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karolamy(at)roadrunner.co
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 Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:41 pm Post subject: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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Did my BFR this week in the 6A and spent some ground time with a G1000
system, thus renewing my enthusiasm for installing a G 900 in the 10. I
know as a group we are fortunate to now have several 900 drivers out there -
Robin, Gary, and more! For those of us still contemplating panel choices
would you guys please let us know what the fees ( costs in subscriptions,
XM, etc) are in keeping this 900 going and up to date. Also, what is the
mininum cost one may need to look forword to in VFR vrs IFR. Details would
sure be helpful like: "Charts and plates are $XXX, XM weather is $XXX,
traffic is $XXX, Other is $XXX - all per month. My annual fees are about
$XXX". Do you have NAV-WRX etc?
Appreciate any input from you guys! Thanks so much.
Rich
RV-6A 1000 hours
RV-10 Finishing kit - gear & wheel fairings
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:25 pm Post subject: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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Rich,
I am just going through the update process / potential
nightmare. I can't say enough good things about how the GH900X performs
especially with the SVT (synthetic terrain), TIS Traffic (where
available) and XM WX (plus Audio).
First the Fees. If you want to be completely up to date all the
time here are the fees. I didn't write down the individual fees as the
annual fees are 2-3 times the price for 10-13 times the data. Data is
provided by two (2) different companies through Three (3) different
delivery systems (of course).
DataBase Costs:
Jeppesen 800-553-7750/303-799-9090
Airport/Nav/Freq/Waypoint Data etc = $410.00 full US (annual) (partial
US is about $300)
Garmin Data (annual):
Safe Taxi $195
Obstacles $195
Flight Charts $395
~$800.00 Total
Terrain $150 Occasional Random Updates ~1.5-2 years
Assuming random & occasional Terrain updates the total annual DB update
is $410 + $800 = $1,210.00/year. Depending on the type of flying you do
you may be able to save by postponing Safe Taxi which is a tremendous
feature but I am unsure how critical these small changes are over the
years relative to the costs. PLEASE no flaming me, just a suggestion to
save a few $ for some that have regular commutes.
Obviously the two different companies are Jeppesen & Garmin and the
Download process is simple from Jeppesen and simple for Garmin but from
two different places "MyGarmin.com" for technical manuals, System
Updates etc... and Fly.Garmin.com for purchasing & downloading
Taxi/Obstacles/Charts.
Unfortunately there are some issues I am having with Garmin that border
on disturbing. The knowledgeable technical support is near non-existent.
When you call Garmin they answer with minimal hold times. GREAT! You
explain your issues completely and then they tell you they can't answer
your question and transfer you to a Field Service Representative that
SHOULD be versed in the G900X. You explain one more time your issue and
they hem and haw and tell you that you should really speak with the
G900X expert Tim. They transfer you to Tim whom I suspect it the most
overworked person at Garmin and with any luck he will answer your
questions but he is rarely available on the phone and will usually email
you back. Now Tim is excellent, knowledgeable and very friendly but he
seems to be the only person qualified to help. Let me give you a recent
example of some frustrating Garmin processes.
Initially my Garmin would not speak with my ($10,000) Sorcerer AP for
flying a heading. You could set & adjust the heading on the AP and it
would fly but not set or change it on the G900X and have it speak to the
AP to fly that heading. I spoke with Tim via email and after some
research we discovered that a recent System Software version addressed
the issue and all I had to do was upgrade the System Software (here
after SS = System Software) I had 006-00718-04 and needed to upgrade to
006-00718-05. Problem solved... Right... Well not exactly. How the
%(*&^(at)$! do you update the SS? Obviously you look in the 500 page Pilots
Guide. Fortunately it's in PDF form so after reading it front to back
again and looking for the procedure I contacted Tim who told me I would
find the procedure in the Installation Manual. Cool... All relevant
documents are housed at MyGarmin.com so I downloaded the Installation
Manual (hereafter IM) and read all 500 pages with not a word on
installing the SS. Geezzzz. I called Tim again and he emailed me that
the instructions were in section 15.1.2. Ohhhh that explains it, my IM
ends at 14.something.something. At this point I don't really feel I need
to control the Heading from the Heading knob on the Garmin. But I press
on. I ask Tim why I don't automatically have the latest IM in MyGarmin
as that is the place Garmin automatically updates all owners documents
so everyone is current. Apparently they have a few glitches on the auto
document population process. How much is this G900X again? I get the
latest IM and go straight to section 15.1.2 and start reading the SS
install process. The actual loading of the SS SEEMS pretty straight
forward with the exception of the 3rd paragraph where you are instructed
to clear all User Settings. Sounds innocent enough, User Settings
(hereafter U-S). The U-S are all your saved flight plans, all your
customized PFD/MFD settings and all your calibrations. WHAT? All your
calibrations??? That includes fuel, trim, flap etc... That has to be
wrong. There is no way Garmin would have you clear those w/o a way to
save and reinstall these settings. As part of the G900X purchase
included is a Certified G900X technician to calibrate and approve the
install at your location. As I was one of the first Tim and another tech
spent 2 days getting my system up and running and had to come back one
more time as they didn't have a tool to test some avionics required.
