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Ice

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dlm46007(at)cox.net
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Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 8:54 pm Post subject: Ice

Any 10 encounters  with ice that can be shared. I plan to take a late fall trip and might  encounter. Having flown (reluctantly) some ice in my C177RG over the past 30  years, it would be nice to know how the 10 reacts with rime or  clear? 

   [quote][b]

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Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Ice

You probably won't like my answer since my 10 is not flying, but knowing if a plane (not made for icing) does kind of okay is probably best not knowing.  There have been several Cirrus aircraft that was legal for inadvertent icing encounter and crashed from it.  Now the new Cirrus are certified for known icing.  I fly a Citation Jet for a company and maybe I don't know enough but you never can tell how much ice is going to accumulate on the aircraft.  I personally believe it is a very hard question to answer and to try not to get in icing.  If you think the plane will do okay in it, it may persuade you to stay in it.  Having said all of that I have been in icing in a plane not made for it.  I got out of it as soon as I could.

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40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:45 am Post subject: Ice

Having flown a Cessna in the Midwest (OK,MO,IL,IN) during  all seasons. One

sets some ground rules. If one is going to fly during the winter in the

Midwest the aircraft is going to accept minimal icing or accept some very

hazardous VFR underneath. My rules are no continuous flight in icing

conditions. No flight near freezing rain. I do accept that I may have to

endure 3-5 minutes of climb in IMC to get on top. I may have to accept 3-5

minutes of ice on the approach. Of course the approach must be certainty

(well above minimums). I also refuse clearances that will take me into icing

until I am ready. SGF approach once offered a lower altitude at 30NM out. My

then current temperature was a +2C and the SGF surface temperature was -8C.

I refused the descent until vectored and cleared for the ILS approach about

7NM out). At 120KIAS to the marker and then 90KIAS, my exposure to ice would

be about 4 minutes. Conditions on the surface were 500 and 2. Yes I picked

up some ice during the approach but the runway was long the approach speed

was +20KIAS above normal landing speed. I now live in the mountainous west

where MEAs are very high and would guarantee icing in IMC except for a few

summer months. The rules out here are VFR underneath unless the freezing

levels are above freezing at the planned altitude.



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thane

Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 56

Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: Ice

One should never consider even being dispatched, if there were a chance for 

icing conditions.  I fly for a living and I would never fly my RV-10 near 

ice. period

How many lessons do we need to look back at to understand it is not worth 

the risk.

Just me 2 cents, fly safe and have fun

Thane States

321BY

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dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: Ice

As an A&P I have examined/studied the TKS, boots and bleed air solutions to

the icing problem. The question is how much ice is too much. In the Midwest

in the winter, a pilot might as well put the aircraft in storage if they

only fly cross country in CAVU VFR in the mid western winter. As a CFII I am

not suggesting that anyone challenge a strong winter storm; I do know that

after the winter storm front passes that there is usually considerable

overcast conditions behind the front where the overcast may be relatively

low and may only be 1-2 thousand feet thick, Perhaps 1-2 minutes climb in

the RV10. If the temperatures are below freezing then the overcast will

probably contain rime ice which may or may not adhere to the aircraft. Once

on top the ice will begin to sublimate away even though the temperatures are

below freezing. A trip in the blue skies in smooth air is preferred over

bumping along under the overcast (probable limited visibility) with

potential of encountering some tall TV antennas. In OK there are two (1400

AGL and 1900 AGL) near Tulsa and three (all 1500 AGL) near the ILS into OK

city. So poking around VFR underneath can also be hazardous.



Lest we think that the heavy iron icing systems will save us; I can relate a

personal experience of a pilot mechanic from Mesa AZ about three years ago.

He was a pilot and mechanic flying a Aero commander twin turboprop with full

de icing boots into Cortez Colorado. The aircraft was certified for known

ice and he flew into icing in SW Colorado. The icing was severe and on his

approach into Cortez his circle to land maneuver produced a stall spin and a

crash near the airport. The SAR people found large amount of ice on the

airframe. On that same day, same time a corporate jet at the flight levels

encountered severe icing in the same area and made it to safety using its

anti ice/deice systems. It did experience over $1M of aircraft damage due to

ice striking the aircraft as the ice was leaving the aircraft



In the 1970s I was scheduled to leave JEFF CO airport north of Denver in the

winter. There was a major winter storm moving through. KS and MO had sleet

and freezing rain. My father was complaining about needing to get back to

work on Monday. He wanted to rent a car and drive to Peoria IL. I told him

we were not flying since I did not want to die today. The next day we left

and traveled East at about 11000 enroute. By MKC I could see the remnants of

an overcast below me at about 3000 MSL. Upon our arrival in the Peoria area

I informed my parents that we would probably pick up a little ice since we

had to descend through a thin overcast into 3MY. Upon landing I parked and

my parents deplaned. Mom said we did not get any ice. I took her over to the

wing and had her place her hand on it as the heat of her hand melted the

thin ice layer and water dripped on the ground.



My point: Systems will not save you; judgment will. If you are not going to

store the aircraft from October to April, then you will need to develop some

judgment about what is flyable and what is not. An IFR rating and the

ability to use it will be very helpful; ATC will give you any assistance you

request short of flying the aircraft for you if you are on an IFR clearance.

You may not get their attention if VFR unless you precede your call with a

MAYDAY.  Study the 1228H accident last week. Look at the NTSB report; look

at the pilot data on the FAA files. Sometimes judgment develops from

anothers accident.

 



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Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: Ice

I've poked through fairly small clouds in the Citation over the Wasatch 

Mountains over Utah and picked up enough ice to create snail trails past the 

heated leading edge and cover the windshield despite the bleed air.  The 

windshield gets covered a lot of the time but the leading edges usually take 

care of the ice on the wings.  It took a short time to accumulate past the 

leading edge in this circumstance and I sure as hell wouldn't want to be in 

a plane without anti-ice or boots.  This was during one hold on a gps 

approach that was about three total minutes in the cloud.  After I did my 

missed, Salt Lake wanted me to go back to the hold and I told them unable 

due to severe icing.

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_________________
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RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

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