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Emergency landings

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rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: Emergency landings

Thom, et al, I have never done a stopped prop landing, ever, until yesterday. I personally don't see the point. If the atmosphere were a constant it would make some sense, but it's not. Anything I were to practice on a given day would be almost completely irrelevant to another. Headwinds, tailwinds, convective activity, and obstructions to the wind all play a part and can change by the minute. Knowing something about the aircraft by rote is of little use in a dynamic situation. So what can you do / what do I do? As I said in my post yesterday, I had an instructor who drilled the concept of FIRST FLY THE AIRCRAFT into me. No matter what else I was doing in the cockpit right then, his voice was still in my head, "First Fly the Aircraft".

 I also know about the spot that does not move, or rather the band that does not move. This is a very simple concept to learn, it DOES work in all situations and conditions and it will NEVER fail you, unless you are suddenly struck blind while in the cockpit. 

 The concept is simple. All of you going flying today can check it out. From any altitude you choose (higher is better for this purpose) set any descent throttle setting you choose at any airspeed you choose. Look out in front of you at objects on the ground. Some will appear to be moving toward you and some will appear to be moving away. Between is a narrow band of objects that appear to be stationary. That narrow band is the furthest you can reach under the current conditions. Anything inside that band is a good bet for an emergency landing, anything outside is impossible, UNLESS conditions change. Change any of the variables and see how the band moves. At best glide it is one place, at minimum sink it is in another. It will move and change, but the concept is always constant. You cannot reach any spot on the ground that appears to be moving away from you.

 I learned this flying hang gliders before I ever knew that Langewiesche had described it in "Stick and Rudder" a generation before. He explained it completely and illustrated it, too. If you only get a copy for that concept, the book has paid for itself.

 As long as I'm on the podium let me ask, how many of you stop and take a few minutes to evaluate conditions before you fly? I'm not talking about calling 1-800-WXBRIEF, I'm talking about standing on the ramp, away from buildings and obstructions, feeling what the wind is doing right then, right there. The briefer will give you meteorology which is useful for flying cross country and long range outlook. 

 What is just as useful, IMHO, is micrometeorology, what the atmosphere is doing here and now. With a little knowledge and practice you can begin to visualize what is happening and why. I know every current and former soaring pilot is nodding his head right now. We learned this as a part of our flying because the atmosphere IS the engine for soaring. Most of you who only fly powered aircraft have probably not. 

 If you are interested, I recommend Dennis Pagen's book, "Understanding the Sky" or his earlier book, "Micrometeorology for Pilots". The former is available from Amazon, among others, the latter may be out of print, I didn't look that hard. Either will give you a good primer on the subject.

 End of sermon. 

Rick Girard

  [quote][b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: Emergency landings

Righteous sermon Rick.  The spot that does not move was part of my PPL training in the trusty old C-150.Works well except when headwinds or thermals interrupt the flow.   

When I think back to flying regularly over the LA basin as a student. -that spot wouldn't have done much good 

over solid cityscape.  I was certainly naive.  Runway or freeway, your choice.

Favorite destination was Santa Paula.

BB

do not archive



On 27, Sep 2009, at 10:47 AM, Richard Girard wrote:

[quote]Thom, et al, I have never done a stopped prop landing, ever, until yesterday. I personally don't see the point. If the atmosphere were a constant it would make some sense, but it's not. Anything I were to practice on a given day would be almost completely irrelevant to another. Headwinds, tailwinds, convective activity, and obstructions to the wind all play a part and can change by the minute. Knowing something about the aircraft by rote is of little use in a dynamic situation. So what can you do / what do I do? As I said in my post yesterday, I had an instructor who drilled the concept of FIRST FLY THE AIRCRAFT into me. No matter what else I was doing in the cockpit right then, his voice was still in my head, "First Fly the Aircraft".

 I also know about the spot that does not move, or rather the band that does not move. This is a very simple concept to learn, it DOES work in all situations and conditions and it will NEVER fail you, unless you are suddenly struck blind while in the cockpit. 