That is a 3 day out of town visit to approve the system and now they
want you to wipe out all the settings for a simple system upgrade.
Now granted the System Upgrades are fantastic as they keep adding
features like CHT/EGT data logging, moving items around based on user
suggestions etc... but no way can I wipe out the calibrations. There
must be some mistake but I am still waiting for an answer before I wipe
out all those settings. Did I mention I am still waiting?
As a user interface systems designer all these processes sure seem
unfriendly compared to how they could have been designed with what
amounts to a system like we have on some of our smart phones but
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (picture John Belushi) this is more DOS like for some
unthinkable reason. Game of Pong anyone?
Since this issue is not resolved I am reserving judgment on the
data/calibrations loss problem till I have final word but as you can
tell from my experience so far simple answers are not readily available.
My one BIG piece of security is that this is a Garmin product and I am
sure they will be around vs. spending a bucket full of $ and having it
go all OP on me. You know me.... Mr. Glass Half Full...
One more thing. I know Tim has found a way to keep his Chelton up to
date for a fraction of what the Garmin/Jeppersen people are spending.
Including purchasing a lifetime deal on some updates that is impossible
to beat.
I have more to say but I am heading to the airport for a night flight
back to SBP.
Robin
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daveleikam(at)wi.rr.com
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 6:54 pm Post subject: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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Keep blazin' the trails Robin...
Dave Leikam
RV-10 #40496
N89DA
Muskego, WI
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Tim Olson
Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2872
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| Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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One clarification on the updates that Robin is referring to that
I do for the Chelton... I pay about $500/yr I think for
the updates for my GNS-480 and my Chelton systems combined.
This is NavData, and obstructions. From time to time I guess
they have Terrain updates but as terrain rarely changes, I've
never actually had one. I don't have smart taxi, or charts on
the system. The lifetime deal that he talked about was actually
a one-time promo that Voyager ran for the first 100 customers
to reply to an email offer.....a lifetime of EFB chart
subscription for $600. So, for charts, I use Voyager, which
has Geo-referenced WAC/TAC/SECTIONAL/IFR(low and high) charts
and geo-referenced approach plates, all integrated to GPS to
plot your position...and I use it on an older LE1600 with a
SSD. For me, that works perfectly for what I need for approaches.
The chelton contains most of the info I need, but usually you
still have to look up the minimums for the approach, so
after a quick look at the plate, I can usually just fly it
without the tablet if I choose to. In fact, now that I've
grown attached at the hip to my iphone with Foreflight, I
lately have just been looking at the approach plate on that,
for all of my practice...saving the tablet for those real
IFR times. The Voyager deal was a 1-time thing, so for most
people you'll have an annual subscription just like I used
to for a couple years....but for all the charts you get,
there's not any more effective way to carry all the
charts and have all that function. Voyager even has HITS.
They have a new promo going too, where you can buy a whole
pre-loaded tablet for something like $1000 that comes with
the software and everything, and a 3 month sub. It looks to
be a great way to start it. The only caveat is, no matter
what you do for a PC in the plane, definitely do it with
a SSD hard drive. Far superior for what we do.
Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD
Robin Marks wrote:
[quote]
Rich,
I am just going through the update process / potential
nightmare. I can't say enough good things about how the GH900X performs
especially with the SVT (synthetic terrain), TIS Traffic (where
available) and XM WX (plus Audio).
First the Fees. If you want to be completely up to date all the
time here are the fees. I didn't write down the individual fees as the
annual fees are 2-3 times the price for 10-13 times the data. Data is
provided by two (2) different companies through Three (3) different
delivery systems (of course).
DataBase Costs:
Jeppesen 800-553-7750/303-799-9090
Airport/Nav/Freq/Waypoint Data etc = $410.00 full US (annual) (partial
US is about $300)
Garmin Data (annual):
Safe Taxi $195
Obstacles $195
Flight Charts $395
~$800.00 Total
Terrain $150 Occasional Random Updates ~1.5-2 years
Assuming random & occasional Terrain updates the total annual DB update
is $410 + $800 = $1,210.00/year. Depending on the type of flying you do
you may be able to save by postponing Safe Taxi which is a tremendous
feature but I am unsure how critical these small changes are over the
years relative to the costs. PLEASE no flaming me, just a suggestion to
save a few $ for some that have regular commutes.
