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Arty Trost
Joined: 25 May 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Sandy, Oregon
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 Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:38 am Post subject: Liability for selling your aircraft (was: Not Kolb related - |
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Dennis -
You wrote: "Because our homebuilt aircraft are not bound by the same certification rules as the Cessnas and Pipers, we (the builders) are not held accountable for ANYTHING that happens after we sell them."
I'm not sure if your information is accurate; and even if it is accurate, it doesn't address the concern about being sued. ANYONE can choose to sue you - regardless of how you word a stipulation, and regardless of what they write in their log book (if they bother to do so.) A close friend of mine WAS sued by the estate of the person to whom he sold his Kolb (that person crashed and killed himself.) Although David wasn't found to be at fault, it cost him over $10,000 to defend himself.
I've had the same concern, since I'm thinking about selling my Drifter. Here is a statement which a friend gave me and which I'll probably use. It is designed to make a buyer or their estate think twice about suing you - but even if this is signed and notarized ( and some sellers may also want to get the buyer's spouse to sign!) it STILL does not prevent a lawsuit. People (especially family of the deceased) don't always act rationally. You may win the lawsuit with the help of this document, but it may not prevent you from the expense of defending yourself.
I want to be very clear that I am NOT a lawyer and am not giving legal advice. I am just passing on what a friend used. If you have concerns, you should check with an attorney who specializes in aircraft.
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil>
Subject: Re: Not Kolb related - so delete
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 9:12 AM
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
possums wrote: << (SE5A) - thing in the barn. how would you go about
selling it. I don't want any liability !! >>
Possums –
This topic has been discussed before. (Remember the guy who intentionally torched his Kolb to avoid post-ownership liability?) That was totally unnecessary.
Because our homebuilt aircraft are not bound by the same certification rules as the Cessnas and Pipers, we (the builders) are not held accountable for ANYTHING that happens after we sell them. Here’s why: The owner of any Experimental/Amateur-Built aircraft must state, in the logbook, that “He (she) finds this aircraft to be airworthy, and in a safe condition to fly.” This places the airworthiness responsibility squarely with the buyer, and eliminates all liability from the seller.
As suggested earlier when this thread was discussed, if you wish to add additional safeguards for yourself, you can always add a stipulation in your bill of sale that specifically states that the aircraft is being sold as “parts,” and is not an airworthy airplane. When your buyer finishes the airplane, it is HE who must make the legal statement in his logbook that the airplane is safe and ready to fly. So if he crashes, the legal documentation (his logbook) points only to himself.
Hope this helps …
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, 912ul, with an orphaned Powerfin in
Sandia Park, NM
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
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slyck(at)frontiernet.net
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: Liability for selling your aircraft (was: Not Kolb related - |
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It would be interesting to have some (factual) history of suits against experimentals.The family of the deceased CAN sue no matter what documents have been signed. It will be their
burden to prove liability. If the builder sold the aircraft and promptly died, thereby transferring assets to the inheritors,
and THEN the next guy crashed, it would present a challenge to the $$$ seekers because there would be no
manufacturer existent to pursue.
A personal bankruptcy would also squelch the greedy.
BB
On 7, Oct 2009, at 2:29 PM, TheWanderingWench wrote:
[quote]Dennis -
You wrote: "Because our homebuilt aircraft are not bound by the same certification rules as the Cessnas and Pipers, we (the builders) are not held accountable for ANYTHING that happens after we sell them."
I'm not sure if your information is accurate; and even if it is accurate, it doesn't address the concern about being sued. ANYONE can choose to sue you - regardless of how you word a stipulation, and regardless of what they write in their log book (if they bother to do so.) A close friend of mine WAS sued by the estate of the person to whom he sold his Kolb (that person crashed and killed himself.) Although David wasn't found to be at fault, it cost him over $10,000 to defend himself.
