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Fuel System Diagram

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squishyoleo(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:24 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Hi All,



Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram for those who are interested.  It's for an IO-320 with the Precision Airmotive fuel injection system.  It's very simple - a lot more simplistic than I thought the whole system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm going with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair yet.  Any suggestions? 

Mike

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JohnInReno

Joined: 08 Sep 2007
Posts: 150

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

My plans are similar but I don't understand the benefit of the gas collator.



John Morgensen

RV4 - Flying

RV9A - wiring

Grumman AA1B-150 For Sale



Mike De Lange wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi All,



 Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram for those who are interested.  It's for an IO-320 with the Precision Airmotive fuel injection system.  It's very simple - a lot more simplistic than I thought the whole system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm going with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair yet.  Any suggestions? 

 Mike

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_________________
John Morgensen
RV-9A - Born on July 3, 2013
RV4 - for sale

rvpilot(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Hi Mike,



I suggest that you eliminate the gascolator.  It is totally  

unnecessary and a real source of potential leaks.

It cannot be the lowest point in the system, the lowest points are  

the tank drains, and the filter will take care

  of any debris. Personally, I would put the flow transducer inside  

the firewall down stream of

the boost pump.  This gives you a better chance to get a straight run  

up stream of it, helps to eliminate

bubbles.  This set-up has worked well for me through 4 RV's



Bill

On Sep 28, 2009, at 9:23 AM, Mike De Lange wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi All,



 Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram for those who are  

 interested.  It's for an IO-320 with the Precision Airmotive fuel  

 injection system.  It's very simple - a lot more simplistic than I  

 thought the whole system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm  

 going with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair yet.   

 Any suggestions? 

 Mike

        

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 Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!



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peterlaurence6(at)gmail.c
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:42 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Mike, 



I made my fuel manifold for my RV9A. Bought  an Auto racing pump, which in my opinion is as good as Van's. I picked up the check valve and the pressure valve at Sun N Fun a couple of years ago.I think the AN fittings ended up costing more that the rest of the components.

 



However, After seeing Andair's pump, I going going with it and eliminating all those fittings and parts.

Peter

On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 9:23 AM, Mike De Lange <squishyoleo(at)yahoo.ca (squishyoleo(at)yahoo.ca)> wrote:

 [quote]Hi All,

 

 Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram for those who are interested.  It's for an IO-320 with the Precision Airmotive fuel injection system.  It's very simple - a lot more simplistic than I thought the whole system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm going with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair yet.  Any suggestions? 

  

 

 Mike

 

 

       __________________________________________________________________

 Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

 

 http://www.flickr.com/gift/[b]

rgf(at)dcn.davis.ca.us
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:14 pm Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Thanks for this, I hope to be at this stage in a year...or two.  Or longer,

well, I hope to be there.

Ralph Finch

Davis, California

RV-9A QB-SA



--

ceengland(at)bellsouth.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Mike De Lange wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Hi All,



 Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram for those who are interested.  It's for an IO-320 with the Precision Airmotive fuel injection system.  It's very simple - a lot more simplistic than I thought the whole system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm going with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair yet.  Any suggestions? 

 Mike

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Uh... I know that the Andair pump is bound to be perfect (at around 600 
	


American dollars), but the specs say 16gph (at) 25psi. Any good running 

180-200hp Lyc will flow more than that at sea level full power.....



Charlie

Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

I'm always baffled by this same misleading statement that has been trotted  out on the RV List time and time again.  Read my lips, "a gascolator  doesn't have to be the lowest point in the system in order to do its job".

  

 Where did this crazy idea come from?  Look at a  gascolator closely and pretend you understand the physics of a heavier and  more viscous fluid (water) settling out by gravity with the help of a  screen tight enough to let the lighter less viscous fluid (fuel) preferentially  float/flow thru.  All a gascolator needs to work is to be  installed correctly (with the bowl facing down and the curtis valve  accesible for draining).