 The concept is simple. All of you going flying today can check it out. From any altitude you choose (higher is better for this purpose) set any descent throttle setting you choose at any airspeed you choose. Look out in front of you at objects on the ground. Some will appear to be moving toward you and some will appear to be moving away. Between is a narrow band of objects that appear to be stationary. That narrow band is the furthest you can reach under the current conditions. Anything inside that band is a good bet for an emergency landing, anything outside is impossible, UNLESS conditions change. Change any of the variables and see how the band moves. At best glide it is one place, at minimum sink it is in another. It will move and change, but the concept is always constant. You cannot reach any spot on the ground that appears to be moving away from you.

 I learned this flying hang gliders before I ever knew that Langewiesche had described it in "Stick and Rudder" a generation before. He explained it completely and illustrated it, too. If you only get a copy for that concept, the book has paid for itself.

 As long as I'm on the podium let me ask, how many of you stop and take a few minutes to evaluate conditions before you fly? I'm not talking about calling 1-800-WXBRIEF, I'm talking about standing on the ramp, away from buildings and obstructions, feeling what the wind is doing right then, right there. The briefer will give you meteorology which is useful for flying cross country and long range outlook. 

 What is just as useful, IMHO, is micrometeorology, what the atmosphere is doing here and now. With a little knowledge and practice you can begin to visualize what is happening and why. I know every current and former soaring pilot is nodding his head right now. We learned this as a part of our flying because the atmosphere IS the engine for soaring. Most of you who only fly powered aircraft have probably not. 

 If you are interested, I recommend Dennis Pagen's book, "Understanding the Sky" or his earlier book, "Micrometeorology for Pilots". The former is available from Amazon, among others, the latter may be out of print, I didn't look that hard. Either will give you a good primer on the subject.

 End of sermon. 

Rick Girard

  	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

dalewhelan

Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Posts: 105
Location: USA ARIZONA fountain hills

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Emergency landings

I practiced dead stick landings in preparation for the day I had a real one.

That day came and I was confident, I think that made me more able to fly my plane.

I think why put yourself in that position is a valid point.

My thought is why accidentally find yourself if the unknown?

_________________
Dale Whelan
503 powered Firestar II, Luscombe 8A
Projection, A simple and interesting Psychological concept

JetPilot

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246

Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Emergency landings

Rick, nice job on the forced landing with no damage, I'm always glad to see something like this turn out well for a fellow Kolb flyer.



There is a huge advantage to having flown my Kolb with the prop actually stopped as opposed to minimum idle.    Before I tried actually shutting down the engine in flight, I was planning on about 500 FPM sink and much better glide.  When I actually shut down the engine in flight, I found that my sink was almost DOUBLE of what it was at minimum idle, and that my glide would be far less than I was used to.   Knowing this before hand and having practice at this in perfect conditions is far better  than having to figure it out in a few seconds in the middle of an emergency.



How many people could unlearn many months of practice of unrealistically long glides in engine failure simulations,  and adapt to something much worse than expected within a few seconds during an emergency and do a good job at it ?   It can be done, but its a setup for failure.   Knowing how your plane performs when that prop suddenly stops before it is an emergency is a huge advantage.  



Some Kolbs have a longer glide with the engine stopped, some like mine have a drastically reduced glide, which is why everyone should find a way to safely test it in their plane.



Mike

_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!

Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: Emergency landings

Some will appear to be moving toward you  and

some will appear to be moving away. Between is a narrow band of objects  that

appear to be stationary. >>

  

 Hi Richard,

 anyone who has sailed will be familiar with this  concept. If from your boat you take a bearing on another boat on an  intersection course and it doesnt change YOU WILL HIT THE OTHER BOAT.  Similarly if you are pointing as high on the wind as you can go (this is  disregarding marine motorists in stink boats) and the bearing  of the  harbour, headland or whatever is unchanging, that is where you will end  up.

  

 For flying all you have to do is turn the concept  through 90 degrees.

