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Watons's RV-10 power distribution

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:57 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

At 03:00 PM 10/1/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  Some confusion here perhaps.  I'm not using Visio - rather I'm using 

the ExpressSCH product that Vern has linked to at his site.  It does 

have a bitmap export function which I just tried and attached the results.

Looks like that works ok.


	


   You need fusible links upstream of your ov crowbar

   breakers, NOT pluggable fuses in the fuse blocks.



   You're missing a diode at the cross-feed contactor.



   Where are your batteries mounted? 2AWG is too big

   for forward mounted batteries. Suggest 4AWG.



        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

Bob, thanks for giving this a review.  I've responded below:



Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>



   You need fusible links upstream of your ov crowbar

   breakers, NOT pluggable fuses in the fuse blocks.

My thinking was the fuse is just protecting the wire to the pullable 
	


breaker.  The wire is 16AWG and the fuse a 15amp.  Then the breaker is a 

5amp.  But I think what you are telling me is that the fuse could defeat 

the whole purpose of having the pullable breaker.  And that either a 

fusible link is needed to protect the wire or a direct connection to the 

buss.  Is that correct?

 	  Quote: 	
		  

   You're missing a diode at the cross-feed contactor.

Yes, drawing fixed.
	


 	  Quote: 	
		  

   Where are your batteries mounted? 2AWG is too big

   for forward mounted batteries. Suggest 4AWG.

It's an RV10 with both batteries in the rear.  So I used 2AWG for the 
	


run to the starter and for the interbattery connections.  The other 

battery has a (previously unmarked) 8AWG wire for the other run to the 

front.

My analysis suggested that the 8AWG is enough for the 20amp Alt side of 

the circuit even in a crossfeed situation.



Thanks again

Bill "finishing up the panel wiring" Watson

Main_Power_Distribution5.5.bmp

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 9:23 pm Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

 	  Quote: 	
		  My thinking was the fuse is just protecting the wire to the pullable 

breaker.  The wire is 16AWG and the fuse a 15amp.  Then the breaker 

is a 5amp.  But I think what you are telling me is that the fuse 

could defeat the whole purpose of having the pullable breaker.  And 

that either a fusible link is needed to protect the wire or a direct 

connection to the buss.  Is that correct?


	


   Fuses are so much faster than breakers that

   you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A

   breaker. There's a reason for the fusible

   link depicted in the Z-figures.



 	  Quote: 	
		  It's an RV10 with both batteries in the rear.  So I used 2AWG for 

the run to the starter and for the interbattery connections.  The 

other battery has a (previously unmarked) 8AWG wire for the other 

run to the front.

My analysis suggested that the 8AWG is enough for the 20amp Alt side 

of the circuit even in a crossfeed situation.


	


  Do you intend to load the aux battery for cranking?

  If batteries are in the rear, then contactors are

  in the rear and crossfeed contactor is on firewall

  to give you a fat-terminal,  power distribution point

  at the cross-feed contactor.



  Use 4AWG welding cable off each battery terminal

  to contactors and ground. 2AWG for run forward to

  the starter contactor.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 1:13 pm Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

> My thinking was the fuse is just protecting the wire to the pullable 

> breaker.  The wire is 16AWG and the fuse a 15amp.  Then the breaker 

> is a 5amp.  But I think what you are telling me is that the fuse 

> could defeat the whole purpose of having the pullable breaker.  And 

> that either a fusible link is needed to protect the wire or a direct 

> connection to the buss.  Is that correct?

   Fuses are so much faster than breakers that

   you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A

   breaker. There's a reason for the fusible

   link depicted in the Z-figures.

I must be back level on my printed out Z figs.  The one I have has that 

circuit connected directly to buss but in either case I get the point.  

I'm going to add 2 fusible links (22AWG based) to the circuit and take 

the power directly from the power feeds. 

 	  Quote: 	
		  > It's an RV10 with both batteries in the rear.  So I used 2AWG for the 

> run to the starter and for the interbattery connections.  The other 

> battery has a (previously unmarked) 8AWG wire for the other run to 

> the front.

> My analysis suggested that the 8AWG is enough for the 20amp Alt side 

> of the circuit even in a crossfeed situation.

  Do you intend to load the aux battery for cranking?

  If batteries are in the rear, then contactors are

  in the rear and crossfeed contactor is on firewall

  to give you a fat-terminal,  power distribution point

  at the cross-feed contactor.

  Use 4AWG welding cable off each battery terminal

  to contactors and ground. 2AWG for run forward to

  the starter contactor.

I did this a little different.  I have all 3 contactors back with the 

batteries.  Then a 2AWG running forward for the starter circuit and fuse 

board 1 with the majority of the load.  Then a 8AWG line running forward 

to the other fuse board.  The batteries are twin PC680s (pic attached). 

