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Door-I'm the guy.

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john(at)jpkoonce.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:21 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

A friend told me that I made your discussions.  I lost the door on  

takeoff last week.



A fly-in was finishing up when a pilot friend asked me for a ride in  

my RV 10.  I had had it parked on the ramp most of the day for static  

display.

I'm a Urologist and was on call, but staying in the local area would  

still not put me more than 30 min from the hospital if I got called  

for an emergency.  We taxied out for a quick spin.  I'm very aware of  

the door problem and have a double check for the door.  I personally  

close both doors on both sides and check security front and aft both  

visually and with hand pressure.  When we got in I checked his side as  

I usually do and closed my own door.  I keep the passenger seat  

forward and it makes it difficult to hand pressure check the aft pin  

because of the closeness of the seat to the door.  Visually it looked  

fine.  During taxi I of course got paged and this distracted me from  

the flying.  I handled the page and we continued taxi.

The passenger is a pilot who built, flew and ultimately sold an RV 6.   

I'm suspicious this made me a bit cavalier about pre flight steps.  We  

had already done our run up sequence and started our takeoff roll  

fairly quickly.  We had lifted off and were climbing at about 80-90  

knots when the door shifted out.  It happened very quickly, went on  

out, twisted on the hinges and departed.  It did not strike the  

airframe.  We continued the climb, did a go round, and landed  

uneventfully.  Except for the noise the aircraft handled without  

problems.  We retrieved the door and there is surprisingly little  

damage.  The plexiglass has two cracks about 3-4 inches.   

Interestingly enough the complete hinge assembly remained attached to  

the airframe.  The attach point to the door is doubled firbeglass and  

the fibreglass layer attached to the hinge stayed with the hinge.  The  

bolts pulled thru the outer door fibreglass skin.  The paint remained  

intact and there is almost no visible damage to the outer skin of the  

door.  The other aircraft with the hard landing had similar findings  

after I reviewed his pictures.



The door departed because the aft pin wasn't engaged.  No aircraft  

component failed.  I have the lights installed for the doors, but  

could have missed this with the distractions.   I had to readjust them  

in the past because the pin is close enough to the magnetic reed that   

it sensed the door closed even with the pin outside the engagement  

block.  I think the best way to manage this is to hand pressure check  

the engagement of the pin as well as visually check it.  My visual  

check wasn't enough.  The handle on the door is almost directly over  

the front pin, so pulling shut the door seats that easily.   When the  

door swings in, it is very easy for the aft door to twist and not slip  

properly into the aircraft door frame.  Rotating the door handle gives  

a secure tight feel even when the aft pin is not engaged, but just  

simply sliding outside the doorframe on the aircraft skin.  The front  

pin pulls it tight.  Once rolling, I assume the positive pressure from  

the vents internally on the door, combined with the negative pressure  

on the door surface eventually overwhelms the front pin and at that  

point it goes very quickly.



Both of us in the aircraft were experienced pilots, and as well the  

aircraft really never got above 90-100 knots, or above 1000 ft AGL.   

Should the pin hold enough to get to altitude or 160 knots, I'm not  

sure what would happen, as the wind effect is impressive.  Again, the  

aircraft handled fine.  Hopefully this note will help others to avoid  

this event.



As far as suggested solutions to manage this problem, I am not  

convinced that the safety wire technique would work effectively, but I  

certainly would encourage it.  For a urologist, scrotal  

reconstructions pay very well.  Please be sure your health insurance  

is current.

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:53 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

Congratulations on landing safely; perhaps a way could be found on the

interior façade to allow "feeling" the pins. Fortunately I chose not to have

the façade so I feel the pins, each side, fore and aft, twice; pins are

check after loading and before takeoff and I do it. I have missed the

passenger door rear pin once (after loading) but caught it immediately by

feeling the pins fore and aft.  I have not installed the light system. I

don't intend to install the safety wire since at 65 I still use mine. I have

two back seat options ages 10 and 13.