  

 Incidentally i should be flying at this moment.  Lovely day. nil wind. Planned a quiet 30 mile trundle to a neighbouring  field. Trip to garage to buy fuel. Took front off the hangar took the covers  off and pushed her out. Filled up. Did pre flight. Strapped in. Switch on  compass. Check GPS is Off. Set choke, set throttle, switches ON. B*gg*r . I  had left the Master switch ON when I flew 2 days ago and in spite of my solar  charger the battery was dead as a dodo. No spanners  so I cant take the  battery out to put on charge. Drive home 3 miles away. Really should drive back  and get the battery out and on charge. Too far.

 Have to lecture on flight at a school tomorrow so I  will prepare for that instead.

 Best laid plans etc  etc.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

slyck(at)frontiernet.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:28 am Post subject: Emergency landings

Pat, if you have access to the battery you may be able to hook jumper cables, leave the car on fast idle for half an hoursufficient for a light charge.  -Unless, of course, the car has an old English charging system 

By marine motorists you may be referring to those detestables in the twin V8 fantasy hulls wearing gold chains

and cannot afford mufflers.

BB

do not archive

On 28, Sep 2009, at 7:12 AM, pj.ladd wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Some will appear to be moving toward you and

some will appear to be moving away. Between is a narrow band of objects that

appear to be stationary. >>

 

Hi Richard,

anyone who has sailed will be familiar with this concept. If from your boat you take a bearing on another boat on an intersection course and it doesnt change YOU WILL HIT THE OTHER BOAT. Similarly if you are pointing as high on the wind as you can go (this is disregarding marine motorists in stink boats) and the bearing  of the harbour, headland or whatever is unchanging, that is where you will end up.

 

For flying all you have to do is turn the concept through 90 degrees.

 

Incidentally i should be flying at this moment. Lovely day. nil wind. Planned a quiet 30 mile trundle to a neighbouring field. Trip to garage to buy fuel. Took front off the hangar took the covers off and pushed her out. Filled up. Did pre flight. Strapped in. Switch on compass. Check GPS is Off. Set choke, set throttle, switches ON. B*gg*r . I had left the Master switch ON when I flew 2 days ago and in spite of my solar charger the battery was dead as a dodo. No spanners  so I cant take the battery out to put on charge. Drive home 3 miles away. Really should drive back and get the battery out and on charge. Too far.

Have to lecture on flight at a school tomorrow so I will prepare for that instead.

Best laid plans etc  etc.

 

Cheers

 

Pat

 	  Quote: 	
		  



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 [quote][b]

rickofudall

Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 1392
Location: Udall, KS, USA

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:37 am Post subject: Emergency landings

Pat, Been there a couple of times with the discharged battery. When I rewired Zulu Delta I put in two big LED's for the two positions of the master switch that can discharge the battery and put them right under the key switch to the starter relay. If I don't switch it off now I suppose I could get a seat sensor at the wrecking yard and hook it to an alarm bell or a strobe.  



Rick



On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 6:12 AM, pj.ladd <pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com (pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com)> wrote:

[quote]        Some will appear to be moving toward you  and

some will appear to be moving away. Between is a narrow band of objects  that

appear to be stationary. >>

  

 

Hi Richard,

 anyone who has sailed will be familiar with this  concept. If from your boat you take a bearing on another boat on an  intersection course and it doesnt change YOU WILL HIT THE OTHER BOAT.  Similarly if you are pointing as high on the wind as you can go (this is  disregarding marine motorists in stink boats) and the bearing  of the  harbour, headland or whatever is unchanging, that is where you will end  up.

  

 For flying all you have to do is turn the concept  through 90 degrees.

  

 Incidentally i should be flying at this moment.  Lovely day. nil wind. Planned a quiet 30 mile trundle to a neighbouring  field. Trip to garage to buy fuel. Took front off the hangar took the covers  off and pushed her out. Filled up. Did pre flight. Strapped in. Switch on  compass. Check GPS is Off. Set choke, set throttle, switches ON. B*gg*r . I  had left the Master switch ON when I flew 2 days ago and in spite of my solar  charger the battery was dead as a dodo. No spanners  so I cant take the  battery out to put on charge. Drive home 3 miles away. Really should drive back  and get the battery out and on charge. Too far.

 Have to lecture on flight at a school tomorrow so I  will prepare for that instead.