Obviously the two different companies are Jeppesen & Garmin and the
Download process is simple from Jeppesen and simple for Garmin but from
two different places "MyGarmin.com" for technical manuals, System
Updates etc... and Fly.Garmin.com for purchasing & downloading
Taxi/Obstacles/Charts.
Unfortunately there are some issues I am having with Garmin that border
on disturbing. The knowledgeable technical support is near non-existent.
When you call Garmin they answer with minimal hold times. GREAT! You
explain your issues completely and then they tell you they can't answer
your question and transfer you to a Field Service Representative that
SHOULD be versed in the G900X. You explain one more time your issue and
they hem and haw and tell you that you should really speak with the
G900X expert Tim. They transfer you to Tim whom I suspect it the most
overworked person at Garmin and with any luck he will answer your
questions but he is rarely available on the phone and will usually email
you back. Now Tim is excellent, knowledgeable and very friendly but he
seems to be the only person qualified to help. Let me give you a recent
example of some frustrating Garmin processes.
Initially my Garmin would not speak with my ($10,000) Sorcerer AP for
flying a heading. You could set & adjust the heading on the AP and it
would fly but not set or change it on the G900X and have it speak to the
AP to fly that heading. I spoke with Tim via email and after some
research we discovered that a recent System Software version addressed
the issue and all I had to do was upgrade the System Software (here
after SS = System Software) I had 006-00718-04 and needed to upgrade to
006-00718-05. Problem solved... Right... Well not exactly. How the
%(*&^(at)$! do you update the SS? Obviously you look in the 500 page Pilots
Guide. Fortunately it's in PDF form so after reading it front to back
again and looking for the procedure I contacted Tim who told me I would
find the procedure in the Installation Manual. Cool... All relevant
documents are housed at MyGarmin.com so I downloaded the Installation
Manual (hereafter IM) and read all 500 pages with not a word on
installing the SS. Geezzzz. I called Tim again and he emailed me that
the instructions were in section 15.1.2. Ohhhh that explains it, my IM
ends at 14.something.something. At this point I don't really feel I need
to control the Heading from the Heading knob on the Garmin. But I press
on. I ask Tim why I don't automatically have the latest IM in MyGarmin
as that is the place Garmin automatically updates all owners documents
so everyone is current. Apparently they have a few glitches on the auto
document population process. How much is this G900X again? I get the
latest IM and go straight to section 15.1.2 and start reading the SS
install process. The actual loading of the SS SEEMS pretty straight
forward with the exception of the 3rd paragraph where you are instructed
to clear all User Settings. Sounds innocent enough, User Settings
(hereafter U-S). The U-S are all your saved flight plans, all your
customized PFD/MFD settings and all your calibrations. WHAT? All your
calibrations??? That includes fuel, trim, flap etc... That has to be
wrong. There is no way Garmin would have you clear those w/o a way to
save and reinstall these settings. As part of the G900X purchase
included is a Certified G900X technician to calibrate and approve the
install at your location. As I was one of the first Tim and another tech
spent 2 days getting my system up and running and had to come back one
more time as they didn't have a tool to test some avionics required.
That is a 3 day out of town visit to approve the system and now they
want you to wipe out all the settings for a simple system upgrade.
Now granted the System Upgrades are fantastic as they keep adding
features like CHT/EGT data logging, moving items around based on user
suggestions etc... but no way can I wipe out the calibrations. There
must be some mistake but I am still waiting for an answer before I wipe
out all those settings. Did I mention I am still waiting?
As a user interface systems designer all these processes sure seem
unfriendly compared to how they could have been designed with what
amounts to a system like we have on some of our smart phones but
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO (picture John Belushi) this is more DOS like for some
unthinkable reason. Game of Pong anyone?
Since this issue is not resolved I am reserving judgment on the
data/calibrations loss problem till I have final word but as you can
tell from my experience so far simple answers are not readily available.
My one BIG piece of security is that this is a Garmin product and I am
sure they will be around vs. spending a bucket full of $ and having it
go all OP on me. You know me.... Mr. Glass Half Full...
One more thing. I know Tim has found a way to keep his Chelton up to
date for a fraction of what the Garmin/Jeppersen people are spending.
Including purchasing a lifetime deal on some updates that is impossible
to beat.