--

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

Thanks for the info John and for being so candid on the cause. Just another reason to not be distracted on pre take off checks 



 I agree the reeds are questionable if installed wrong or flimsy . I made brackets for mine which hold them in alignment very well.  Glad you and your passenger came out unscathed.....BTW....I love my Urologist...and so should every man on this forum...



Rick Sked

N246RS

Flying fun

Do not archive

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



--

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

IMOP make the pins longer and build up the interior of the cabin top so that when the door is closed with the pins engaged C the cabin top is touching the inside of the door. That way there is no guess work involved as there would be if one is guestimating the gap between cabin top flange and inside surface of the door C especially alone the entire bottom edge of the cabin top/door interface.



My pins go 1/4inch beyond the two aluminum fuselage frames C for and aft frames.

John #409 C the lager C just finished an RC foam sloper so I could have that feeling of entirely completing something.



[quote] From: dlm46007(at)cox.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: Door-I'm the guy.

 Date: Fri C 2 Oct 2009 16:49:53 -0700

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

concur on pin length; I advised Vans earlier that their supplied  pins already cut to length were barely sufficient if they were placed exactly  where the Van's engineers wanted them. Actual placement can vary by 1/4"  depending on where the builder located the pins in the latch mechanism recess in  the door. Full circumference should be seen inside , at a minimum,  the  fuselage door post when the pin is in the locked  position

   From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com  [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of John  Gonzalez

Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 6:09 PM

To: RV 10  group

Subject: RE: Door-I'm the guy.

IMOP make the pins longer and build up the interior of the cabin top  so that when the door is closed with the pins engaged, the cabin top is touching  the inside of the door. That way there is no guess work involved as there would  be if one is guestimating the gap between cabin top flange and inside surface of  the door, especially alone the entire bottom edge of the cabin top/door  interface. 

 My pins go 1/4inch beyond the two aluminum fuselage frames, for and aft  frames.

 John #409, the lager, just finished an RC foam sloper so I could have that  feeling of entirely completing something.

[quote] From:  dlm46007(at)cox.net

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE:  Door-I'm the guy.

 Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 16:49:53  -0700

 --> RV10-List message posted by: "David McNeill"  <dlm46007(at)cox.net>

 Congratulations on landing safely;  perhaps a way could be found on the

 interior façade to allow "feeling"  the pins. Fortunately I chose not to have

 the façade so I feel the pins,  each side, fore and aft, twice; pins are

 check after loading and before  takeoff and I do it. I have missed the

 passenger door rear pin once  (after loading) but caught it immediately by

 feeling the pins fore and  aft. I have not installed the light system. I

 don't intend to install  the safety wire since at 65 I still use mine. I have

 two back seat  options ages 10 and 13.

 --

ricksked(at)embarqmail.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:45 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

That's really how a properly fit door should be...IMHO...FWIW...you can't latch my doors with a pin out of the socket Rick SkedN246RS

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

From:  John Gonzalez 

Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 18:09:18 -0700

To: RV 10 group<rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door-I'm the guy.

 IMOP make the pins longer and build up the interior of the cabin top so tha= t when the door is closed with the pins engaged=2C the cabin top is touchin= g the inside of the door. That way there is no guess work involved as there=  would be if one is guestimating the gap between cabin top flange and insid= e surface of the door=2C especially alone the entire bottom edge of the cab= in top/door interface.

My pins go 1/4inch beyond the two=  aluminum fuselage frames=2C for and aft frames.

J= ohn #409=2C the lager=2C just finished an RC foam sloper so I could have th= at feeling of entirely completing something.

 	  Quote: 	
		   From: dlm46007(at)cox.ne= t

 To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 Subject: RE: RV10-List: Door-I'm th= e guy.

