 |
Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
 Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
 |
|
I just happened to run across this on another group:
"The weight of the 582 plus liquids wound up being somewhat more than
the entire Jab installation (about three pounds) with no change in W/
B. I figure I lost a few pounds and gained 24 hp."
This was found on TeamKitfox (or whatever they call themselves), and
it was from a guy who pulled his 582 and installed a Jab 2200. I'm
not trying to sell Jabs, just trying to keep all our minds open.
Maybe the ENGINE doesn't weigh as much as a Jabiru, but you can't RUN
the engine without all the associated goodies. : )
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 770.6 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~230 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
do not archive
On Sep 10, 2009, at 8:39 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
| Quote: | Lynn, I will make a set of those spacers if I don't find them in
the misc. fasteners I have left over. I think you are wrong on the
Rotax 582 weight. I don't think it is anywhere near 132#. I have
seen a weight on it but it escapes my memory right now. Your right,
the 4" taller gear can't have much effect on the castor angle. I
don't think my bush gear with 21"x12"x8" inch tires and tubes
weighs much less than your landing gear. Those tires and tubes are
heavy.
Pat Reilly
Mod 3 582 Rebuild
Rockford, IL
On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 8:16 AM, Lynn Matteson <lynnmatt(at)jps.net>
wrote:
For some reason I thought that the 582 was pretty close to the 132
(advertised) lbs of the Jabiru, but I could be wrong. Oh,oh, I see
another engine-weight battle looming on the horizon. : )
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
Hey Lynn - Call me stupid but the 582 is liquid cooled but a 2-stroker, and
the Jab is air-cooled and a 4-stroker, so the 582 "wet" has the weight of
the coolant and no oil and the Jab wet has the weight of the engine oil and
no coolant. I don't know what the liquid capacities are but doesn't that
kind of balance out? In fact I would think the oil is heavier?
| Quote: | From an open, but somewhat confused, mind...
Bob Brennan - N717GB
|
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
--
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 280
Location: Bellevue WA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:51 am Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
On Wed, September 16, 2009 6:47 am, Bob Brennan wrote:
| Quote: | Hey Lynn - Call me stupid but the 582 is liquid cooled but a 2-stroker, and
the Jab is air-cooled and a 4-stroker, so the 582 "wet" has the weight of
the coolant and no oil
|
No oil? What about the tankful of two stroke oil and the few extra bottles in the
cockpit?
| Quote: | and the Jab wet has the weight of the engine oil and
no coolant. I don't know what the liquid capacities are but doesn't that
kind of balance out? In fact I would think the oil is heavier?
|
You're sure right about the total installed engine weight comparison - bare engine
weight is only part of the story. And that varies considerably according to builder's
choices.
--
Paul A. Franz
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
"It is the madness of folly, to expect mercy from those who have refused
to do justice; and even mercy, where conquest is the object, is only a
trick of war; the cunning of the fox is as murderous as the violence of
the wolf."
-- Thomas Paine
"If individuals be not influenced by moral principles; it is in vain
to look for public virtue; it is, therefore, the duty of legislators
to enforce, both by precept and example, the utility, as well as the
necessity of a strict adherence to the rules of distributive justice."
-- James Madison, response to Washington's first Inaugural address, 1789
If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what
it costs when it's free!
-- P.J. O'Rourke
"No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand,
which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United
States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of
an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some
token of providential agency."
-- George Washington, First Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789
Speaking Out Against Socialized Medicine
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/lf3kbd>
-- Ronald Reagan
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Paul A. Franz, P.E.
Registration/Aircraft - N14UW/Merlin GT
Engine/Prop - Rotax 914/NSI CAP
Bellevue WA
425.241.1618 Cell
425.440.9505 Office |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
matronics(at)bob.brennan.
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:17 am Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
| Quote: | No oil? What about the tankful of two stroke oil and the few extra bottles
in the
|
cockpit?
Thanks Paul, how could I forget that!! But hang on a sec... since the oil is
added to the gas and consumed, unlike the recirculating oil or coolant in
the engine itself, I would add that oil to the weight of the gas to be used
in flight, not to the "wet" weight of the engine. After all, the weight of
the fuel used is in gph, and in a 2-stroke the oil is part of the "g" in gph
right? Presumably the Jab has to carry the same extra volume of gas that the
582 does in oil, right? And yes I know the gph numbers differ from 2-stroke
to 4-stroke, but we're talking about the "wet" weight of an airplane, not
including consumables and passengers and/or extra oil or tools or whatever
one like to carry aboard.
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
--
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:38 am Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
I guess I'd have to say forget the number of strokes and concentrate
on the coolant, primarily. And the Jab only carries 2.3 qts. of oil.
But weight....I mean wait....if we are talking "empty weight" you
don't count the oil, right? Yeah, right, show me somebody who
doesn't weigh his plane with the oil in it, and I'll show you a damn
fool! I can see not having any fuel aboard...I've flown a few flights
w/o fuel (well, not much anyway), but the engine always has oil in
it, right? Wrong! If the 2-stroker runs out of fuel, he's also out of
oil, isn't he? BZZZZZZZT! Wrong again, Lynn. How about the injected 2-
strokes...they HAVE to carry oil even when out of fuel, right?
Lynn Matteson (also confused about the "empty weight" moniker)
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 770.6 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~230 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 16, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Bob Brennan wrote:
[quote]
<matronics(at)bob.brennan.name>
Hey Lynn - Call me stupid but the 582 is liquid cooled but a 2-
stroker, and
the Jab is air-cooled and a 4-stroker, so the 582 "wet" has the
weight of
the coolant and no oil and the Jab wet has the weight of the engine
oil and
no coolant. I don't know what the liquid capacities are but doesn't
that
kind of balance out? In fact I would think the oil is heavier?