  

 You don't have to shake a rattle, do a chant or pray.

  

 It's science.

  

 -GV

  

  In a message dated 9/28/2009 10:12:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  rvpilot(at)embarqmail.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  I    suggest that you eliminate the gascolator.  It is totally     

unnecessary and a real source of potential leaks.

It cannot be the    lowest point in the system, the lowest points are  

the tank drains,    and the filter will take care

  of any  debris. 	


  [quote][b]

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

My 200 hp IO 360 Mooney flows about 16.8 to 17.5 on takeoff depending on 

temperature and how close to sea level elevation. 16 gph capacity would 

be more than enough for 160 hp IO320.

Charlie England wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Mike De Lange wrote:

> Hi All,

>

> Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram for those who are 

> interested.  It's for an IO-320 with the Precision Airmotive fuel 

> injection system.  It's very simple - a lot more simplistic than I 

> thought the whole system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm 

> going with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair yet.  Any 

> suggestions? 

> Mike

>       __________________________________________________________________

> Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

> http://www.flickr.com/gift/

 Uh... I know that the Andair pump is bound to be perfect (at around 600 

 American dollars), but the specs say 16gph (at) 25psi. Any good running 

 180-200hp Lyc will flow more than that at sea level full power.....

 Charlie

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1705
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:28 pm Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

And you are going to guarantee that an engine pump designed to generate 

25 psi isn't going to have enough suction to lift the 

gascolator(designed for low pressure carb systems) valve off its seat 

and suck air??? Why do you need another water separator when the tanks 

should do the job at the quick drains?



Vanremog(at)aol.com wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   I'm always baffled by this same misleading statement that has been 

 trotted out on the RV List time and time again.  Read my lips, "a 

 gascolator doesn't have to be the lowest point in the system in order to 

 do its job".

  

 Where did this crazy idea come from?  Look at a gascolator closely and 

 pretend you understand the physics of a heavier and more viscous fluid 

 (water) settling out by gravity with the help of a screen tight enough 

 to let the lighter less viscous fluid (fuel) preferentially float/flow 

 thru.  All a gascolator needs to work is to be installed correctly (with 

 the bowl facing down and the curtis valve accesible for draining).

  

 You don't have to shake a rattle, do a chant or pray.

  

 It's science.

  

 -GV

  

 In a message dated 9/28/2009 10:12:53 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 

 rvpilot(at)embarqmail.com writes:

 

     I suggest that you eliminate the gascolator.  It is totally 

     unnecessary and a real source of potential leaks.

     It cannot be the lowest point in the system, the lowest points are 

     the tank drains, and the filter will take care

       of any debris.

 

 *

 

 

 *

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:44 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Mike,

 Most folks don't use a gascolator on a fuel injected engine. Unless you plan to use an Andair gascolator, most others are NOT designed for the sealing surfaces to withstand the 25 psi of a fuel injected system. That means you'll probably have fuel leaks with the electric pump turned on.

 I would suggest that you do one of three things.

#1 Simply eliminate the gascolator

#2 Swap places between your gascolator and the 6ILA fuel filter.

#3 Install a gascolator [or 4ILA fuel filter] in each wing root and eliminate the fuel filter and gascolator in the positions shown in your diagram. The 4ILA is a slightly smaller version of the 6ILA fuel filter. It is easier to fit into the wing root area. The Flow Ezy 6ILA is sold by both Vans and Airflow Performance. RV-9A builder Chris Heitman's company, Pegasus Auto Racing carries the 4ILA filter. See

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=3469

Charlie Kuss  

 	  Quote: 	
		   Mike De Lange wrote:

 > Hi All,

 >

 > Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram for

 those who are interested.  It's for an IO-320 with the

 Precision Airmotive fuel injection system.  It's very

 simple - a lot more simplistic than I thought the whole

 system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm going

 with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair

 yet.  Any suggestions? 