 Date: Fri=2C 2 Oct 2009 16:49:53 -0700

 --> RV10-List=  message posted by: "David McNeill" &lt=3Bdlm46007(at)cox.net>

 Cong= ratulations on landing safely=3B perhaps a way could be found on the

 i= nterior fa=E7ade to allow "feeling" the pins. Fortunately I chose not to ha= ve

 the fa=E7ade so I feel the pins=2C each side=2C fore and aft=2C twi= ce=3B pins are

 check after loading and before takeoff and I do it. I h= ave missed the

 passenger door rear pin once (after loading) but caught=  it immediately by

 feeling the pins fore and aft.  I have not installe= d the light system. I

 don't intend to install the safety wire since at=  65 I still use mine. I have

 two back seat options ages 10 and 13.

= > 

[quote] --

rebrunk42(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

I put a plastic door pull near the aft part of the door by the aft pin  

to insure a firm and solid closure.



Sent from my iPhone



Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com



On Oct 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote:



[quote] 



 Thanks for the info John and for being so candid on the cause. Just  

 another reason to not be distracted on pre take off checks



 I agree the reeds are questionable if installed wrong or flimsy . I  

 made brackets for mine which hold them in alignment very well.  Glad  

 you and your passenger came out unscathed.....BTW....I love my  

 Urologist...and so should every man on this forum...



 Rick Sked

 N246RS

 Flying fun

 Do not archive

 Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T



 --

sportpilot

Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Posts: 2
Location: Waycross, Georgia

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:58 am Post subject: Re: Door-I'm the guy.

I just finished installing the door latch last week and I can readily see what I think is the problem.  the door is flexible fore and aft, and the rear end tends to shift out of the frame when closing.  And The gasket wants to push the door out.  I opened and closed about 100 times from the outside and consistently the rear end wants to ride out.  To me it seems the alternate pull handle near the rear of the door is a very safe and operational fix, and a careful visual check of the rear door frame to be sure it has seated firmly against the gasket.  then operate the handle to extend the pins.  Also, you can pick up a few fractional inches of pin extension by sliding the rack gear out one or 2 teeth on the cog before assembly, just as long as you have full retraction.  Just my 2 cents.

_________________
Claude
KAYS airport
Building RV 10

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:52 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

John,

  

 I'm glad that all ended well without major damage  to you plane or person. I've had doors come open on Beechcraft  planes  I've owned but the door hinges forward so other than an annoyance it's not such  a big deal like it is on an RV10.

  

 For whatever it's worth, because of all the issues  that have occurred with doors coming open, I never allow a passenger to close  the door. I stay outside of the airplane until the passengers are loaded in,  then I close the passenger door from the outside myself and assure that I  have a positive lock and can obviously see that the pins are in. Once in and  started I have the warning lights at the top of the panel and that is part  of my check. 

  

 I know for me, because of all the incidences, the  doors are one of my top pre-takeoff checks.

  

 Wayne Edgerton

 N602WT

    [quote][b]

johngoodman

Joined: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 530
Location: GA

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Door-I'm the guy.

 	  Quote: 	
		  I never allow a passenger to close the door. 	




It's a sad day when a pilot cannot allow a passenger to close his own door. I guess cracking the door open during long taxis on hot days is out.



The door design is flawed and needs to be changed.

John

_________________
#40572 Phase One complete in 2011

rbibb

Joined: 16 Jul 2009
Posts: 37

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:55 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

You know, when I was at Oshkosh I paid the $50 so I could get a demo ride in

the -10.  I'd just bought a partially finished kit and figured I really

ought to make sure I liked the airplane.  Not being a rookie and all I did

think it a bit odd that I wasn't allowed to latch the door....



I'd love to re-engineer that latch and offer a after-market fix for this but

my fuselage kit just shipped so I'm a ways away from even thinking about the

doors but when I do I hope to come up with something more foolproof.  I'm

thinking some sort of bottom latch that engages at the sill such that, even

in the event of it not being completely clamped down the door could only

partially open even under air loads.



But there's a lot of work to get this right and I might be too impatient to

put in the effort required.  Safe to say I'll do something more than the

basic stock arrangement.  Time will tell...



Richard Bibb

972-771-2598

972-835-5979 mobile

 

 



--

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:16 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

John,



Thanks so much for your account of the episode.  I was starting to get a little bored with my routine:  I push on the back of each door just before take-off.  Now I know I'll stick with that checklist item for good.