> From an open, but somewhat confused, mind...
Bob Brennan - N717GB
ELSA Repairman, inspection rated
1991 UK Model 2 ELSA Kitfox taildragger
Rotax 582 with 3 blade GSC prop
Wrightsville Pa
--
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Guy Buchanan
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 1204
Location: Ramona, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:23 am Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
At 06:00 AM 9/16/2009, you wrote:
| Quote: | "The weight of the 582 plus liquids wound up being somewhat more than
the entire Jab installation (about three pounds) with no change in
W/ B. I figure I lost a few pounds and gained 24 hp."
|
Lynn,
I think Michel V. decided that the 2200 was a direct
replacement for his 582. I vaguely remember he claimed little
performance difference between the two. I have noticed that my 582
seems to perform way beyond its "65 horsepower" in company with Cubs
and Rans and the like. I suspect the 3:1 gearbox turning a big prop
has a lot to do with it, but have never bothered to work it out. I
think the 912 benefits from this effect as well, as it seems to
perform beyond its rated horsepower too.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Guy Buchanan
Deceased K-IV 1200
A glider pilot too. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thesupe(at)hotmail.com
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
I had a 582 in my Avid MK IV and replaced it with a 2200 Jabiru. Take off performance was no better than the 582 (I agree with you on turning a big slow prop) I did see an improvement in the cruise speed of the Jabiru though. About 15 MPH faster with the Jab. The plane gained about 15-20 lbs C but not all of that was due to the engine. I do feel a bit more comfortable with the four stroke C as where I fly is mostly trees and lakes. I found a 912 80 HP Rotax for my Kitfox 4 project. It is a bit heavier than the Jabiru C and does turn high RPMs C but I think it might be better suited to our planes than the Jabiru. I think the Jabiru is somwhat better suited to a slick C higher speed plane like a Sonex. In reality though C I don't have much real experience with the 912s yet so my opinion might change after I start flying the Kitfox 4. Jim Chuk Avids C Kitfox 4 northern Mn
| Quote: | Date: Wed C 16 Sep 2009 09:17:25 -0700
To: kitfox-list(at)matronics.com
From: bnn(at)nethere.com
Subject: Re: Kitfox-List: Regarding the 582 weight....
--> Kitfox-List message posted by: Guy Buchanan <bnn(at)nethere.com>
At 06:00 AM 9/16/2009 C you wrote:
>"The weight of the 582 plus liquids wound up being somewhat more than
>the entire Jab installation (about three pounds) with no change in
>W/ B. I figure I lost a few pounds and gained 24 hp."
Lynn C
I think Michel V. decided that the 2200 was a direct
replacement for his 582. I vaguely remember he claimed little
performance difference between the two. I have noticed that my 582
seems to perform way beyond its "65 horsepower" in company with Cubs
and Rans and the like. I suspect the 3:1 gearbox turning a big prop
has a lot to do with it C but have never bothered to work it out. I
think the 912 benefits from this effect as well C as it seems to
perform beyond its rated horsepower too.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego C CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
>======================
|
>============
| Quote: |
Bing brings you health info from trusted sources. Try it now! |
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lynn Matteson
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 2778
Location: Grass Lake, Michigan
|
| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
Nail....hit.....head, Guy. I think the gearbox and 3 big blades is
ALL of the equation, for both the 2-strokes and the 912 variants. I
think it all comes down to a preference as to whether one likes to
get off the ground quick and rev a lot higher in cruise, or get off
the ground a bit slower and run half the revs at cruise.
Lynn Matteson
Kitfox IV Speedster, taildragger
Jabiru 2200, #2062, 770.6 hrs
Countdown to 1000 hrs~230 to go
Sensenich 62"x46" Wood prop
Electroair direct-fire ignition system
Rotec TBI-40 injection
Status: flying
On Sep 16, 2009, at 12:17 PM, Guy Buchanan wrote:
| Quote: |
At 06:00 AM 9/16/2009, you wrote:
> "The weight of the 582 plus liquids wound up being somewhat more than
> the entire Jab installation (about three pounds) with no change in
> W/ B. I figure I lost a few pounds and gained 24 hp."
Lynn,
I think Michel V. decided that the 2200 was a direct
replacement for his 582. I vaguely remember he claimed little
performance difference between the two. I have noticed that my 582
seems to perform way beyond its "65 horsepower" in company with
Cubs and Rans and the like. I suspect the 3:1 gearbox turning a big
prop has a lot to do with it, but have never bothered to work it
out. I think the 912 benefits from this effect as well, as it seems
to perform beyond its rated horsepower too.
Guy Buchanan
San Diego, CA
K-IV 1200 / 582-C / Warp / 400 hrs. and counting
|
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Lynn
Kitfox IV-Jabiru 2200
N369LM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Float Flyr
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 2704
Location: Campbellton, Newfoundland
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:35 pm Post subject: Regarding the 582 weight.... |
|
|
The 582 is also a two cylinder and carries a PSRU. The radiators and associated plumbing also have a weight penalty. For all that for 64 hp the 582 is pretty good bang for the buck.
As for oil being heavier... Doesn't oil float on water and isn't antifreeze heavier than water?
Noel
--
| | - The Matronics Kitfox-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kitfox-List |
|
_________________
Noel Loveys
Kitfox III-A
Aerocet 1100 Floats |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
Get Email Distribution Too!
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
