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keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: smoke systems

Can any of you guys who have set up custom smoke systems recommend an oil pump? Would it be easier to just go with a unit from smokingairplanes.com



Thanks

scgsmg(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: smoke systems

The smoking airplanes kit is excellent.

---

vectorwarbirds(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: smoke systems

Well I usually don't like to report back on other peoples systems but I have now seen three broken SA systems pouring oil onto the ramp at three airshows, the latest being the Wendover show.  To me using plastic fitting, tanks and hose clamps in an aircraft is just not correct.  So buyer beware because the VAL personnel and the military base powers that be take a dim view of  gallons of smoke oil pouring onto their ramp.

 

 For your info we only use aircraft grade components in our smoke systems, than just means the best, no plastic.  The pump we use is the Flojet 2130-312A in 24volt.

 

 Happy smokin!!

 

 Vector Warbirds USA

 

 

   

 

   

 

 --

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: smoke systems

Ditto. Smoking Airplane's system is excellent. ...Blitz



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 6, 2009, at 8:10 PM, scgsmg(at)bellsouth.net wrote:



[quote] 



 The smoking airplanes kit is excellent.

 ---

scgsmg(at)bellsouth.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: smoke systems

SA fixed the plastic fitting issue several years ago.



I've had mine installed for 3 years - about 25 airshows or so - with no problems.



S

---

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:24 am Post subject: smoke systems

I found a 'red tagged' (bad bearings) fuel pump that put out about 30 gals  an hour.  I used the old oil dilution valve as a on/off valve.  It is  in line with the power wire to the pump.  When I close the smoke switch,  power goes to the valve to open and than the pump comes on.  Switch off,  the pump shuts down, and the valve is spring loaded closed.

  

 I mounted the injection points high up on the exhaust pipes.  The idea  was that the exhaust would have more time to burn the oil.  I don't  recommend that.  All the oil does not burn and get blown out the exhaust  stacks joints.  Makes a mess inside the cowl.  I recommend that  you inject the oil much lower, maybe just below the last joint.  Also  you'll need to watch how big you need to make the injector holes.  You want  them large enough so that the oil you do inject is burned totally.  Any  more than that, its gets all over the belly.

  

 I made my smoke oil tank the same size as the old ADF.  Its holds a  little over 5 gals.  It sits on the old ADF rack.  The ADF weighted 45  lbs.  A full oil tank weights about 35 lbs, so the rack can take it.   When I had the tank welded up, I designed the filler neck so that I could refill  though the access hatch just forward of the old ADF access screwed down  panel.  I just recently put a sight gage on the side of the tank.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  In a message dated 10/6/2009 11:05:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley"    <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com>



Can any of you guys who have set up    custom smoke systems recommend an oil pump? Would it be easier to just go with    a unit from smokingairplanes.com



Thanks



--------

Keith    McKinley

700HS

KFIT





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  [quote][b]

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 7:55 am Post subject: Re: smoke systems

Pappy,



So it is possible to use a fuel pump and is not necessary to use a pump designed for oil or tranny fluid? I've seen some nice pumps on the Summit Racing web site as well as nice 5 gallon aluminum fuel cells.



fuel pump is OK for smoke oil?

what size line did you run to the exhaust? and did you just weld a bung and use an AN fitting? size?



The other question is I'm guessing there should be an on off switch for the pump and a momentary switch for the solenoid. which leads to the question of a pump being on and building up too much pressure



Thanks,

cjpilot710(at)aol.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 8:28 am Post subject: smoke systems

I don't see any reason why a "fuel" pump can't be used.  Fuel would  harsher on a pump's enters than the oils that are normally used in smoke  systems.

  

 Exact size of lines and fittings are not in front of me.  Anything  with a ID of about 1/4 would be fine.

  

 What ever you use make sure that the hoses from the firewall forward  have either a metal mesh covering or some kind of fire shielding..

  

 I had a lug (AN type) welded to the stack and a probe with a .040 hole  to spray the oil.

  

 I would not worry about pressure.  If you put the two (pump and  normally closed valve) on the same circuit-  One: Switch ON,- the pump  comes on (pressure) and the valve opens.  Two; Switch OFF, pump turns off  and the valve goes closed.  These pumps do not put out that much  pressure.  Also there little reason to leave smoke pumps running more than  just few minutes.

  

 Jim "Pappy" Goolsby

  

  

  

  

  

  In a message dated 10/7/2009 11:56:52 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com writes:

  	  Quote: 	
		  -->    Yak-List message posted by: "keithmckinley"    <keith.mckinley(at)townisp.com>



Pappy,



So it is possible to    use a fuel pump and is not necessary to use a pump designed for oil or tranny    fluid? I've seen some nice pumps on the Summit Racing web site as well as nice    5 gallon aluminum fuel cells.



fuel pump is OK for smoke oil?

what    size line did you run to the exhaust? and did you just weld a bung and use an    AN fitting? size?



The other question is I'm guessing there should be an    on off switch for the pump and a momentary switch for the solenoid. which    leads to the question of a pump being on and building up too much    pressure



Thanks,



--------

Keith    McKinley

700HS

KFIT





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  [quote][b]

N642K

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 84

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: Re: smoke systems

I installed a SA kit in January after a long debate about building my own system versus using some of his components versus using the entire SA kit.