  

What type of door seal do you have?  I wrote a few days ago that I think the Van's bulb seal does a disservice to being able to effectively close the door.  I have foam seals that IMO work much better.

 

Another point is that if the pins are installed per the plans, the bevels get installed with the long edge outboard.  Presumably, that ensures more engagement with the fuselage uprights since the long edge of the pin is outboard, contacting metal.  But that arrangement also helps the pins miss the hole unless the door is pulled all the way in during latching.  When I re-rigged my doors I turned the bevel around to face "angled edge out", so that the pins would be more likely to engage.  The bevel then helps pull the door in, even if the door isn't quite closed. Since I also installed metal guide blocks at the same time, I was sure I was getting a good, solid, metal-on-metal pin engagement.

  

You did a great job Flying The Plane.  Even the other -10 that had the tail strike seemed to land well enough.  We should take away from this that a lost door clearly doesn't have to result in an accident if we remember to fly the plane.

  

******Shameless plug warning******



Insurance pays (AirCrafters) well for door repairs, too, in case you don't want to do it yourself--I never do MY own surgery 



Best Regards,



Dave Saylor

  AirCrafters LLC



  [quote][b]

lbgjb10

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 67

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Door-I'm the guy.

glad good piloting allowed for a good outcome.  I agree with Wayne--except for my copilot/cobuilder, (and even sometimes with her) I always close the door from the outside.  easy to see that things are ok.  We also use safety straps.  with my door ajar for taxi, it's cool enough.  Does seem to me that someone could engineer much longer pins, and have a double set, fore and aft.  larry

_________________
Larry and Gayle N104LG

dlm46007(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

I had to close the doors on my C177RG for 29 years. The aft pin was pulled

in the same way as the 10 and if not careful of the feel, the passenger

could just keep pushing on the handle and shear the latch pin it which case

the door had to disassembled to be locked and the aircraft flown to where it

could await a new part from Cessna. Also I have never been asked by a crew

member aboard the Boeings to close a door. A friend and I discussed a design

this morning that would not only pin the aft door frame with sufficient

length but would also put a vertical pin in the door sill. Since we have

unfinished door on the inside, another friend and I will discuss the

mechanics of a real fix tomorrow AM during the regular breakfast flight. 



--

wayne.e(at)grandecom.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:59 am Post subject: Door-I'm the guy.

John,

  

 I use my door for cracking open for cooling on hot  days while taxing. You get plenty of air flow through just one door. I wedge my  hand in behind the door handle to able to old it tight enough. It works fine  that way.

  

 Wayne Edgerton

 N602WT

  

  

             Time:      06:49:59 AM PST    US            Subject:      Re: Door-I'm the        guy.            From:      "johngoodman" <johngoodman(at)earthlink.net (johngoodman(at)earthlink.net)>       

      

       

      > I never allow a passenger to close the  door.

      

       

      It's a sad day when a pilot cannot allow a  passenger to close his own door. I guess

       cracking the door open during long taxis on hot days is  out.

      

      The  door design is flawed and needs to be changed.

       John

      

       --------

      #40572 QB Fuselage, wings finished.  Finish Kit progressing. Engine &amp; Panel

       delivery soon.

      N711JG  reserved

      



    [quote][b]

hotwheels

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Posts: 240

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:46 am Post subject: Re: Door-I'm the guy.

Photos?



Thanks,

Jay

 	  rebrunk42(at)gmail.com wrote: 	
		  I put a plastic door pull near the aft part of the door by the aft pin  

to insure a firm and solid closure.



Sent from my iPhone



Robert E. Brunkenhoefer

Brunkenhoefer Law Firm, P.C.

520 Lawrence St.

Corpus Christi, Texas 78401

Phone: 361-888-8808

Facsimile: 361-888-6753

robert(at)brunklaw.com



On Oct 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, ricksked(at)embarqmail.com wrote

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