I've had the same concern, since I'm thinking about selling my Drifter. Here is a statement which a friend gave me and which I'll probably use. It is designed to make a buyer or their estate think twice about suing you - but even if this is signed and notarized ( and some sellers may also want to get the buyer's spouse to sign!) it STILL does not prevent a lawsuit. People (especially family of the deceased) don't always act rationally. You may win the lawsuit with the help of this document, but it may not prevent you from the expense of defending yourself.
I want to be very clear that I am NOT a lawyer and am not giving legal advice. I am just passing on what a friend used. If you have concerns, you should check with an attorney who specializes in aircraft.
Arty Trost
Sandy, Oregon
www.LessonsFromTheEdge.com/uladventure2009.htm
"Life's a daring adventure or nothing"
Helen Keller
"I refuse to tip toe through life just to arrive safely at death."
--- On Wed, 10/7/09, Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil (Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil)> wrote:
| Quote: |
From: Kirby, Dennis CTR USAF AFMC MDA/AL <Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil (Dennis.Kirby(at)kirtland.af.mil)>
Subject: Re: Not Kolb related - so delete
To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)
Date: Wednesday, October 7, 2009, 9:12 AM
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
possums wrote: << (SE5A) - thing in the barn. how would you go about
selling it. I don't want any liability !! >>
Possums –
This topic has been discussed before. (Remember the guy who intentionally torched his Kolb to avoid post-ownership liability?) That was totally unnecessary.
Because our homebuilt aircraft are not bound by the same certification rules as the Cessnas and Pipers, we (the builders) are not held accountable for ANYTHING that happens after we sell them. Here’s why: The owner of any Experimental/Amateur-Built aircraft must state, in the logbook, that “He (she) finds this aircraft to be airworthy, and in a safe condition to fly.” This places the airworthiness responsibility squarely with the buyer, and eliminates all liability from the seller.
As suggested earlier when this thread was discussed, if you wish to add additional safeguards for yourself, you can always add a stipulation in your bill of sale that specifically states that the aircraft is being sold as “parts,” and is not an airworthy airplane. When your buyer finishes the airplane, it is HE who must make the legal statement in his logbook that the airplane is safe and ready to fly. So if he crashes, the legal documentation (his logbook) points only to himself.
Hope this helps …
Dennis Kirby
Mark-III, 912ul, with an orphaned Powerfin in
Sandia Park, NM
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
| Quote: | http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-Listhttp========================
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[url=http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Kolb-List]<Aircraft Liability wording.doc>[b]
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JetPilot
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1246
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Liability for selling your aircraft (was: Not Kolb relat |
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No matter what kind of release the buyer of an aircraft signs, the family can still sue you. The buyer of an airplane may be able to sign many of high rights away under the law, but he is NOT able to sign the rights of other people away ( His family ). Those are the ones that will sue you if something happens and the buyer is hurt or killed, even with a rock solid Release of liability.
Bankruptcy laws have changed and made it much more difficult in the last couple years, don't make the mistake of thinking that you can just declare bankruptcy and get out of a lawsuit.
There are lots of things to think about, and there will always be a friend that will pretend to know aviation law when he in fact does not, and tell you that you will be OK with a release. I got the above information from an aviation attorney.
Mike
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_________________
"NO FEAR" - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!!
Kolb MK-III Xtra, 912-S |
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Richard Pike
Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 1671
Location: Blountville, Tennessee
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| Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Liability for selling your aircraft (was: Not Kolb relat |
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[quote="slyck(at)frontiernet.net"]It would be interesting to have some (factual) history of suits against experimentals. <snip>
BB
[quote]
All I have is one bit of info - about ten years ago our EAA chapter president was giving rides in a home built gyrocopter and had his passenger sign a hold harmless agreement prior to the flight. A bolt that held the collective rod together came out - it was closed casket funeral time.
The passengers widow chose not to sue because her husband had signed the hold harmless agreement, and we heard that she had talked about it with a lawyer.
On the other hand, one widow suing another widow with minimal assets is not usually profitable... so this anecdote doesn't prove much
As Beauford says - worth what ye paid fer it.
Richard Pike
MKIII N420P (42oldPoops)
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