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russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: gyros

BTW, gyrocopters do NOT  "fall like a rock" without power. They  

autorotate down to a smooth landing.

Ken Brock used to cut power, prop stopped, at about 500' & autorotate  

down to a smooth, very soft landing. Nothing  bent, he waved & walked  

away from it. Repeatedly! -- part of his airshow routine. (In a  

Bensen gyrocopter)

Helicopters can of course autorotate to a fairly soft landing  if  

they have enough altitude to get everything done in time.

"Fall like a rock"? I don't think so.

Russ K

do not archive

On Sep 22, 2009, at 12:39 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 In almost all airplanes, stopping the prop completely reduces drag  

 and increases glide.   A windmilling prop is much worse than a  

 stopped one if you are trying to glide.   As John H says, a  

 helicopter would fall out of the air if this were not true.  A  

 gyrocopter just has a big windmilling prop on the top of it, no  

 power to it at all, and if it were to ever stop in the air the  

 gyrocopter would fall like a rock.

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:21 am Post subject: Re: gyros

...

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

Last edited by JetPilot on Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:24 am Post subject: gyros

Correct, Russ!  EVERY landing I do in my gyro is softer than a kittens

paw, and EVERY one is done with the engine at idle.  I've done them

from as high as 1500 feet AGL (no reason it couldn't be higher), and

as low as 30 feet...  chop the power, lean into it slowly, maintaining

best-glide speed, then flare.  Couldn't be simpler.  My roll-out is

usually between 10 and 20 feet.

But, to be fair, I think he was speaking theoretically.  Yes, if my

rotor was suddenly frozen by a futuristic stasis ray gun, the gyro

would drop like a rock.  But, that would be like saying, if a fixed

wing aircraft has its wing suddenly vaporized, it would fall like a

rock.  Yep.  The wing, to rotor, are providing the lift for the

craft... without that lift, they are both toast.

  -- Robert  (flying a Gyrobee as well as a Kolb)

On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:36 PM, russ kinne <russkinne(at)mac.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 BTW, gyrocopters do NOT  "fall like a rock" without power. They autorotate

 down to a smooth landing.

 Ken Brock used to cut power, prop stopped, at about 500' & autorotate down

 to a smooth, very soft landing. Nothing  bent, he waved & walked away from

 it. Repeatedly! -- part of his airshow routine. (In a Bensen gyrocopter)

 Helicopters can of course autorotate to a fairly soft landing  if they have

 enough altitude to get everything done in time.

 "Fall like a rock"? I don't think so.

 Russ K

 do not archive

 On Sep 22, 2009, at 12:39 PM, JetPilot wrote:

> 

>

> In almost all airplanes, stopping the prop completely reduces drag and

> increases glide.   A windmilling prop is much worse than a stopped one if

> you are trying to glide.   As John H says, a helicopter would fall out of

> the air if this were not true.  A gyrocopter just has a big windmilling prop

> on the top of it, no power to it at all, and if it were to ever stop in the

> air the gyrocopter would fall like a rock.

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

russkinne(at)mac.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject: gyros

Mike

I apologise for not understanding your post correctly; but I'm hardly  

'vindictive' or 'desperate', I don't need 'revenge' and  I hope I'm  

not 'pathetic'

Please accept my sincere apology.

Russ K



On Sep 22, 2009, at 2:21 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Russ,



 In your jubilation and glee when you thought you had found that I  

 made a mistake, you were in such a hurry to start a new thread and  

 point out that I had made an a mistake that you failed to read what  

 I posted and understand it.   I said if the BIG windmilling prop on  

 TOP of the gyrocopter ever stopped - Meaning the ROTOR, the  

 gyrocopter would fall like a rock, which is very true.



 You sure are desperate to find something wrong with something I  

 have posted, it took you only a couple minutes for you to start a  

 new thread on where you thought I made a mistake.    Funny, with  

 all the incorrect and bad information posted on this forum, you  

 have only started a new thread on the subject when you thought I  

 said something wrong...   Get over your vindictiveness and need to  

 get revenge , its pathetic.



 Mike



 --------

 &quot;NO FEAR&quot; -  If you have no fear you did not go as fast  

 as you could have !!!



 Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 64350#264350

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: gyros

> BTW, gyrocopters do NOT  "fall like a rock" without power. They

 	  Quote: 	
		   autorotate down to a smooth landing.

