC (dry-chemical) have too much to be desired among the issues- 

vision-limiting and respiratory effects.

They conclude with "on a really bad day you have one, however, you'll want 

to reach for a Halon extinquisher while aiming for the nearest runway."



Referenced December 2008 edition.



Pascal



--------------------------------------------------

From: "Miller John" <gengrumpy(at)aol.com>

Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:47 AM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: Re: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including 

hoses)



[quote] 



 Another alternative is a small, spring loaded door in the top of the 

 tunnel just forward of the fuel valve.



 Poke the nozzle of on-board extinguisher through the opening and let  'er 

 rip.



 $64 question is whether or not to use halon or the standard gasoline  ABC 

 extinguisher.



 Halon will kill you dead as a door nail if you breathe it.



 grumpy



 do not archive



 On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:52 AM, David McNeill wrote:



> 

>

> If the fuel cannot be shutoff then the fire is already in the  tunnel. An

> Andair fuel selector turned off should stop feeding the flames and a 

> fire

> bottle ought to cool everything ; without oxygen the fire should be

> suppressed. Race cars are required to have fire suppression systems  and 

> are

> more susceptible to fires than our aircraft. In addition Part 21 

> aircraft

> are required to have fire detection and fire suppression systems.  Check 

> the

> Boeings. My A&P course had an extensive class on fire detection/fire

> suppression systems for Part 21 aircraft. My Glastar has a temperature

> sensor in the Carburetor box and inlet spray and a spray nozzle over  the

> cylinders. The 10 has a sprayer on top of the cylinders and another 

> between

> the firewall and the rear baffling.

>

> --

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 11:57 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

I also carry a couple of disposable smoke hoods in addition the fire bottle;

I don't know whether I would be able to deploy them in time. My plan was to

be so prepared that the occasion to use would not arise. 



--

jcumins(at)jcis.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

With over 5k hours and 13 years flying on the USAF largest cargo plane as a

flight engineer. I am very familure and trained on the Halon fire

extinguisher systems.  The C-5 had 24 fire bottles of halon in the cargo

compartment. 2 very large 150 lb portable extinguishers in the cargo

compartment and 14 5 lb portable bottles throughout the plane also.  Halon

is one of the best fire fighting products available and is totally

survivable by the person fighting the fire.  It will not kill you unless you

directly inhale it straight from the extinguisher. I have had a in-flight

fire none night about 3am over the gulf next to Patia Beach Thailand.  A

light assembly in the flight engineer panel electrical connector started to

melt the caught fire.  So we blasted it with both the large extinguishers

from the cargo compartment.  Not knowing what was burning, we thought to

error on the large side and use both extinguishers and the large ones.  We

lowered the flight engineer insterment panel down and blasted.  Once the

smoke cleared we felt a bit surprised to see it was a very small fire, but

it put out a tone of very black smoke. The cooling fan for the Engineer

panel exits into the cargo compartment and it filled it with black smoke in

minutes.  Boy was that a fun night.  We dumped 200,000 lbs of jet fuel in

the bay and landed back at Utapow AB replaced the light assembly, refueled

and departed for Saudi.



If I was to install a extinguishing system in my -10 it would be a Halon

system, no questions asked.



Just my 2 cents work and a war story.        



John G. Cumins

President

 

JC'S Interactive Systems

2499 B1 Martin Rd

Fairfield Ca 94533

707-425-7100

707-425-7576 Fax

 

Your Total Technology Solution Provider

--

rv10builder(at)verizon.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)

I've seen mention of the MAP hose (VA-119) yet that is not part of the Van's 

list for the FWF kit.

Have people been adding that to their lists?

Thx

Pascal

--------------------------------------------------

From: "John Cumins" <jcumins(at)jcis.net>

Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2009 10:48 AM

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: Info and Question on Van's FWF Kit (including hoses)



[quote] 



 You need to make sure that the SS hoses have the molded file sleeve as 

 part

 of the hose when there made.  It cost a bit more but very important in the

 fwf area for all hoses that pass fluids thru then. I would also make the 

 MAP

 hose SS just to make all hoses the same.  This is what I did on our 

 Saratoga

 and it was worth the cost.



 John G. Cumins

 President



 JC'S Interactive Systems

 2499 B1 Martin Rd

 Fairfield Ca 94533

 707-425-7100

 707-425-7576 Fax



 Your Total Technology Solution Provider

 --

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