SA talked me out of just using components when he:

1.  Stated that the unit is not guaranteed if not a complete kit.

2.  Offered me a discount that nearly negated the saving of using my own tank and some components.

3.  I wanted smoke now and realized that there are lots of issues regarding pump size/output and nozzle size that I wasn't interested in resolving.  I could have saved some money but I would have been a smoke test pilot and I was more interested in smoking out my neighbors. 



It was an easy install.   Telephone support was great as I had a question or two during the actual install.



Label me very happy with the performance of the SA kit.

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keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:37 am Post subject: Re: smoke systems

thanks for the input. Looks like you're ready for some paint, but I like that bare metal look! What did you strip it with?

N642K

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 84

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: Re: smoke systems

Previous owner did the paint removal.  Said he would never do that again.  Was the toughest job he had ever done.



I know all the paint shops in Texas.  Just land at a field with a paint shop 

and the owner comes running over with a business card.  



I like it just the way it is.  If I can find an interesting/unique design I may paint it.  

I just can't get myself to spend the big $$$s for camouflage!  

Been unpainted for nearly 5 years now.  



Unfortunately the Oshkosh marshalers referred to it as the "tuna can" and a new call sign was born.



Tuna

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: smoke systems

Funny!  I think it looks great.



Keith

Mozam

Joined: 24 Nov 2006
Posts: 85

Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: smoke systems

Keith,



My experience has been:

1.  Lots of pumps will work equally well.  But get a pump with a replaceable impeller/diaphragm.  You WILL end up replacing it someday.

2.  You only need one injector to make good smoke.  Photos/personal observations show no difference from my one injector vs others with two.

3.  Put the one injector on the left side (under your left foot when you sit in plane).  You will get much less smoke in cockpit.  Right side smoke blows up over the wing and gets into the cockpit more.  Left side seems to keep to the belly, and thus exits out the back better.

4.  Buy an injector from Smoking Airplanes (homemade ones do NOT work as well).

5.  Put the injector just above the "Y" in the left side exhaust.  Putting it higher on the exhaust pipe justs gets more smoke in the cockpit (as it leaks out every joint).  (Imagine how much CO we must be breathing!)

6.  Adjust the flow to .6 - .7 gal/min for best smoke (and little oil on belly).



Have fun,

Steve Dalton

viperdoc(at)mindspring.co
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:48 am Post subject: smoke systems

Don't have to imagine how much CO you are breathing. I know.

Doc



--

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:06 am Post subject: Re: smoke systems

Gang,



We have installed several SA kits for customers in CJ's and even an L-39 with no reported problems.  I have had it in the Yak-50 for 3 years without any issues and it routinely sees 6+ G's.  It makes very good smoke.  With  our fabrication capabilities it would not be difficult to build them from scratch, but unless you need an airshow size tank (larger than 5 gallons), it's just not cost effective for us to fabricate them. John is great with customer support and the installation is straight forward.   Smoking Airplanes is the way to go.



Barry



P.S.  Take Pappy's advice and put the injectors at least mid way down the stack.  Additionlly, the right amount of oil under the right pressure (at least 40 psi) and a good injector make all the difference in how clean the burn is.

_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: smoke systems

What's a ballpark price on an SA system?

  

  

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com> 10/9/2009 8:47 AM >>>

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com>
	




Don't have to imagine how much CO you are breathing. I know.

Doc



--

byronmfox(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: smoke systems

Go to smokingairplanes.com for pricing



Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 9, 2009, at 8:20 AM, "Rico Jaeger" <rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us (rijaeger(at)wausau.k12.wi.us)> wrote:



[quote] What's a ballpark price on an SA system?

  

  

 



 	  Quote: 	
		  >> "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)> 10/9/2009 8:47 AM >>>

--> Yak-List message posted by: "Roger Kemp M.D." <viperdoc(at)mindspring.com (viperdoc(at)mindspring.com)>
	




Don't have to imagine how much CO you are breathing. I know.

Doc



--

barryhancock

Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 285

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:41 am Post subject: Re: smoke systems

Guys...for comparison's sake.....



The lead aircraft is me in the -50 with a single injector.  The smoker on the left is a custom system with 2 injectors (a tad more dense), the one on the right is custom single injector.  Custom systems run about 2x the SA system...

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_________________
Barry Hancock
Worldwide Warbirds, Inc.
www.worldwidewarbirds.com

keithmckinley

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 434

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:42 am Post subject: Re: smoke systems

 	  barryhancock wrote: 	
		    Custom systems run about 2x the SA system... 	




I'll agree the SA system is complete and probably easy and simple to install. No doubt the one stop customer service is a bonus as well, but I respectfully disagree on the above statement. I can get a custom aluminum tank (5 gal) with 4 flanges and all the fittings for mounting a pump, vent, level sending unit, as well as filler neck, etc for 300 bucks. The tank will be sized to fit exactly where I need it. The pump SA uses is readily available for around a 100 bucks so that leaves a nozzle, regulator valve, some hose , AN fittings and a switch. I'm sure those items will be under 475 bucks. 



Not sure what I'll do but that's why I started the thread. No doubt SA is well respected  for their gear.



btw...Great Photo!



Keith

Sonic1

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 21
Location: Vancouver, BC

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: smoke systems

Found this....



http://www.acroflyer.com/smoke_system.htm

Jeff.

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