 > Helicopters can of course autorotate to a fairly soft landing  if
	


 	  Quote: 	
		   they have enough altitude to get everything done in time.

 "Fall like a rock"? I don't think so.

 Russ K


	




Russ K/Gang:



Gyros are right behind rocks when they lose power.  They are in contant 

autorotation when flying, with or without a source of thrust.



Helicopters feel like they are falling out of the sky in autorotation, 

especially a 180 degree autorotation.  Even normal approaches to land a 

steep compared to fixed wing aircraft.  Guess that is one reason I have 

always been comfortable flying Kolbs.



Helicopters used to have a dead man's curve, when I was flying them many 

years ago, published in the operational manual.  This was the 

airspeed/altitude that an autorotation would probably not be sucessful.



john h

mkIII

Rock House, Oregon

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: gyros

> Correct, Russ!  EVERY landing I do in my gyro is softer than a kittens

 	  Quote: 	
		   paw, and EVERY one is done with the engine at idle.  I've done them

 from as high as 1500 feet AGL (no reason it couldn't be higher), and

 as low as 30 feet...  chop the power, lean into it slowly, maintaining

 best-glide speed, then flare.  Couldn't be simpler.  My roll-out is

 usually between 10 and 20 feet.

 >
	


 	  Quote: 	
		    -- Robert  (flying a Gyrobee as well as a Kolb)


	


Robert L/Gang:



Of course your landing is always done with forward airspeed when the engine 

is at idle.  If not, it loses rotor rpm quickly.



Also, the gyro is never out of autorotation from take off to landing, with 

out without power.



Helicopters do quite well in autorotation, especially with forward airspeed. 

They'll also autorotate sideways and aft, but will probably be hard on the 

skids that way.



Hovering autorotations are a piece of cake in Army helicopters in ground 

effect, but sucessful higher hovering autorotations depend on load and main 

rotor enertia.



john h

mkIII

Rock House, Oregon



DO NOT ARCHIVE

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: gyros

[quote="russkinne(at)mac.com"]Mike

I apologise for not understanding your post correctly; but I'm hardly  

'vindictive' or 'desperate', I don't need 'revenge' and  I hope I'm  

not 'pathetic'

Please accept my sincere apology.

Russ K



On Sep 22, 2009, at 2:21 PM, JetPilot wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   



	




Russ,



I misjudged your intentions, and I owe you the apology.  I have removed my previous post to you from the forum.  Given what has gone on here on the list recently, I was to quick to jump in with a harsh reply.   Thanks for the nice response.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

grantr

Joined: 12 Sep 2007
Posts: 217

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Re: gyros

 	  Quote: 	
		  Of course your landing is always done with forward airspeed when the engine 

is at idle. If not, it loses rotor rpm quickly. 



	




John,



A gyro does not lose rotor rpm at zero airspeed. The rotor self regulates its rpm unlike a helicopter.



We need forward speed to add energy to the rotor to arrest the sink rate. Similar to a fixed wing you can land right above stall speed but you don't have energy to flair and arrest the sink rate. 

A vertical landing is possible  in a gyro but the sink rate is too high for a good landing.

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:16 am Post subject: gyros

When I got my checkride in a Hughes 269 my examiner announced  

inflight that I had passed and asked for the stick back.

He brought it to a hover at about 2000' feet and switched off the  

key.  He lowered the collective and we went straight down in a vertical

descent, level with the horizon.  All you could hear was the whirl of  

the blades.  At maybe 50' from the ground he went forward cyclic

to get some excess rotor rpm and touched it down at a gentle walk.   

Les Hembel of SC Helicopters.  I'm thankful to have flown with a legend.

Even the Ft Rucker ex flight instructors on the faculty looked up to  

this guy even though he was only about 5' tall.

-good thing the country boy mechs he had set the stops right. They  

were good too.  They could put together a frame up

machine from only a dataplate and it would run much smoother than a  

factory new ship.

BB

do not archive

On 28, Sep 2009, at 1:42 PM, grantr wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <grant_richardson25(at)yahoo.com>

> Of course your landing is always done with forward airspeed when  

> the engine

> is at idle. If not, it loses rotor rpm quickly.

 John,

 A gyro does not loose rotor rpm at zero airspeed. The rotor self  

 regulates its rpm unlike a helicopter.