 >

 >

 > Mike

chaskuss(at)yahoo.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 3:22 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Mike,

 I would strongly suggest you read the post on the VAF WWW site by Don Rivera [owner of Airflow Performance] at the link below. See



http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=354763&postcount=4



The entire thread can be found below



http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=47463



Charlie Kuss



--- On Tue, 9/29/09, Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   From: Charles Kuss <chaskuss(at)yahoo.com>

 Subject: Re: Fuel System Diagram

 To: rv-list(at)matronics.com

 Date: Tuesday, September 29, 2009, 5:35 AM

 Mike,

  Most folks don't use a gascolator on a fuel injected

 engine. Unless you plan to use an Andair gascolator, most

 others are NOT designed for the sealing surfaces to

 withstand the 25 psi of a fuel injected system. That means

 you'll probably have fuel leaks with the electric pump

 turned on.

  I would suggest that you do one of three things.

 #1 Simply eliminate the gascolator

 #2 Swap places between your gascolator and the 6ILA fuel

 filter.

 #3 Install a gascolator [or 4ILA fuel filter] in each wing

 root and eliminate the fuel filter and gascolator in the

 positions shown in your diagram. The 4ILA is a slightly

 smaller version of the 6ILA fuel filter. It is easier to fit

 into the wing root area. The Flow Ezy 6ILA is sold by both

 Vans and Airflow Performance. RV-9A builder Chris Heitman's

 company, Pegasus Auto Racing carries the 4ILA filter. See

 

 http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=3469

 

 Charlie Kuss  

 

 > Mike De Lange wrote:

 > > Hi All,

 > >

 > > Here's a preliminary fuel system overview diagram

 for

 > those who are interested.  It's for an IO-320 with

 the

 > Precision Airmotive fuel injection system.  It's

 very

 > simple - a lot more simplistic than I thought the

 whole

 > system would be.  I still haven't decided if I'm

 going

 > with the Van's boost pump kit or the one from Andair

 > yet.  Any suggestions? 

 > >

 > >

 > > Mike

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


	


__________________________________________________

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:10 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

 	  Quote: 	
		  Why do you need another water separator when the tanks 

should do the job at the quick drains?


	


Although one can argue they "should" do the job, I have drained quite a bit of trash and water out of gascolators over the years.  Especially from planes with flush fuel caps.  Throw in some acro to stir things up, and now there is water in the fuel injection system.



To each his own, but my money (and rear end) is on the simple physics of a gascolator.



Glen Matejcek

panamared505(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:27 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

 	  Quote: 	
		   To each his own, but my money (and rear end) is on the simple physics of a 

 gascolator.


	


Simple physics of the gascolator may get one killed while in sustained 

inverted flight!



Bob

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"

squishyoleo(at)yahoo.ca
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

I've heard good points and bad about the usage of a gascolator from many people.  But regardless of what I may think about it one way or the other, here in Canada it's law to install one so I really have no choice.



As for the placement of the fuel flow transducer, if your boost pump is off does that affect your fuel flow reading at all?  I can see the benefit of putting it where you suggest since it also eliminates another run through the firewall.



Mike



---

rvpilot(at)embarqmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Mike,



If you gotta have that thing, then figure out some way to mount it

  upstream of the boost pump. The boost pump being on or off

will not affect the fuel flow reading other than a momentary blip  

when it goes on.



Bill

On Sep 29, 2009, at 12:28 PM, Mike De Lange wrote:



[quote] 



 I've heard good points and bad about the usage of a gascolator from  

 many people.  But regardless of what I may think about it one way  

 or the other, here in Canada it's law to install one so I really  

 have no choice.



 As for the placement of the fuel flow transducer, if your boost  

 pump is off does that affect your fuel flow reading at all?  I can  

 see the benefit of putting it where you suggest since it also  

 eliminates another run through the firewall.