 Best laid plans etc  etc.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

    	  Quote: 	
		  



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[b]

_________________
The smallest miracle right in front of you is enough to make you happy....

WhiskeyVictor36(at)AOL.CO
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: Emergency landings

In a message dated 9/28/2009 8:28:35 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  slyck(at)frontiernet.net writes:

   	  Quote: 	
		  if you    have access to the battery you may be able to hook jumper cables, leave the    car on fast idle for half an hour    sufficient for a light charge.  -Unless, of course, the car has an    old English charging system 

    

    

   Old English charging system?  That would be Lucas-The    Prince of Darkness.

	


  [quote][b]

WhiskeyVictor36(at)aol.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject: Emergency landings

In a message dated 9/28/2009 7:22:50 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		     Drive home 3 miles away. Really should    drive back and get the battery out and on charge. Too far.

    

   Pat,

    

   3 miles too far???  Some of us here in the    states drive more than 20 times that far.  I personally drive 32 miles    one way every time I go flying.     

   Bill    Varnes

Original Kolb FireStar

Audubon NJ

Do Not    Archive



	


  [quote][b]

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:13 pm Post subject: Emergency landings

Yeah, what a puss!  Perhaps traffic is much worse over  there, they do drive on the wrong side of the road, you know.

 Larry

 [quote]   ---

_________________
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Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Emergency landings

Pat,



I feel your frustration. 



I did the same thing shortly after returning home with my new-to-me Slingshot. Fortunately for me, the builder (a commercial electrician) of this fine Slingshot had the foresight to run a quick disconnect cable from the battery, buried deep in the nose, to an easy access point and also provided a set of cables with the quick disconnect fitting on one end and alligator clips on the other, so it was a simple matter to hook it up to my car battery, start the Jabiru and let the engine alternator charge the battery. It would have been a very large PITA to get to the battery itself, probably requiring removal of the nose cone.



I plan to replace the current master switch with a lighted circuit breaker switch during the winter while my SS is stored.

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: Emergency landings

sufficient for a light charge. 

  

 Hi,

 Just about possible in a real emergency but I doubt  that a `Light` charge will hack it. it needs a fair bit of wump to turn over  four cylinders with no compression lifter.

  

 `<<By marine motorists you may be referring  to those detestables in the  

twin V8 fantasy hulls wearing gold chains  and cannot afford mufflers.>>

  

 Thats the boys. The ones who don`t know a sheet  from a halliard and think they are sailors.

  

 Sorry! Prejudices showing.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

 



   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: Emergency landings

Yeah, what a puss!  >>

  

 I know Larry.  I thought that when I typed it,  but at my age there are other priorities. Like getting in my afternoon snooze  and I had already driven to the field and back.

  

 Pathetic isn`t it? I can remember the time I would  happily drag my boat 65 miles to the coast after work to get in a couple of  hours sailing. Load it up and drive home again. Sadly that sort of energy has  gone with the wind.

 Done my flying talk to the local school this  morning. Now 12.50 and a lovely day. Nil wind, sunny. Intended to wash the plane  today but may just have enough energy to drive to the field  and refit  the battery and perhaps get a circuit in this afternoon but I have a  drinking appointment at the pub at 6 and that cuts the time down.

 Thats  b*gg***d it. Wendy has just suggested  that we go to the pub for lunch. Thats the whole day shot.

 Its a tough life but somebody has to do  it.

  

 Cheers

  

 Pat

   [quote][b]

pj.ladd(at)btinternet.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:05 am Post subject: Emergency landings

plan to replace the current master switch with a lighted circuit breaker 

switch >>



Hi Thom,

thats looks a good idea.



Cheers



Pat

lcottrell

Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 1494
Location: Jordan Valley, Or

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:56 am Post subject: Emergency landings

Just a suggestion, but I took two of the little  colored auto lights, and use them to tell me when my master switch is on and  when my electric fuel pump is on. They fit in a 1/2 inch hole. Of course my  facet pump is connected to the master switch and when the switch is on, I can  hear the pump working, so I have a visual and auditory clue that I am forgetting  something. Cost is about 3 bucks apiece, when you need a good battery-  Priceless!

 Larry

  

 [quote]   ---

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