 We need forward speed to add energy to the rotor to arrest the sink  

 rate. Similar to a fixed wing you can land right above stall speed  

 but you don't have energy to flair and arrest the sink rate.

 A vertical landing is possible  in a gyro but the sink rate is too  

 high for a good landing.

 Read this topic online here:

 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 65348#265348

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:08 am Post subject: gyros

He brought it to a hover at about 2000' feet and switched off the

key.  >>



Hi Robert,



having been interested in gyrocoptors ever since Bensen when  gyros became 

`approved` over here I booked a ride.



The instructor took us off pretty sharply and threw it around a bit and then 

brought it to a hover at about 1000 ft. I watched the ASI as the speed 

decayed and then we began to fly backwards. Its a funny feeling to a 

`normal` pilot to watch the ground retreating in front of you. He then said 

"I expect you are wondering what would happen if the engine stopped now` 

and switched off.  Except that it got quiet it was a non event. He put the 

nose down and we descended fairly rapidly but not excessively so, flared and 

landed right on the numbers. Very nice.

We then took off and he flew a chicane at about 5 feet all the way along a 

series of traffic cones. Super.

The approval was withdrawn after a series of accidents shortly afterwards so 

I never pursued that particular branch of flying.  New models are now back 

on the `approved `list so there are quite a few about but not for me.



Cheer



Pat

rlaird

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 373
Location: Houston

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:47 am Post subject: gyros

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:08 AM, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 The approval was withdrawn after a series of accidents shortly afterwards so I never pursued that particular branch of flying.  New models are now back on the `approved `list so there are quite a few about but not for me.

  	
 

The gyro community collectively had an epiphany in the not too distant past, whereas they realized that by making gyro's truly center-line-thrust, and by installing a horizontal stabilizer, the safety improvement was radical and game-changing.  (Not 100% of the gyro enthusiasts agree with these two changes, but the aerodynamics are irrefutable.)  The other change has been the improving training environment.  Combined, these changes convinced me it was time to complement my fixed-wing flying, and I'm enjoying every moment.  The thing I love best is my flight stability even in thermally, gusty, rough air -- very common in Texas.  In my Kolb, I have to fight the plane, thrashing the stick around, dancing with my feet, to keep wings, well, almost level -- not much fun -- whereas in the gyro, in the same conditions, I notice the air is a bit more blustery, and when a gust hits the side of my empennage I might get a bit of yaw, but I can still fly hands and feet off!  That is a huge difference in comfort and the feeling of stability....  much more enjoyable.  And the turns are wicked! 

 



  -- Robert



  [quote][b]

_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Laird
formerly: MkIIIc w/ 912ULS & Gyrobee
current: Autogyro Cavalon w/ 914ULS
Houston, TX area
http://www.Texas-Flyer.com

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:54 am Post subject: gyros

That is a huge difference in comfort and the  feeling of stability....  much

more enjoyable.  And the turns are  wicked!>>

  

 Hi Robert,

  

 The improved `gust resistance` is due to the high  wing loading I assume.  Re turns.  The instructor I flew with when he  finished his slalom of the traffic cones said `Lets go across the field and  attack that hangar. We got clearance and dashed across the field, over the main  runway, at about 20 ft. and to my amazement there was a Heinkel 111 parked in  the lee of the hangar. Where it came from or if it was real or a mock up I never  found out but we bored into the attack by flying down the opposite side of the  hangar, banking steeply, round the side wall and popped out behind the hangar  with metaphoric guns blazing. Great fun..

 Nearly made me forget the picture of a pilot flying  a demonstration of a Benson.  I don`t think he had ever flown a gyro before  but he was the only guy they could get.  He looked scared to death before  he even got into the thing. He got it into the air and did the most tentative  circuit I have ever seen. Obviously the blades had not been balanced and the  stick was shaking in the pilots hand, backward s a forwards every time the  blades went round. He put the plane down and staggered away without a backward  glance and could not be persuaded to fly again. Never seen a guy so  scared.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat 

 



   [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:19 am Post subject: gyros

Interesting. Not about the gyro, but the He 111. I was up at Arlington (AWO) a few years back, and looked across from the ultralight field to see an He 111 sitting on the ramp in front of the airport office so I went over to see. The fellow who had flown it in told me the story. It was Franco's personal airplane given him by Hitler after the Spanish Civil War. It and all their Merlin powered Me 109's (they had been reengined in the 50's and 60's when the supply of DB engines was exhausted) had been bought up by the makers of the film, "The Battle of Britain" and the He (also Merlin powered) had been surplused out after the filming was done. He wouldn't tell me who owned the aircraft and he wouldn't give me a ride even when I offered to buy the gas. Oh well..... 