  I can crank with both batteries or with 1.  The plan is to generally 

just use 1.  All of this was done over a year ago so it's all installed 

at this point.

- Why a Z14?  In the end, I fell for the simple symmetry of the whole 

thing over an E-bus solution.  A bit irrational with some extra cost but 

it's working for me so far.  It is an all electric a/c with my dream IFR 

panel (3 GRTs, G430w).  No electronic ignition though. 

One of the things I found myself doing when IFR in my Maule, is sitting 

on the ramp getting a clearance, programming the G300XL, and more 

recently watching the Nexrad on the G396.  For example, a year after 

Katrina I was sitting at the GA New Orlean's airport waiting to get past 

a line of buildups.  The FBO was operational but their weather terminal 

was down so I spent 2 or 3 hours running out to the Maule checking the 

396 for a hole and otherwise figuring out when and how to escape.  I 

started to worry about having enough juice to start (I've never figured 

out what kind of time I would have in such a situation).  Then when 

things opened up a bit, I shut everything down because I was keeping to 

the practice of not starting with the avionics online.  Then I had to 

load a plan and wait for the 396 to get it's Nexrad back.  All the time 

trying not to rush to get thru the hole.

Since then based on your writings, I've started turning on my Maule 

avionics stack when needed, and keeping it on when starting.  No 

problems ever encountered of course.  But the doc for the  GRTs suggest 

that it might reduce the life of the screeens if this is done 

frequently, so...

Two things I wanted to have with my Z14. 

1) I wanted the ability to run most of my stack without worrying about 

having enough energy for the start.  I've always found that time spent 

on the ground prepping for an IFR flight, especially a single pilot 

departure into IMC, can be the most valuable in the flight.

2) I wanted to feel totally comfortable running the stack during the 

start - given the manufacturer's warning and a lifetime of perhaps 

worrying about something I didn't need to.  An un-rushed, guilt-free 

panel setup before the start is a very nice thing to have.

And then I have this dual electric system that can put 2 batteries on 

the starter if ever needed and can backup just about any electrical 

failure without much concern.  And I don't think I can get too much 

weight back there in the battery compartment - the RV10 seems to benefit 

from it.

Thanks for the review and the resources.

Bill "this thing is going to fly in 2010" Watson

 	  Quote: 	

        Bob . . .

         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

RV10_Battery_compartment_(reduced).jpg

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RV10_Panel_with_3_GRTs_(reduced).jpg

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rckol

Joined: 14 Nov 2008
Posts: 36

Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

Hi Bill,



Just curious:  Why have you wired SW01 and SW02 to disconnect both the alternator and battery at the same time instead of using the progressive transfer scheme in most of the Z diagrams?

_________________
rck

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:20 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

Ignorance perhaps.  I remember considering the 'progressive transfer' 

thing which I believe is specific and internal to the switch.  Then I 

went ahead and selected some lit rockers with the basic functions needed 

(I thought).  I may or may not have them documented correctly in the 

diagram.



Do I have a problem here?



Bill



rckol wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Hi Bill,



 Just curious:  Why have you wired SW01 and SW02 to disconnect both the alternator and battery at the same time instead of using the progressive transfer scheme in most of the Z diagrams?



 --------

 rck





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 66525#266525

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:23 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

 	  Quote: 	
		  >   Fuses are so much faster than breakers that

>   you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A

>   breaker. There's a reason for the fusible

>   link depicted in the Z-figures.

I must be back level on my printed out Z figs.  The one I have has 

that circuit connected directly to buss but in either case I get the point.


	


     Which figure are you referring to? I think I've

     had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint

     of a fuse-block since day-one . . .



 	  Quote: 	
		  I'm going to add 2 fusible links (22AWG based) to the circuit and 

take the power directly from the power feeds.


	


     Okay . . .

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:29 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

At 11:22 PM 10/4/2009, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



Hi Bill,



Just curious:  Why have you wired SW01 and SW02 to disconnect both 

the alternator and battery at the same time instead of using the 

progressive transfer scheme in most of the Z diagrams?


	


    Many moons ago, before I located progressive

    transfer switches from Carling to emulate the

    split-rocker, the Z-figures suggested that battery

    and alternator be brought ON and OFF together with

    a 2-3 switch. Even if you choose to use fuse blocks,

    the crowbar ov protection system called for an

    alternator field breaker which doubled as a means

    by which the alternator could be disabled for battery

    only, ground maintenance operations or disabled

    in flight if the regulator or alternator became

    unruly.