I have more to say but I am heading to the airport for a night flight
back to SBP.
Robin
--
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karolamy(at)roadrunner.co
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:56 pm Post subject: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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Thank you so much Robin and Tim. Your input helps greatly. Robin, I feel
for you and sure would like to hear how your situation with Garmin, the SS,
& calibrations comes out! Hang in there and keep us posted. If this is
the same (Garmin) Tim that I met (at) OSH, I agree he sure seems like a
knowledgeable and nice fellow, but we are looking for proper problem
resolution here, right?
Thanks so much again for some great helpful posts,
Rich
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zackrv8
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:01 am Post subject: Re: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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[ The knowledgeable technical support is near non-existent.
When you call Garmin they answer with minimal hold times.
I have been flying my RV10 now for a year with the 900X/Sorcerer installed.
Did you buy your 900X from Stein? They have very knowledgeable 900X support. In particular, they have a technician there that knows the 900X inside and out.
Initially my Garmin would not speak with my ($10,000) Sorcerer AP for
flying a heading.
Is the Heading bug working now? The Heading bug works with the 05 software update AND the additional D-sub connector wires that must be added.
Zack
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robin1(at)mrmoisture.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:13 am Post subject: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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Mistake #1. No I did not buy from Stein. It may make sense for me to pay
an hourly phone rate to a technical expert on the subject. My issues are
common in regards to upgrade paths. This is something a knowledgeable
technician should know blindfolded.
Have you ever upgraded your system software? I assume you must have
since with the release of the new version due in Nov/Dec this will be 3
updates in 12 months (from what I can tell).
No my heading bug is not working because I am not up to _05 due to the
calibration loss issue. I hope to resolve this in the coming week and
perform the upgrade.
Of note the group I purchased my G900X and all the other avionics
suggested I take it over the a certified Garmin avionics shop to upgrade
the system software. After the well respected local avionics shop called
Garmin to confirm the process they came back to me with 4-5 hours labor
at $110/hour. I have read the procedure, it's not very difficult or time
consuming unless the whole calibration loss is thrown into the process?
AGAIN I must be missing something unstated in the manual as there is no
way anyone would design a procedure whereby you lose all this critical
data that cannot be stored and reinstalled.
Do you have SVT?
Robin
--
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zackrv8
Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 133
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| Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: Re: G-900 fees, dues, subscriptions |
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Robin,
You need to upgrade to the 05 software because it cures many issues. To download this software into your 900X takes about 1 hour. It's not difficult at all as I have done it myself a few times.
No way should you have to recalibrate all of your settings...for sure the fuel calibration. The fuel calibration is protected and takes a couple more button pushes to cancel it. So, I don't know why or how you would have to cancel your fuel calibrations.
When I have a problem with software or hardware issues (and I have had many!), I first talk to Stein. Stein has a guy working for him named Christer. He is a GENIUS with the 900X! If he can't resolve the issue (he usually does in most cases), then he'll call Tim Larberg at Garmin.
Between the two of them, I get results.
One issue that stumped Christer and I was the GDL69. I wasn't getting good quality stereo audio on the XM radio. We tried everything. Finally, somehow I figured out it was a "slide switch" on my Bose headset.
Problem solved.
Yes, I have SVT. best thing since canned beer! I have flown many IFR (IMC) flights with it and it's like looking out the window. I also love the audio warnings it gives (you may not get audio until you upgrade to the 05 software).
Zack
| robin1(at)mrmoisture.com wrote: | Mistake #1. No I did not buy from Stein. It may make sense for me to pay
an hourly phone rate to a technical expert on the subject. My issues are
common in regards to upgrade paths. This is something a knowledgeable
technician should know blindfolded.
Have you ever upgraded your system software? I assume you must have
since with the release of the new version due in Nov/Dec this will be 3
updates in 12 months (from what I can tell).
No my heading bug is not working because I am not up to _05 due to the
calibration loss issue. I hope to resolve this in the coming week and
perform the upgrade.
Of note the group I purchased my G900X and all the other avionics
suggested I take it over the a certified Garmin avionics shop to upgrade
the system software. After the well respected local avionics shop called
Garmin to confirm the process they came back to me with 4-5 hours labor
at $110/hour. I have read the procedure, it's not very difficult or time
consuming unless the whole calibration loss is thrown into the process?
AGAIN I must be missing something unstated in the manual as there is no
way anyone would design a procedure whereby you lose all this critical
data that cannot be stored and reinstalled.
Do you have SVT?
Robin
-- |
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RV8 #80125
RV10 # 40512 |
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