Rick Girard

do not archive



On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:53 AM, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

 [quote]       That is a huge difference in comfort and the  feeling of stability....  much

more enjoyable.  And the turns are  wicked!>>

  

 Hi Robert,

  

 The improved `gust resistance` is due to the high  wing loading I assume.  Re turns.  The instructor I flew with when he  finished his slalom of the traffic cones said `Lets go across the field and  attack that hangar. We got clearance and dashed across the field, over the main  runway, at about 20 ft. and to my amazement there was a Heinkel 111 parked in  the lee of the hangar. Where it came from or if it was real or a mock up I never  found out but we bored into the attack by flying down the opposite side of the  hangar, banking steeply, round the side wall and popped out behind the hangar  with metaphoric guns blazing. Great fun..

 Nearly made me forget the picture of a pilot flying  a demonstration of a Benson.  I don`t think he had ever flown a gyro before  but he was the only guy they could get.  He looked scared to death before  he even got into the thing. He got it into the air and did the most tentative  circuit I have ever seen. Obviously the blades had not been balanced and the  stick was shaking in the pilots hand, backward s a forwards every time the  blades went round. He put the plane down and staggered away without a backward  glance and could not be persuaded to fly again. Never seen a guy so  scared.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat 

 



    	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	


[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:19 am Post subject: gyros

bought up by the

makers of the film, "The  Battle of Britain" >>

  

 Hi Richard,

 sad to think that film could not be made now. The  planes do not exist and the CG stuff just doesn`t cut it. See the last version  of Tora! Tora! Rubbish compared to the original even if they did use T6`s for  Zero`s.

  

 Peter Jackson has a number of old planes stuck away  in a hangar down in NZ and there are runours that he would like to do a war  epic....vereee  interesstting.

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

aoldman(at)xtra.co.nz
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:37 am Post subject: gyros

He's { Peter Jackson} is working on a dam busters  movie. He has a collection of WW1 planes in Blenheim.The AirPort his  aircraft fly from is called Omaka . They are flown at wings over Wanaka  every other Easter and at the Marlborough air show every other  Easter.

 You can see some of the collection at Omaka  Aviation Heritage centre.{ You can google that}

 You will see more of this subject at   "thevintageaviator.co.nz"

 To keep this Kolb related ,My Kolb shares hanger  space with my replica Sopwith camal.

  

 Regards

            Downunder

           MK111c

 [quote]   ---

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:25 am Post subject: gyros

He's { Peter Jackson} is working on a dam busters  movie. >>

  

 Thats great news. I understood something was  brewing. What is Jackson going to do about Guy Gibsons dog? You probably can`t  call a dog `Nigger` these days. Historical accuracy or will the pc fraternity  win out yet again.

  

 Difficult film to make .The original with Richard  Todd was a classic and in spite of the poor `effects`(the best at the time) it  is one of the best war films (along with Ice Cold in Alex) produced. Those of my  age have a great feeling for that film and would hate to have it `messed  about`

  

 In NZ for a month in Feb. next year but planning to  stay in the Bay of Islands so little chance of getting to South  Island.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

beauford

Joined: 25 Apr 2007
Posts: 127
Location: Brandon, FL

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:40 pm Post subject: gyros

Rick:

 That particular He-111, actually a Spanish-built CASA  2111, was destroyed in a crash in Wyoming about 5 or 6 years ago.  It lost  an engine and went in into a built-up area, killing all aboard.   A  friend of mine knew the pilot, who was a pilot for one of the major  airlines.  Airplane belonged to the CAF.

  

 On a Kolb note... looks like the goo which used to be  the Manatee airstrip is beginning to dry out a bit.  Management had closed  the eastern half of it because of the mud and water.  Summer weather  pattern here appears to be breaking and the fall pattern ought to dry it up  pretty quickly...   may be able to actually get in there and commit  some aviation with the Kleenex Kolb this coming week.  

  

 fingers crossed beauford

 FF-076

 Do Not Archive

 [quote]   ---

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