 Mike



 ---

Vanremog(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Bob-

  

 Please explain how this would occur provided that the device were properly  installed and purged of water before flight.

  

 -GV 

  

  In a message dated 9/29/2009 9:28:37 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,  panamared505(at)brier.net writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    RV-List message posted by: "Panama Red"    <panamared505(at)brier.net>



 	  Quote: 	
		   To each his own, but my money (and    rear end) is on the simple physics of a 

 gascolator.


	


Simple    physics of the gascolator may get one killed while in sustained 

inverted    flight!



Bob

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"  ========================  ties  Day  ================================================               - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS  ================================================             - List Contribution Web Site  sp;                             ===================================================



	


  [quote][b]

panamared505(at)brier.net
Guest

Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 7:05 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

 	  Quote: 	
		      

   Bob-

    

   Please explain how this would occur provided that the device were    properly installed and purged of water before flight.

    

   -GV 

    

      In a message dated 9/29/2009 9:28:37 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, panamared505(at)brier.net (panamared505(at)brier.net) writes:

    	  Quote: 	
		  -->      RV-List message posted by: "Panama Red" <panamared505(at)brier.net (panamared505(at)brier.net)>



 	  Quote: 	
		        To each his own, but my money (and rear end) is on the simple physics of a      

 gascolator.


	


Simple physics of the gascolator may get one      killed while in sustained 

inverted    flight!



Bob

	


	
 

  

I  agree if properly installed and the entire fuel system is purged of water prior  to flight.  So then what is the purpose of a gascolator?   <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"  /> 

  

In my  fuel injected system and most others that I know of, there is a very fine fuel  filter prior to the high pressure boost pump, to protect the boost pump.   Therefore if one had a gascolator after the fuel filter, the gascolator would  not filter out any large debris.  On the other hand, if one did not have a  fuel filter prior to the cascolator the possible debris caught by the gascolator  may then end up back in the fuel flow once gravity is reversed in reference to  the gascolator (inverted flight).    

  

I  assume, but may be wrong, if the gascolator did collect water while upright,  then wouldn’t this water then enter the fuel system while inverted?  I have always thought that the force  that made the gascolator work was gravity, reverse gravity and it does not  work?  How many pilots are able to  do an engine restart while inverted?   The obvious answer is to roll upright and attempt to start the engine,  but trust me, when the engine quits while inverted, it gets real exciting,  especially if one is foolish enough to be at a critically low  altitude. 

  

In  my 30 years of flying, I have only found water in the fuel once.  That was  after I left the RV out in the rain with the fuel caps removed from the tank (a  long story).  I keep looking for water in my tanks, especially since I  hanger my RV with tanks 1/4 to 1/2 full.  Disappointed am I, that l find no  water in the tanks.  I have found  the entire outside of the aircraft wet from sweat/humidity on rainy days while  in the hanger.  I have often opined  that the RV would be dryer if I parked it in the rain rather than in the  hanger!  But still no water in the  fuel tanks! 

  

Back  to the original question, if there is no water in the fuel system and the fuel  filter eliminates all the fuel debris in the system, what is the purpose of the  gascolator? 

  

Bob 

RV6  "Wicked Witch of the West"

   [quote][b]

rembree(at)sympatico.ca
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:20 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Panama Red wrote:  	  Quote: 	
		                  	  Quote: 	

          Bob-

     Please explain how this would occur provided that the device were properly installed and purged of water before flight.

     -GV 

          In a message dated 9/29/2009 9:28:37 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, panamared505(at)brier.net (panamared505(at)brier.net) writes:

      	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV-List message posted by: "Panama Red" <panamared505(at)brier.net (panamared505(at)brier.net)>

 > To each his own, but my money (and rear end) is on the simple physics of a 

 > gascolator.

 Simple physics of the gascolator may get one killed while in sustained 

 inverted flight!