    There's no foundation in physics for not bringing

    the alternator and battery on and off together for

    normal operating conditions.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 7:44 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   

 <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

>>   Fuses are so much faster than breakers that

>>   you may pop a 15A fuse trying to open a 5A

>>   breaker. There's a reason for the fusible

>>   link depicted in the Z-figures.

> I must be back level on my printed out Z figs.  The one I have has 

> that circuit connected directly to buss but in either case I get the 

> point.



     Which figure are you referring to? I think I've

     had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint

     of a fuse-block since day-one . . .



Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed 
	


Turbocad awhile ago.  The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main 

Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

 	  Quote: 	
		  >     Which figure are you referring to? I think I've

>     had a fusible link coming right off the feedpoint

>     of a fuse-block since day-one . . .

Figure Z-14... I'm looking at the Adobe version since I un-installed 

Turbocad awhile ago.  The 5amp breaker is directly connected to Main 

Power Distribution Bus and the Aux Bus

http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z14N1.pdf


	


   Aha! That's an all CB airplane . . . so yes, the breaker goes

   right to the bus along with ALL OTHER BREAKERS. If you use

   a fuse block, then specialized feeder treatment for the

   alternator field breaker is indicated.

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------

tomhanaway

Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Murphy, NC

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 10:56 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

OK, I just got lost.  I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the comments...    

Z-13 shows fusible link and circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and master switch.  

Z-14 has just circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and master switch.  

Z-19 has just fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch).  

I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the fusible link helps a fuse in the fuse block.  Especially z-14 vs. z-13 and z-19.  

   

Thanks,  

Tom Hanaway  

Also working on an rv-10  

--

_________________
RV-10. Built and sold
RV-8a. Building

MauleDriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:51 am Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

I know you want Bob's response but let me see if I can share my new 

found knowledge regarding the Z13 vs. the Z14.



The Z13 "Main Distribution Bus" is a fuse panel, that is, only fuses are 

used for circuit protection.  Because you need a breaker for the Crowbar 

OV Protect module, a fusible link is used to protect the wire that runs 

to the breaker.  You don't want to connect the breaker to a fuse because 

the fuse will blow before the breaker breaks.  The fusible link will 

blow slowly and allow the breaker to function as it must for the Crowbar 

module to work.



The Z14 "Main Distribution Bus" is a regular bus bar with breakers 

attached.  In that case there is no wire running to a breaker to 

protect.  The breaker required for the OV Protection in the LR3 

controller is simply attached directly to the bus bar which is the "Main 

Distribution Bus".



Makes sense to me now!



Bill



Tom Hanaway wrote:

[quote]

 OK, I just got lost.  I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the 

 comments... 



 Z-13 shows fusible link _and _circuit breaker for alt fld between main 

 power bus and master switch.



 Z-14 has _just_ circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and 

 master switch.



 Z-19 has _just_ fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and 

 master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch).



 I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the fusible 

 link helps a fuse in the fuse block.  Especially z-14 vs. z-13 and z-19.



  



 Thanks,



 Tom Hanaway



 Also working on an rv-10



 --

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
Guest

Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:49 pm Post subject: Watons's RV-10 power distribution

At 01:43 PM 10/5/2009, you wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		  OK, I just got lost.  I looked at note 4 of appendix z and read the comments...  

 Z-13 shows fusible link and circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and master switch. 	


   Yes, Z-13 is a fuse-block bus, it COULD be a Circuit Breaker

   bus in which case it would look more like Z-14



  	  Quote: 	
		  Z-14 has just circuit breaker for alt fld between main power bus and master switch. 	


    . . . which IS a circuit breaker bus system.



  	  Quote: 	
		  Z-19 has just fusible link for alt fld between main power bus and master switch (circuit breaker is on other side of main power switch).

 I don't understand the reason for the distinctions and how the fusible link helps a fuse in the fuse block.  Especially z-14 vs. z-13 and z-19. 	


   Z-19 is also a fuse block system which means that it's

   impractical to use one of the block-mounted fuses to

   protect the extended feed-line to a crowbar tripped field

   breaker. Hence the fusible link upstream of the 5A breaker.

   It doesn't matter WHERE the breaker is along that pathway.



   Bottom line is that no link is needed when the field supply

   breaker ties directly to the bus with other breakers. When

   fuse blocks are used, the EXTENSION of the bus to a remotely

   mounted breaker gets ROBUST protection in the form of a fusible

   link.



 

        Bob . . .



         ---------------------------------------

        ( . . .  a long habit of not thinking   )

        ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )

        ( appearance of being right . . .       )

        (                                       )

        (                  -Thomas Paine 1776-  )

         ---------------------------------------



     [quote][b]

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