 Bob

I agree if properly installed and the entire fuel system is purged of water prior to flight.  So then what is the purpose of a gascolator?     

In my fuel injected system and most others that I know of, there is a very fine fuel filter prior to the high pressure boost pump, to protect the boost pump.  Therefore if one had a gascolator after the fuel filter, the gascolator would not filter out any large debris.  On the other hand, if one did not have a fuel filter prior to the cascolator the possible debris caught by the gascolator may then end up back in the fuel flow once gravity is reversed in reference to the gascolator (inverted flight).     

I assume, but may be wrong, if the gascolator did collect water while upright, then wouldn’t this water then enter the fuel system while inverted?  I have always thought that the force that made the gascolator work was gravity, reverse gravity and it does not work?  How many pilots are able to do an engine restart while inverted?  The obvious answer is to roll upright and attempt to start the engine, but trust me, when the engine quits while inverted, it gets real exciting, especially if one is foolish enough to be at a critically low altitude.   

In my 30 years of flying, I have only found water in the fuel once.  That was after I left the RV out in the rain with the fuel caps removed from the tank (a long story).  I keep looking for water in my tanks, especially since I hanger my RV with tanks 1/4 to 1/2 full.  Disappointed am I, that l find no water in the tanks.  I have found the entire outside of the aircraft wet from sweat/humidity on rainy days while in the hanger.  I have often opined that the RV would be dryer if I parked it in the rain rather than in the hanger!  But still no water in the fuel tanks!   

Back to the original question, if there is no water in the fuel system and the fuel filter eliminates all the fuel debris in the system, what is the purpose of the gascolator?   

Bob   

RV6 "Wicked Witch of the West"   

 We had this discussion a long time ago.

 Rain does not have to be the source of the water. Water that is dissolved in gasoline forms ice crystals when exposed to very cold temperatures.  It is difficult to remove all of the ice crystals through the drains, and not possible if they form while flying. Small ice crystals will plug filters but not gascolators. Gary Legare experimented with putting water in a filter and freezing it. He said that he was still able to flow fuel through the frozen filter but that was not a true model of ice crystals being deposited on the surface of a filter. 

 Forgetting about acro or any other unusual circumstances, very cold temperatures equals the need for a gascolator.

 Roger Embree

    [quote][b]

aerobubba(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:23 am Post subject: Fuel System Diagram

Bob-



 	  Quote: 	
		  I assume, but may be wrong, if the gascolator did collect water while 

upright, then wouldn't this water then enter the fuel system while 

inverted?


	


Nope.  The last gascolator I was in had a screen that would protect against

that, as well as the outflow port being configured as a bit of a standpipe

when inverted. 



 	  Quote: 	
		   but trust me, when the 

engine quits while inverted, it gets real exciting....


	


That was a standard training exercise.   

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  In my 30 years of flying, I have only found water in the fuel once. 


	


Sounds like you've been in the enviable position of only flying airplanes

that've been hangared.  

 

 	  Quote: 	
		  Back to the original question, if there is no water in the fuel system 

and the fuel filter eliminates all the fuel debris in the system, what 

is the purpose of the gascolator?

 
	


To the first part, water can be laying along the juncture of ribs and the

bottom skin.  It won't always readily move to the sump, and you can tap

clear samples on preflight and still have water and other trash in the

tanks.  Acro, or even the vibration of normal flight can cause it to

migrate to the pick ups.  This was a documented issue with certain

certificated aircraft, especially one with flush fuel caps.



To the second part, the filter doesn't eliminate the debris, it collects it

at one non-drainable point.  I can't imagine a scenario where there'd be

enough trash to plug a filter, but water is another story.  



Most people will never experience power loss due to contaminants, but it

has happened.  Most people won't experience a spar failure, but I still

prefer to wear a parachute while flying acro.  To each his own, as long as

an objective risk analysis has been made.        



glen matejcek

aerobubba(at)earthlink.net

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